The ultimate Elk Cartridge? - Does a Man-Bun make you more sensitive to recoil?

There will always be a cohort of people using less than ideal cartridges for the game intended. The good news is these things work themselves out from the painful lesson of a lost trophy. Once you lose or wound a nice animal, you can confront your own biases and adjust your gear accordingly. Wish people would skip the painful lesson and just follow conventional wisdom and shoot 30-6’s and 375’s. The world would be a merrier place but gun safes would be smaller. The biggest reason this happens is from “experts” working the gun counter of a sporting goods store. Just my .02
 
Apologies to our Gen-X hunters out there if I step on your toes. I enjoy reading and watching videos about other hunters thoughts on best cartridges for various hunting applications. This morning I watched one that made me wonder WTF is going on with today's hunters?

The hunter was about late twenties to early thirties and lived somewhere out west where he hunts Elk every year.

The author then went on to say that he flinches when he shoots a 308. At this point I noticed his Man-Bun
First, I understand your aggrevation toward what the person in your OP claimed, & I get it and can agree ..... but, as a point of fact, any male that is in his "late twenties" in 2026 is not a GenX , now he certainly could be the offspring of a GenX & I guess the "man-bun" along with the misguided advise of said individual, could be the fault of a GenX parent, so I'm assuming that is what you meant by "if I step on any toes" .... Full disclosure I am supposedly a GenX & my Son is 25 , but I'm pretty sure his thoughts on the topic of the OP is contrary to what that individual presented. Irregardless, my Son is a subset of 1 ....

This topic reminds me of a convo I had in hunt camp where one of the clients was a trauma surgeon. In the "round the fire pit" discussion, the topic of rifles/calibers was on the plate. Most had brought some type of .30 cal , and if memory serves correctly the line up was .7mmRM , .338WM , .375W Lever Gun , .300WM & .300Weatherby , which the latter was the surgeons rifle/calber of choice. Inevitably, the surgeon & the .300WM began discussing the merits of their individual cartridge, that led to everyone waxing poetic on the superlatives of their caliber choice. In the end everyone went home with meat for the freezer, but one thing stuck with me was what the surgeon said, "velocity kills more, than blunt force" ..... I kinda get what he was trying to say, and I guess it follows along with what the aforementioned "man-bun" guy was referencing, what has been my experience w/ hunters that show up with high velocity calbers, or ultra high velocity calbers i.e. wildcats , etc... those can be effective , but in every instance if the bullet/projectile hits anything in-between there is high likelihood it gets deflected or it hits bone on impact and the carnage is significant.

Nothing ground breaking, just find it interesting how individual minds work on rationalizing their rifle/caliber choice.
 
Have used 280 to 348 Winchester for elk 38 & moose 4. Best was 338-06 or 338wm.
.348W ? Have always wondered how that calber would perform..... anything I know about was gleaned from sparse writings in periodicals & load data. Any chance you would share your experience with it? What rifle platform is it in?
 
Lots of thoughts on this:
1) Flinch is developed based off of the shooter, not the caliber, but starting a young shooter off on a heavy recoiling gun makes them more likely to develop flinch
2) Modern bullets make smaller calibers much more effective than they used to be. A 223 for whitetail is now perfectly ethical
3) Counter to point 2, people are not ethical. A 223 is a great deer round - when used ethically (my personal hard deck is 150 yards). A chest shot at 300 yards is not ethical, but people will do it and then blame the cartridge when they wound game. The 6.5 Creedmore is still suffering from poor bullet selection and poor shot choice
4) Hunters don’t practice enough with whatever rifle they choose
5) When in doubt, 30-06
6) Nothing is inherently wrong with a man bun. It used to be associated with former military and workers too busy to get a haircut, but much like Timberland boots and Carhartt it has became a fad for guys who consider using stairs over an elevator blue collar
I get your point, but .223 is a no for me
 
You said lugged, which for anyone who was a SAW, 240, or even M60 gunner for you old timers (I doubt anyone was old enough to be a BAR Gunner) is going to take that as meaning carried/hiked it.

That said, I personally know two females (on the same 101st deployment) who’d often volunteer as gunners on one of the trucks while running supply convoys out to our Outposts. Both were complete badasses on the gun but they didn’t lug it anywhere as it was attached to a turret mount and you wouldn’t call them a SAW gunner because they had different jobs in a support battalion and would just fill that role during the limited 6-8 supply convoys we’d get over the course of that deployment. On every one of them they’d take some sort of contact.

Not trying to take away from her service or deployments just pointing out your repetition of her service from a SINGLE brief conversation isn’t empirical evidence or factual and probably shouldn’t be considered given the SAW is a 5.56 and the weight of a firearms diminishes the recoil substantially.

My use of the term "lugged" may or may not be accurate. Who knows if she carried it on foot, dragged it or lugged no further than the vehicle? That level of detail is not included nor was is really relevant to my point. It is easy to nit pick wording if we are so inclined. I never claimed my comment was empirical evidence, or factual. It is just hearsay and was only relevant as an example of a shooter of smaller stature, can be trained to handle heavy weapons including a SAW or a 375HH rifle. Did not know we were holding one another to defined legal standards of evidence just to try to make a point.

Sounds like you got it all figured out. Who knows you may have crossed paths with her at some point. She had planned to make military a career until a back injury ended her service. If she told me how, I do not recall. Next time I see her, I will ask for more details if she wants to share. Dates, location, MOS, yada yada. Or we could just get back to the original subject which is if the 22 Creed is really a great Elk rifle or not? The rest was inane minutia that I posted to get folks involved in the discussion. I don't want to sound too much like an asshole. That is easy to do on a forum like this. Good chance we have more in common than not and if we got to spend time together would likely get along well. Later.
 
My use of the term "lugged" may or may not be accurate. Who knows if she carried it on foot, dragged it or lugged no further than the vehicle? That level of detail is not included nor was is really relevant to my point. It is easy to nit pick wording if we are so inclined. I never claimed my comment was empirical evidence, or factual. It is just hearsay and was only relevant as an example of a shooter of smaller stature, can be trained to handle heavy weapons including a SAW or a 375HH rifle. Did not know we were holding one another to defined legal standards of evidence just to try to make a point.

Sounds like you got it all figured out. Who knows you may have crossed paths with her at some point. She had planned to make military a career until a back injury ended her service. If she told me how, I do not recall. Next time I see her, I will ask for more details if she wants to share. Dates, location, MOS, yada yada. Or we could just get back to the original subject which is if the 22 Creed is really a great Elk rifle or not? The rest was inane minutia that I posted to get folks involved in the discussion. I don't want to sound too much like an asshole. That is easy to do on a forum like this. Good chance we have more in common than not and if we got to spend time together would likely get along well. Later.
Not a big deal and depending on the dates there’s a very strong chance of less than 2 degrees of separation. I’m sure we all have more in common than we’d sometimes like to admit.

To your original point, I wouldn’t advocate for a 22CM to be used on elk, or as the best caliber but I wouldn’t fault someone for using it. I’d personally use it being picky on my shots, and with handloaded ammo. That’s a bullet decision for me, and I feel bullet selection is even more critical with smaller calibers. I’d have even less issues with a 6.5CM and a good bullet choice. What most don’t account for is the average Hunter has a very poor understanding of terminal ballistics, and even fewer truly know their capabilities as well as the limitations of their rifle/bullet choice, and wait for the right shot.

As @Xpraetor said “speed kills” I’m firmly in that camp. The 25 cal I’ve used on elk is a 257 Weatherby Mag. If I didn’t have a great 300WM set-up, I’d likely own a 300 Weatherby and it’d likely be my do all gun. When I drew my Gila bull tag, I almost took the 257 but opted for the 300WM because of the type of tag it was. I didn’t want to have to pass a 350+ bull waiting for the “right” shot or handicap myself. A cow tag or a Colorado/Idaho type OTC or low point bull tag, the Weatherby is coming out of the safe. I can be more picky accept tag soup there than a sub 1% draw odds tag.
 
This kick of using the smallest bullet borders on being unethical to me. Do the animal a favor and shoot the biggest thing at it that you have total control and accuracy/prowess with. If that is only a .243, well good luck. In investing and life, there is a concept of "margin of safety" and i think it matters for cartridges used in hunHe'll, not every bullet is placed perfectly -- hunt long enough and you will pull one, hit a branch or misjudge the wind. Then bullet mass and velocity matter.

I have been debating an elk hunt and then debating do I shoot one of my .300 win mags (I used a BAR in .300wm to kill the only elk I have ever had a shot at and that was an AT&T reach out and touch somebody 600 yard shot which is long for me) or my .375H&H or my new .404J that is being built.

On ranches that I hunt in Texas, we'll let you use a 6.5 man-bun but the pigs will run off often. Kills deer fine assuming proper bullet and placement. I'm not saying a .22 long rifle won't kill a cape buffalo with proper placement" but I don't think it wise or ethical.

Hell, go back to spears and slingshots. With proper placement....
I re-read Elmer Keith's books and remain convinced he is correct about bigger bores and heavier bullets for elk and other larger game, although we know many have been harvested with smaller bores. With the right bullets loaded fully, .30/06 180-grain or equivalent weight and energy, say, in a 7mm seems about minimum for elk or moose. But we know all kinds of combinations might work.
 
There is an antidote to man buns, metro sexuals, dudes, and all those who distort themselves with too much fashion and weak constitutions: Vagisil. It is sold in tube size, and it easily fits into a possibles pouch, or hunting pack. When confronted with effronteries, especially complaining about physical discomfort, you can pull out the Vagisil and tell the guy to rub some on his boo boo.
 
Apologies to our Gen-X hunters out there if I step on your toes. I enjoy reading and watching videos about other hunters thoughts on best cartridges for various hunting applications. This morning I watched one that made me wonder WTF is going on with today's hunters?

The hunter was about late twenties to early thirties and lived somewhere out west where he hunts Elk every year. He was musing on what makes the ideal Elk cartridge. A big Magnum like a 300wm or a smaller, lighter round like the 6.5cm? He cited studies which concluded that bullet caliber and weight and energy do not matter at all or much anyways and that first shot accuracy is the most critical variable. Not hard to argue so far. He also cited a study by the US Army stating that soldiers rifle accuracy and shotgun accuracy fell off once recoil exceeded 11 ft-lbs. Really?? I wondered if the test subjects were field cooks or Delta operators, lol.

The author then went on to say that he flinches when he shoots a 308. At this point I noticed his Man-Bun and was reminded of a study of the pussification of the American male and that American men of today have a 20% lower testosterone level when compared to the men of 1947. Anyways in the end this so-called expert claimed that the absolute best Elk cartridge is the 22 Creedmore but that since it is not legal in all Elk hunting states, he recommends the 6.5 Creedmore over other notable choices like the 338wm or 300wm or 7mm RM etc. His argument is that lung tissue is easy to damage and if you shoot an Elk thru both lungs with a 22 it kills them just as dead as if you shoot them with a 338 Lapua and it won't hurt your shoulder. Well Hell, who knew? His logic is that all hunters shoot light recoiling rifles better than the big heavy hitters like 300wm thus they will place their hits better on game in the field if they shoot a mild cartridge and the animal will not know any better.

I have been prepping for a fall Elk & Moose hunt and was struggling with the choice between a 338wm or a 7mm RM and all this time all I needed to do was bring my 243. For the record the rifle that I shoot most accurately is my Sako S20 Hybrid in 243 with a 5-25x scope. The recoil is nothing but the big ass tgt scope is useless for hunting unless you are shooting very long shots from a solid rest in open territory. Think plains prairie dog or coyote maybe pronghorn. Not much else. That said the rifles I shoot best also include a 375HH, 7mmRM, 30-06 and a 7mm/08. All of those kick more than my 243 and all of them have proper hunting glass on them. So, I cannot buy the theory that recoil reduces accuracy. It just forces hunters to practice and concentrate on fundamental marksmanship technique. But, for the record, my hair is not long enough to pull back into a Man-Bun and likely never will be. My daughter is 5' 10" and is a size 2. She weighs maybe 120lbs soaking wet and shoots a 308 and a 45acp just fine. She can still pull her hair into a bun but it does not seem to impact her marksmanship.

Any of you Nimrods out there ever take a Moose or a Elk with a 243? or a 223? Maybe it will sound more effective if I called it my Sako 243 a 6mm/08? 80g Barnes TTSX or Fed Fusion bullets. How does it do? Us big Magnum hunters want to know. Pic below of my 243 Moose rifle attached for entertainment value only.

View attachment 777287
I would expect elk hunters to handle common fully loaded .308/.30-06 bolt rifles (18-20 ft.-lbs. recoil) for 40 rounds with little difficulty at the range. I think 40 rounds was required for quals with the M1 Garand .30-06 in WW2 and with the M-14 7.62mm when we shot that rifle in 1971. Neither was considered heavy recoiling by most men. The semi-auto action and 9-lb weights when loaded may have reduced some felt recoil. (But after getting my shoulder replaced with titanium 11 years ago, I immediately felt more recoil with any rifles.)
 
Same bullet, same speed, same terminal velocity. Yep, clearly the Swede is mythical. Case closed.

It's like a pipsqueek mouse and a pipsqueek vole arguing over who is gonna fight the fox.

Guess one is mighty mouse, eh?
At last you see the light!
 
A lot of interesting discussion...im no expert but ive seen a lot of animals shot with rifles. Having watched a lot of people who claim to be longrange animal assassins shoot in field conditions (some who are "famous"/influencers) I find that most cant shoot for shit. 90+ % of hunters in the field cant shoot 5moa in field conditions and Id put money on that. When these people talk about choosing their shots with their .22 creeds on elk/moose I just shake my head because I know a lot of animals are taking it in the guts or the bullet isnt getting into the chest because they took an iffy shot. Shoot a well constructed bullet and most of the 7mm+ cartridges will kill most north american stuff just fine. Shooting a 22 centerfire on big boned animals seems like an unethical and unnecessary stunt when an animals life is on the line.
 
There is an antidote to man buns, metro sexuals, dudes, and all those who distort themselves with too much fashion and weak constitutions: Vagisil. It is sold in tube size, and it easily fits into a possibles pouch, or hunting pack. When confronted with effronteries, especially complaining about physical discomfort, you can pull out the Vagisil and tell the guy to rub some on his boo boo.

Hahaha!!! But wait a minute, nothing wrong with someone being a "Dude" ..... *Jeffrey Lebowski, aka "The Dude" solidified that fact
 
Hahaha!!! But wait a minute, nothing wrong with someone being a "Dude" ..... *Jeffrey Lebowski, aka "The Dude"
You are 100% correct. I stand corrected, but perhaps we can make a carve out as there is only one Dude and he reigns supreme. All others dudes likely have man buns or want man buns. Just sayin. The Dude Abides
 
a significant number of the hunters that I guide, shoot a suppressed 6.5 Creedmoor much better than even a suppressed .30-06 and I do believe that shot placement and bullet quality is significantly more important than caliber.

I will rather let a client shoot any of these with a 6.5 Creedmoor, with which he is comfortable, using a quality hunting bullet, than with a .30-06, .300 win mag or .375 H&H that he is scared of.

When my Dad first took me deer hunting as a teenager, we went to the sporting goods store and he bought me a .30-06. (Browning a-bolt with 6x leupold scope)

Literally the first centerfire rifle that I ever sighted in at a range.

The only centerfire rifle I shot up to that point was one session of shooting a .223 ruger mini-14, off-hand at tin cans whilst camping the year before. It was otherwise all .22 rimfire in my early years.

Yes, the 06 kicked a bit, but that was expected. After sighting it in we made one more trip to double check before we left for the hunt, and that was it. All done on less than a full box of ammo.

I fired a total of two shots on the hunt with two dead deer.

I find the idea of being scared of a .30-06 to be absolutely incredible.

My knee jerk reaction was that some people are just straight-up pussies...

But upon reflection, I think that the real issue is that some people just don't have a sufficient foundation of shooting fundamentals.

i.e. They lack the mental bandwidth to set aside the incoming physical effects of recoil because they are still worrying about the basics of sight picture and trigger control.
 
I’d also add that the 6.5 creedmoor is fine on elk in my opinion. Bullet selection matters for the creedmoor family though. My buddy shot a beautiful bull elk at like 380 yards last fall with 6.5 creed. Loaded with 124gr hammer hunters at 2994 fps. I put together the handloads for him which is why I know that specific load data. Anyways that bullet went in ripped the heart in half jellied the bottom of the lungs and the bull took about 5 steps and tipped over dead.

I do think in the small caliber discussion people get hung up on caliber when really they should be discussing bullet selection.

I do still lean towards bigger is better but have been using smaller and smaller cartridges these days with some excellent results.
Bullet selection is key with light caliber
 
So it’s interesting, he is right that military studies showed recoil flinch to be significant, the only problem with that theory is that it required the context of a soldier shooting multiple rounds, a situation that rarely pops up in hunting situations. It was this argument that largely led to the 6.5x55 Swedish (the original 6.5), the 5.56 etc. over classic military cartridges (like 303 etc). Not that the recoil itself was a problem for accuracy, but rather the accuracy of a string of shots, which is reasonable.

In my view for elk, a bullet in the 7mm plus range is a far better choice, if nothing else for forgiveness with shot placement, a little more momentum. I also don’t think elk should be shot out beyond 300 yards (follow ups excluded) but I suspect in today’s world I’d get push back on that - there is a lot of wind drift, and animal movement potential at that range, not to mention for a lot of rounds out there the energy at that range tends to become squirrely. At short ranges those smaller calibers are reasonable for larger game provided your on point - in Sweden folks don’t shoot moose at long ranges due to trees, hence the 6.5x55SE. Just because you can take a poke, doesn’t mean you should.

I shoot a suppressed 280AI with an 165gr accubond doing 3000FPS and it has less felt recoil than my 6.5x55SE. Did the job on a Wyoming bull last year. Recoil is also such a sensitive thing irrespective of caliber - those tikkas in the super lite are notoriously rough because of the stock and its tendency to focus recoil to a point - my 270 was not a pleasant experience until I replaced the pad, but generally I prefer a little more weight in my rifles.
 
In my humble opinion, one of the most suitable cartridges for the great elk is still the veteran 338 Winchester Magnum, and I am of the camp that you have to use a cartridge of sufficient diameter to take down these deer in all conditions, not just the most suitable ones.

Óscar
 

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