.375 should be banned from buffalo hunts!

[michael458]

The .375 caliber should not be used for buffalo hunting!

.................................... I knew you were going to step in it up to you eyeballs with that statement, here in the land of 375 RAT Caliber Worship! HEH HEH...........

Many of you know my opinion of 375 caliber anything...... Those that do not, I DESPISE 375 caliber, I loath it, I would not even use one for Rats...... I would not allow one in my Lab or on my range! I hate to admit however, and it pains me to do so, 375 caliber seems to be the choice for those Sissy Boys that cannot learn to shoot larger calibers, and desire to chase buffalo, and possibly a good choice for the Ladies out there that wish to hunt buffalo. Also a good choice for PH's to always recommend, that realize the common client hunter is not a shooter, and maybe less chance of missing the shot completely, and even then the PH most likely will have a suitable buffalo caliber to clean the mess up. So yes, I have to concede there may be instances where the 375 could be useful!

This has been the most entertaining 375 bashing thread I think I have ever seen........ HEH HEH.....

Boys and Girls, when it comes to Buffalo, they simply just do not respect Rat Calibers. I am sorry to tell you, you cannot even get their attention with the best of bullet tech. As our guy has repeated many times, not saying you can't kill one, saying that buffalo don't pay much attention to Rat calibers taking the hit. One year I was in Africa testing out the 9.3 B&M. It was a hammer on most all plains game, so good in fact that I thought maybe with the best of bullet tech it might do ok on buffalo? I took it to do some shooting with Paul Truccolo in Australia to see. After about 8-10 buffalo shot with 9.3, and the very best of CEB Raptors & North Forks, and shooting buffalo multiple times to get their attention, I put it aside and went to work with the 475 B&M, which was in test mode at the time as well. Things started working better of course. Buffalo started paying attention to the shots and hitting the dirt much faster. Multiple shots were not required to get their attention................. CALIBER MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE when it comes to buffalo, I don't care what the 375 Experts tell you! Now the example above does not make me a .474 caliber fan either, I don't see it being one bit better on buffalo than .458 caliber..............on this particular test run I had both my sons shooting other .474 caliber and .500 caliber cartridges, my best friend was shooting and testing new bullets in 500 NE as well. Together on this trip we shot well over 50+ buffalo, testing cartridges, rifles and of course more than anything else bullets.

There is a jump in buffalo reactions from Rat Calibers to .416. Another jump in animal reactions, about the same degree from .416 to .458. I did not see another jump in reactions until reaching .500/.510 caliber. In each step up, buffalo were down quicker, and more decisive, assuming one uses proper designed bullets at every step. If you don't use a proper bullet, then not even the biggest calibers will do what is required.

If you can shoot a 375 anything, you won't have a major problem with a proper setup 416, using proper serious bullet tech. You will be better off with this when it comes to buffalo. And I don't see the 416 as a fantastic buffalo caliber, it is better than lesser Rat calibers.

Where does the Magic Start?

458..............................................

 

[grand veneur]

A .416 barely scratches the surface.

We can argue about that among big-bore users, but we should not overdo it. I am also a fan of cartridges caliber 458 for buffalo hunting, but a cartridge like the 416 Rigby remain ideal for this purpose in my opinion.

 

[BeeMaa]

Are your arguments so weak that you resort to ridiculing an avatar photo? Where have the good manners and the exchange of real experiences gone? And I thought people here were serious...

Aqui tá cheio de filhos da puta como em qualquer outro lugar! e corno também, muitos deles!!!

I suppose that last statement is your idea of good manners. I appreciate you showing your colors on pp2 of this thread so I could skip the rest of it.

 

[K-man]

Well I must have been REALLY bored to have clicked on this thread.
This is the reason we have an ignore button. Good luck with your clickbait.

 

[DieJager]

I'll use a 375 because I have only 6 slots on my hunting license. The 375 I can use for multiple species also in Europe.

If I had more slots I would definitely buy a bigger caliber. I rented a 470NE in SA and really liked it, I found the recoil very tolerable. Shot multiple animals with it. Also had to stalk really close.

Maybe in the future I'll use on of my slots on my license for a bigger caliber (458 or bigger). The problem is I also have to make an argument why I need it so that is another obstacle. The biggest game we have in my country are red stags and in my own area roe deer. Hard to convince an officer that I need a 470 for hunting roe deer. He already had it doubts with my 375.

So sometimes it is a compromise and sometimes the only available option when going with your own rifle.

 

[grand veneur]

Compromise is a very good argument for using smaller bores for shooting buffalo. I would continue to shoot buffalo with cartridges like the 375 H&H Magnum, or even a little bit smaller if nothing else is available. But if I have the choice, I will go in all cases for something larger.

 

[Challer]

I doubt there is another caliber in Africa that has killed more buffaloes than the 375, yes it does kill, that's not the issue here... what I mean is that there are much more efficient calibers, among them the good old 416 Rigby, it kills much faster and is much, much more efficient than any 375! The minimum for buffalo should be 416 and not 375, that's what I meant! Thousands of lives would have been saved and many bad things would have stopped happening if the minimum was 416

You didn’t present case very well. In fact you chose a controversial approach.

 

[DWB]

#BigBoreStartsWithA4!!!

 

[skydiver386]

Not well presented in the OP's first post, but I understand his position.

Most States here in the U.S. have laws mandating minimum caliber for Deer as a .243 bullet diameter. My State mandates.357 as minimum bullet diameter for Deer. Have Deer been killed with less? Of course, but these are legal and common sense minimums.

For larger game like Elk, My personal thoughts are that a 270 Win is a bit on the light side, and my minimum would be a 30-06. Have piles of Elk been cleanly killed with a 270? Of course, but my experience and ethics still lead me to use a 30-06 as minimum.

All the OP is saying is the he believes the 416's should be legal minimum instead of the 375. Never having hunted Buff, yet having read hundreds of others on the subject, my minimum would be a 416. Do I think laws should be changed to mandate my choice as legal minimum? No.

If the OP had presented his case in a less argumentative tone, he wouldn't have met with so much resistance.

 

[DERIAN KOEKEMOER SAFARIS]

I'm sure you will get a few replies to this post!

I was hunting alongside my son on a recent water buffalo cull hunt in Australia we were sharing a double rifle in .500/416NE (Rimmed .416 Rigby) and a .375 H&H Mag bolt rifle. We were shooting 400 gr bullets in the .416 & 300 gr bullets in the .375. We shot a total of 32 buffalo in 6 days hunting.

There was a significant difference in the effectiveness of the 400 gr .416 compared to the 300 gr .375. I'm not saying that a .375 is not capable because that would be a stupid comment but I am saying that a .416 is a much more effective choice.

My experience on this trip convinced me that I needed a .416 bolt action rifle for future buffalo hunting trips. I just got out to shoot my new Blaser R8 in .416 Rem last week, I could not be happier with it's initial use, it's super accurate and achieved great grouping with 400 gr ammo. It will be my new standard go to rifle for future buffalo hunts.

Yes sir, Very true and in my opinion/ experience the .416 is one of the best penetrating cartridge’s there is. I’ve never had any problems with a .416 on big game. I think on the 416 one should not go heavier than 400gr bullets it the combo that works.

On the .375 there is nothing wrong with a .375, shot placement and penetration is key. Yes with a larger calibre you have knock down power and bigger wound channels.

I will always say whether you shoot a .375 or .500NE if you practice enough with it and you’re not afraid to shoot that rifle you will put down your big game.

 

[revturbo9967]

Its funny, most of the PH's in Africa recommend a 375 for a client on DG.... You know, the guys that do this for a living....

 

[uplander01]

Very simply, I have both 375 HH, and a 416 Rigby. If I had to pick one for everything in Africa,...I mean everything, I would pick the 416 Rigby. But to the guy who may only hunt Africa a couple times, or pretty much only plains game but may shoot a buff or two, or a cat..I'd probably say just get a 375 and master it.

If I was Only going after buff and elephant, I would grab my 458 Lott, or 470 NE,.....only because I sold my 500 Jeffery

 

[DieJager]

You didn’t present case very well. In fact you chose a controversial approach.

Sometimes the language and culture barrier is also as problem. I've found myself in a few heated discussions on this forum I didn't know how I started it.

When I enquired why things became hostile I could see how things could be viewed as hostile by the other party. It happened because how I wrote things and how I communicated in English. In Dutch it wouldn't be a problem and I learned a bit more how to better communicate in English.

 

[PARA45]

Sometimes the language and culture barrier is also as problem. I've found myself in a few heated discussions on this forum I didn't know how I started it.

When I enquired why things became hostile I could see how things could be viewed as hostile by the other party. It happened because how I wrote things and how I communicated in English. In Dutch it wouldn't be a problem and I learned a bit more how to better communicate in English.

I was going to say something similar, and I believe the meaning of the OP was lost in the translation. Obviously, some did not help with their comments.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Buffalo is without a doubt the large-bodied animal I've hunted the most. I'm very close to 300 (both as a hunter and as a guide), 80% of which are huge water buffalo! And I'm going to say something controversial here, but anyone who knows buffalo in all its might will understand what I'm saying: The .375 caliber should not be used for buffalo hunting! Okay, now you can criticize!

View attachment 710031

A logical question might be this: "Are your huge South American Water Buffalo, larger or tougher than the typical African Cape Buffalo Bull?" They may well be, but I do not know. To a small degree, I am inclined to agree with you either way. When I began hunting in Africa, I wanted a 416 Rigby for DG hunting but struggled to locate one that had the attributes that I require. Thus, I ended up with a Belgian Browning Safari Grade in 375HH. Later, I acquired a better rifle, a custom ER Shaw P14 Enfield which is also in 375HH.

I have a friend who bought a 460 Weatherby and shot it once and immediately sold the rifle. Said it was brutal. He hunted his Buffalo last year with a 375HH and using some TSX ammo killed it with two shots and it ran about 15y and piled up. Another friend shot one 7 times before it finally died after tearing the front end off of the PH's truck. Moral of that story is there are buffalo and there are buffalo. Yours may be different.

When I hunted my buff, we stalked into thick thorn bush that gave us only about 20y of vision. At that time, I was wishing I had chosen to carry an 88mm anti-tank weapon, lol. Seriously, a 458wm or larger would have been nice. But, the buffalo did not show up that day. Later, I killed a buffalo with four, quick mostly well placed shots. It ran about 30ish yards and died. The first shot killed it but as is often the case, it was still mobile and so the 2nd shot was ineffective and hit the liver doing marginal damage. The 3rd shot with it facing us was too high and hit the back muscles adjacent to the spine. I attempted to hit the spine but pulled the shot left of my tgt. The last shot that dropped it was only 3" from the first and both of these were in the heart/lung kill zone. The Barnes TSX 300g mono was getting 2585fps in my rifle and did the job.

I can handle a 458wm just fine and if I am to hunt buffalo again, I think I would choose the larger rifle. Would it do a faster job? I cannot say.

I have used the 375HH now to take four animals ranging from deer to Kudu, to Blue Wildebeest to the Cape Buffalo and honestly, I was not all that impressed with it on any of them. I shoot it pretty well and most of my shots were well placed but the big, slower, controlled expansion bullets just seem to be sluggish in their capacity to drop an animal quickly. Oh, they kill it well enough but always seems to take several seconds and multiple shots to do the job.

• Whitetail Buck - 70y broadside, 250g Fed Trophy Bonded bearclaw - One shot DRT.
• Kudu - 50y broadside, 300g Swift A-Frame, two shots, had to track for over 200y to finish with a 2nd. 1st shot was a bit low in brisket due to an ammo malfunction.
• Blue Wildebeest - 180y frontal, 300g TSX, 1st shot wheeled and ran 60y and fell. 2nd shot to neck was pass thru and 3rd shot to chest from very close range finished it.
• Cape Buffalo - 120y broadside, 300g TSX. Took four shots to drop the beast. First shot was fatal but took about 30sec to take affect. Last shot was fatal and dropped him. A 5th insurance shot was just that and was not really needed but is always warranted.

If a 375HH with the 300g Barnes TSX expands to 2.0x or more (3/4" diam) and penetrates thru about 36" of buffalo as they will normally do, will a heavier (500g), slower 2100fps, 458wm that expands to about 1.6x at best (0.73") and penetrates to at least 36" or more do a better job?? I know that 458's can expand to more but only if fired at extremely close ranges. The 375 will expand to 2x or more out to 200y with ease. Buffalo are shot at closer ranges for a variety of reasons so, long range performance is not necessary. Keep in mind that the 458 bullet has slowed to about 1860fps at 100y and beyond that range it may not expand at all. If you shoot a buff at 50y with it, it should expand well. At longer ranges it may perform more like a solid. Again, is a 1/2" (50cal) hole from a solid more effective than a 3/4" (75cal) hole from a fully expanded 375? It is a valid question.

A 416 may be the wild card. It being faster than the heavies and fast enough to fully expand at even longer buffalo shooting range. But, is a 0.83" hole really that much more effective than a 0.75" hole? Plus, just for grins most of the recovered 375 bullets that I have were actually expanded to 2.2x. In other words they made a 0.825" hole. My rifle does get higher than average MV out of factory Barnes ammo, so perhaps it is an outlier? Pic below is of a pair of 300g 375HH Barnes TSX bullets expanded to 2.0x and 2.2x.

 

[Rosch]

Wow, lots of controversal statements around here!
I experienced the 375 H&H as a good allround rifle, which is affordable and can suit even sensitive minded hunters. Yes, a good point is, if You can't handle an appropoiate rifle, why should You hunt the big ones anyway?
But the world isn't easy as that and those guys able to afford such a hunt are mostly no big shouldered, hairy, massive and hard man, able and willing to take any recoil of bigger guns, no, those who got the bucks mostly don't have the balls!
Once I carried a 458 Winni as allrounder with great success for some time, but the gun started to bite my nerves with those 500 grainers and so I finally changed to 425 Express with 400 grain. The wellchosen stock, the action and the recoil do me well and since that purchase I'm a happy man with no further needs whatsoever! So I'm a softy? Nop, I'm a realist, dealing with the facts!
To make a cut in the middle a really good advice allways is: Choose a real good gunsmith, don't buy guns of any made from the rack, read and inform Yourself about the whos the hows of big bore rifles and animals anatomy, get or built a good fitting rifle without any unnecessary cosmetics in a caliber You can handle, practice with it and after that practice again.
With this gun and with every shot Your confidence will grow and so prepared You'll hit Your trophy even in the heat of a hunt on the right, the deadly spot. Every buffalo popped with a premium 300 grain bullet out of a 375 in the centre of his life will go down at once or a bit later. But this first shot is whats it's all about! Not to much importance on the caliber!
My believe is that if You don't prepare Yourself for a hunt after the biggest and most dangerous animals the planet has to offer, You don't deserve it actually. Then go and deal with the self-chosen fate!

 

[Dinsdale]

Its funny, most of the PH's in Africa recommend a 375 for a client on DG.... You know, the guys that do this for a living....

Harry Selby joined another forum that's Africa safari centric and a bunch of know it all holiday hunters challenged his opinion of ballistics too. Guess 50 years of safaris he didn't know as much as those that post on internet forums.

He stopped posting, so did his daughter that made a few posts.

These threads are good for post counts and page views. Maybe OP wants more likes and it makes them feel good. That's OK, lots of reasons folks post on forums.

 

[NDWoods]

I would not be in the "yes" side of banning anything as a word used tell others they cannot have what you do not like.
I truly despise that attitude we see far too much in our world these days.
Not a caliber discussion when you put it like that, just a personal problem being projected on others.

Rant over

 

[DieJager]

I would not be in the "yes" side of banning anything as a word used tell others they cannot have what you do not like.
I truly despise that attitude we see far too much in our world these days.
Not a caliber discussion when you put it like that, just a personal problem being projected on others.

Rant over

He said it was a bad translation to English because his native tongue is Portugese. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

He has recently had some interesting threads and discussions. Nice to have new members participate.

I think some comments directed at him where a bit harsh and unnecessary. But to each his own.

 

[grand veneur]

Even if you are not from an English-speaking country, you understand what the topic meant. Some members should not have gotten unnecessarily upset and even rude. What is striking, however, is that the small-caliber faction always answers very vehemently in such discussions. The large-caliber faction seems to be more tolerant when it comes to which cartridge is best suited for buffalo hunting. There must be a reason for this.