The ultimate Elk Cartridge? - Does a Man-Bun make you more sensitive to recoil?

[MS 9x56]

I study shooter form, breath control, and triggger control in shooters at the range. I have noticed that those who are recoil averse have very poor shooting form. Some of the things I noticed are failure to mount the rifle in the pocket of their shoulder nice and tight. Failure to take a deep breath then let half of it out. Jerk the trigger instead of squeezing it not knowing when it will break. Not even knowing which eye is their dominant eye. All of these things in the hunting fields can and do lead to misses or worse wounded animals.

 

[Huge]

Saw this thread before the morning started in earnest. I stopped what I was doing and planning, topped up the coffee mug and am settling in for what promises to be a most entertaining read. Not two days old and 6 pages! I can’t wait.

 

[BFaucett]

Apologies to our Gen-X hunters out there if I step on your toes. I enjoy reading and watching videos about other hunters thoughts on best cartridges for various hunting applications. This morning I watched one that made me wonder WTF is going on with today's hunters?

The hunter was about late twenties to early thirties and lived somewhere out west where he hunts Elk every year. He was musing on what makes the ideal Elk cartridge. ...<snip>....

Note: I have not read the entire thread.

Gen-X? Late twenties to early thirties?

The youngest Gen-Xer is, as of today's date, 45-46 years of age.

"Most Gen Xers are the children of the Silent Generation and older Baby Boomers, and many are the parents of Millennials and Generation Z."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X

Time marches on... Me? I'm an old Baby Boomer that was born in 1954.

Cheers! Bob F.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

A lot of interesting discussion...im no expert but ive seen a lot of animals shot with rifles. Having watched a lot of people who claim to be longrange animal assassins shoot in field conditions (some who are "famous"/influencers) I find that most cant shoot for shit. 90+ % of hunters in the field cant shoot 5moa in field conditions and Id put money on that. When these people talk about choosing their shots with their .22 creeds on elk/moose I just shake my head because I know a lot of animals are taking it in the guts or the bullet isnt getting into the chest because they took an iffy shot. Shoot a well constructed bullet and most of the 7mm+ cartridges will kill most north american stuff just fine. Shooting a 22 centerfire on big boned animals seems like an unethical and unnecessary stunt when an animals life is on the line.

Well said Sir. While quality bullets have made it possible to kill large animals with mouse guns assuming one waits for a good shot, those quality bullets only make the big boomers also more effective than they were 60 or more years ago. I am thinking mainly of the TSX, the AccuBond, the Swift A-Frame, or Trophy Bonded bullets.

The Elmer Keith camp (Big Bullets are King) vs O'Conner camp (Speed is KIng) argument rages because in many ways with good bullets both are right. You can make either work which is why a big bullet going really fast is likely the best if you can shoot it well.

I think it a bit comical when we tolerate the recoil of a upland 12ga shotgun loaded with high brass hunting loads as acceptable but flinch at a 300wm let alone a 308? Their recoil impulse is similar but most heavy shotgun loads in a 7.5lb double kick a good bit more.

I think it is telling to watch a few of the 500y ethical hunter challenge videos that Eric Cortina and Backfire put on youtube. This challenges a shooter to hit the vitals of a deer size target with one shot at 500y with his "Hunting Rifle". Most show up with $5000 custom match rifles, handloads with scopes in the 25-24x or bigger class and most cannot do it. Those that show up with a factory 300wm or 30-06 with a 3-9s hunting optic almost universally fail. I will hold short of calling long range hunters unethical because every hunter/rifle combo is different and every hunting scenario is different. So, you will have to judge your own ethics. Still I wonder how many 500y first shots really connect in the right spot or simply wound the beast forcing 3-4 more followups to finish it as it attempts to flee? I will practice long shots but only to make my <300y field shots feel relatively easy. If faced with the trophy of a lifetime and a longer than normal for me shot? I would have to judge the situation at the time. I would hope that I could get closer but who knows. No judgement.

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

Poor shooting with a larger caliber rifle is of no benefit to hunting. Your Better off making an accurate shot with a smaller caliber and proven bullet. Make a bad shot/gut shot/limb injuring shot with a .300 Cal, magnum or otherwise, and the animal will run off wounded and will likely be unrecovered. This point is made for those that may be recoil sensitive and/or have not practiced enough to make ethical kill shots.

That said, I’ve killed many animals, and documented many hunts, with a .243 up to Roan. Never had an animal run off unrecovered. It’s a very accurate rifled which allows me predictable shot placement.

I will continue to use my .300 RUM on Elk and Moose. Because I shoot my 375 H&H accurately, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it on either…

 

[CloudySkies]

Well said Sir. While quality bullets have made it possible to kill large animals with mouse guns assuming one waits for a good shot, those quality bullets only make the big boomers also more effective than they were 60 or more years ago. I am thinking mainly of the TSX, the AccuBond, the Swift A-Frame, or Trophy Bonded bullets.

The Elmer Keith camp (Big Bullets are King) vs O'Conner camp (Speed is KIng) argument rages because in many ways with good bullets both are right. You can make either work which is why a big bullet going really fast is likely the best if you can shoot it well.

I think it a bit comical when we tolerate the recoil of a upland 12ga shotgun loaded with high brass hunting loads as acceptable but flinch at a 300wm let alone a 308? Their recoil impulse is similar but most heavy shotgun loads in a 7.5lb double kick a good bit more.

I think it is telling to watch a few of the 500y ethical hunter challenge videos that Eric Cortina and Backfire put on youtube. This challenges a shooter to hit the vitals of a deer size target with one shot at 500y with his "Hunting Rifle". Most show up with $5000 custom match rifles, handloads with scopes in the 25-24x or bigger class and most cannot do it. Those that show up with a factory 300wm or 30-06 with a 3-9s hunting optic almost universally fail. I will hold short of calling long range hunters unethical because every hunter/rifle combo is different and every hunting scenario is different. So, you will have to judge your own ethics. Still I wonder how many 500y first shots really connect in the right spot or simply wound the beast forcing 3-4 more followups to finish it as it attempts to flee? I will practice long shots but only to make my <300y field shots feel relatively easy. If faced with the trophy of a lifetime and a longer than normal for me shot? I would have to judge the situation at the time. I would hope that I could get closer but who knows. No judgement.

Its a fair point on the shotgun recoil equivalency, though, for most 12s they are built with more of a recoil compensation in mind or at least a better padding structure (notably many vests have added padding), and typically gun weights are higher than those people are carting out west for an elk. I need to do a comparison at some point to my double.

I do think your point on the latter is very relevant here, and that's assuming your target is non-moving. Agree that a lot of it is get a bullet in and deal with the consequences theory for those taking long shots - we get a selective bias on footage towards the lucky drop, or follow ups are cut.

It takes a bullet traveling at 3000 FPS 0.5 seconds to travel 500 yards. It takes an arrow 0.5 seconds to travel 50 yards at 300 FPS. How many people thing about how much an animal can duck a string at 50 yards - or the movement that could occur, not to mention various other factors like windage drift - 10 mph is pretty commonly found in canyons out west which is realistically up to 2 ft. I'd rather leave an animal on the mountain than wound one. Part of the reason I set a 300 yards and in limit on myself is that if getting another bullet into the animal is going to be necessary to follow up wounding, I feel confident to do so out to probably 500 yards. IMO shouldn't be shooting our comfortable max on the first shot.

 

[Daryl S]

IMHO, the .338WM and other .338's .35 Whelen & other .35's (not the Marlin), 9.3's and .375'S, H&H, etc, are the very best moose and elk ctgs. in virtually all ethical hunting circumstances. I do not believe in shooting large ungulates in excess of 300yards. A step forward after or at the time of the shot likely ends up in a gut shot at longer ranges, or even at 300yds.
That said. I've shot 2 elk with a .45 Colt from a model 94 Trapper w/16" bl. 300gr. Cast HP @ 1,582fps. (BP .45/90 ballistics.) One at 100yds, the other, about 75yds.
This fall I am going to use my M86 with 350gr. Horn.@2,060fps. I know it will work well. Elk can be very tough. Totally different from moose, although the moose is generally heavier. I would not consider using any of my 4, 6.5's on elk or moose. I've too many better guns for those. For me, the 6.5's make terrific deer ctgs. Yes they'll kill moose and elk. I just prefer something better. It's a matter of choice.

 

[joker2400]

Thank you for the input and comments. Well stated comments as well as good experiences from your Alaskan hunts. Even though I enjoy obsessing about ideal bullets and calibers for different game animals, in reality a good hunter can kill most game with any decent hunting rifle as long as he/she is patient enough to get a decent shot as reported by others of native Alaskans use of AR15's.

I hunt a good bit with a 7mm/08 which is very very close ballistically to the 6.5cm but it is also not Thor's hammer. It works with well placed shots but it is just not potent enough for really large animals. When I took a Blesbok with it last year, I had to shoot the poor thing 4 times despite a well placed first shot. It is just as dead but ran a long way. I did not like that sort of performance. It's recoil is nothing and it is one of my most accurate rifles but is only good for deer sized game at modest ranges in my opinion. It worked better on all the other game but even one like the Blesbok tainted my view of it. Could I kill an elk with it? Yes, but I would never try.

IMO if you had to shoot a blesbuck 4x to kill it with a 7mm of any sort, shot placement or bullet selection was suboptimal at best.

If we are arguing that 140-160 grain bullets in 6.5 or 7mm are too small or borderline for elk, then we need to have a(nother) long discussion about shooting Cape buffalo and the like with a 270-300 grain bullet out of a .375.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Not a fan of the 6.5 ManBun. Yeah, low ‘T’ Gen-Zers love it but who cares?

I watch them shoot 5 rounds of the 6.5 MB, and then I hand them my Remington M660, chambered for the manly-man .350 Remington Magnum.

Jeez-louise, after firing just 3 rounds they’re calling it quits like they’re going pass out.

Sez it all right there.

 

[Safari Dave]

IMO, the "Ultimate Elk Cartridge" is the .340 Weatherby Magnum.

The only elk I've killed has been with a .300 Weatherby Magnum.

My son is a believer in the low recoil/perfect shot placement, frangible bullet, theory. I'm sure it works fine under optimal conditions (It did for me last season on a white-tail buck).


However, those of us who have to drive 2,000 miles to hunt elk on public land and might only have 5-6 days to hunt, can't always wait for a perfect broadside shot. I might need to drive a bullet deeply, as the animal is quartering away. On some shots, I might need to break a Humerus, because of the shot presentation.

Give me well-constructed expanding bullet, with plenty of energy, that won't fragment, for the vast majority of my BG hunting.

 

[BFaucett]

Not a fan of the 6.5 ManBun. Yeah, low ‘T’ Gen-Zers love it but who cares?

I watch them shoot 5 rounds of the 6.5 MB, and then I hand them my Remington M660, chambered for the manly-man .350 Remington Magnum.

Jeez-louise, after firing just 3 rounds they’re calling it quits like they’re going pass out.

Sez it all right there.

A .350 Rem Mag??? Heck, everyone knows you're not a REAL manly man unless you're using at least a 90 mm.

(Just for fun.) Cheers! Bob F.

 

[Daryl S]

For those who shoot 9.3's, I found the 270 Speer to be too soft for moose from my 9.3x57, at 2,340fps. Bullet broke up on the the high leg bone and nothing went into the chest cavity. 200yds with open sights, maybe 1,850fps at impact. Got the moose, but not impressed at all with that bullets performance. I surely wouldn't even use it on deer from a 9.3x62 or 64.

 

[375er]

For those who shoot 9.3's, I found the 270 Speer to be too soft for moose from my 9.3x57, at 2,340fps. Bullet broke up on the the high leg bone and nothing went into the chest cavity. 200yds with open sights, maybe 1,850fps at impact. Got the moose, but not impressed at all with that bullets performance. I surely wouldn't even use it on deer from a 9.3x62 or 64.

Was it a "hot core"?

 

[Daryl S]

Might have been called that, but I've never seen hotcores go to pieces like that.

 

[BFaucett]

Was it a "hot core"?

 

[Daryl S]

I don't remember, Bob. Could have been, but I've never seen a hot core bullet do that

 

[BFaucett]

Hot-Cor Rifle Bullet, .366, 270 Grain
https://www.speer.com/bullets/rifle-bullets/hot-cor-rifle-bullet/19-2459.html

Bob F.

 

[Daryl S]

Well, after the episode with the moose "calf"(250pounds, a big one) I sectioned a bullet to compare with other 9.3's. Even the PriviPartisan 286gr. had a thicker jacket. The Speer was very thin. The 232gr. Vulcan Norma had a 1/16" thick jacket, as did the .375" 225's that I had sized down to .367". They would have been better choices for the 9.3x57Husky, but that was all later testing. My bro now has that rifle for moose, loaded with 286gr. Norma Alaskan bullets at 2,200fps.

 

[BFaucett]

Well, after the episode with the moose "calf"(250pounds, a big one) I sectioned a bullet to compare with other 9.3's. Even the PriviPartisan 286gr. had a thicker jacket. The Speer was very thin. The 232gr. Vulcan Norma had a 1/16" thick jacket, as did the .375" 225's that I had sized down to .367". They would have been better choices for the 9.3x57Husky, but that was all later testing. My bro now has that rifle for moose, loaded with 286gr. Norma Alaskan bullets at 2,200fps.

I've never sectioned one or used one but from my reading various sources (magazines, forums) the Speer 270 gr .366" has a reputation for being a "soft" bullet due its thin jacket.

Just my two cents... Bob F.

 

[Daryl S]

Yes, Steve Szhin from Wyoming noted he'd had the same problem with them, then another fellow on another forum same on deer from his 9.3x62. Killed the deer, but ruined the front end, both sides from a spine hit from above. VERY close range, bullet flagged.