New vs vintage 450/400NE double rifle

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dhughes66

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I hope one day in the next few years to purchase my first double rifle. I have pretty much decided on a 450/400 Chapius but I occasionally see a vintage British 450/400NE 3in in a similar price range of the Chapius. My question for everyone is if you don't reload your own ammunition, does factory specifically Hornady ammo tend (emphasis on tend) to regulate decent in older British 450/400s? Thoughts?
 
dhughes66 said:
I hope one day in the next few years to purchase my first double rifle. I have pretty much decided on a 450/400 Chapius but I occasionally see a vintage British 450/400NE 3in in a similar price range of the Chapius. My question for everyone is if you don't reload your own ammunition, does factory specifically Hornady ammo tend (emphasis on tend) to regulate decent in older British 450/400s? Thoughts?
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I’d reach out to @roverandbrew … he picked up a Chapuis iphisi in 450/400 NE earlier this year and is meticulous about his firearms…
 
Agree here especially if you are not a reloader. With vintage you are taking cordite and relating it to powder today. It happens but very little chance you can buy loaded ammo that will regulate versus the modern Chapuis which I owned in 450-400 should regulate under normal conditions
 
Vintage guns in 450/400 3" are pretty rare. I see the 3.25" more often. But if I found one in good shape, I would pick it over a Chapuis. Im not sure I entirely trust the adjustable system Chapuis uses to regulate its doubles. Vintage guns (depending on make) can be made to a very high standard and cost the same as a modern gun of much lower grade.
 
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Schüler Jumbo said:
I would concentrate on the modern metallurgy Chapius. Vintage British guns can be 100+ years old. It doesn’t sound like you’re a collector so I think the Chapius is the better choice for your application.
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That is what I am thinking as well. As much as I love old British doubles, a modern Chapius is less crazy than getting a vintage British double. I'm in my mid 30s and have dreamed of a double rifle for probably 20 years. Trying to find the balance of fulfilling my dream and it still being somewhat practical. Lol
 
I really like the 450/400 3inch cartridge . I have a Westley Richards DR and a Ruger No1. I use the same Hornady factory ammo in both. I am a reloader but frankly there is no need in this instance . The DR regulates pretty well with the Hornady .
 
Recently the QC on Chapuis has been struggling. Several well known dealers who specialize in double rifles have all but stopped carrying them after having to return 70-100% of the rifles they’ve received.

To answer your question about a vintage double and factory hornady, I personally wouldn’t. The modern metallurgy vs that used in vintage guns is different. Modern powders used by Hornady and other modern ammo manufacturers is different and produces different pressure curves as the bullets travel down the barrel.
 
matt85 said:
Vintage guns in 450/400 3" are pretty rare. I see the 3.25" more often. But if I found one in good shape, I would pick it over a Chapuis. Im not sure I entirely trust the adjustable system Chapuis uses to regulate its doubles. Vintage guns (depending on make) can be made to a very high standard and cost the same as a modern gun of much lower grade.
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Vintage 450/400 3” guns are out there, especially Jeffery’s.
 
Mtn_Infantry said:
Vintage 450/400 3” guns are out there, especially Jeffery’s.
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Oh I know they exist, i put up a link to one on GI recently. I just wanted to point out that they arent nearly as common as the 3.25".
 
PCC600 said:
I really like the 450/400 3inch cartridge . I have a Westley Richards DR and a Ruger No1. I use the same Hornady factory ammo in both. I am a reloader but frankly there is no need in this instance . The DR regulates pretty well with the Hornady .
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What mfg date range is your Westley Richard’s? I have a 1912 Westley Richards I. 450/400 3” that didn’t seem to care for for the Hornady factory loads when JJ tried it. Didn’t really like CEB or Northfork Semi Spitzers either, but loves A-frames. Waiting on some Woodleigh to try as well, but was shocked between the regulation (Left-Right spread between the Aframes and others.

If someone were to consider 450/400 3 1/4” as well as 3”, it would make finding a prime example easier for sure. If reloading, not much harm in going with a 3 1/4” once you have dies and keep up with your brass requirements.
 
Wildwillalaska said:
What mfg date range is your Westley Richard’s? I have a 1912 Westley Richards I. 450/400 3” that didn’t seem to care for for the Hornady factory loads when JJ tried it. Didn’t really like CEB or Northfork Semi Spitzers either, but loves A-frames. Waiting on some Woodleigh to try as well, but was shocked between the regulation (Left-Right spread between the Aframes and others.

If someone were to consider 450/400 3 1/4” as well as 3”, it would make finding a prime example easier for sure. If reloading, not much harm in going with a 3 1/4” once you have dies and keep up with your brass requirements.
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Ordered in 1919 completed in 1920 . A sidelock built by H. Leonard in Birmingham . Sold via WR’s London shop to the Maharana of Udaipur . 26 inch barrels . A dream to shoot . Two Purdey lumps , Webley screw grip and a Greener cross bolt . An exceptionally strong action .
 

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The one in the middle, Joseph Lang boxlock, PHV-1 action and 28" barrels, .450/400 3.25NE from 1906. It regulates at 30mm with original Kynoch ammo at 50 yards. Scaled down action, very handy..

Rifles1.jpg
 
Mtn_Infantry said:
Recently the QC on Chapuis has been struggling. Several well known dealers who specialize in double rifles have all but stopped carrying them after having to return 70-100% of the rifles they’ve received.

To answer your question about a vintage double and factory hornady, I personally wouldn’t. The modern metallurgy vs that used in vintage guns is different. Modern powders used by Hornady and other modern ammo manufacturers is different and produces different pressure curves as the bullets travel down the barrel.
Click to expand...
Im having issues with my Chapuis (9.3x74r) but they're honouring a warrenty on it despite it being used and 23yrs since it was made. That said i think i got it barely uaed and the issue isn't fixed yet (broken extractor springs and brokem firing pins twice in 6 months)

Also, they've just been bought by Beretta (who also owns H&H amoung a lot of other brands), so they should have the ability and money to get it right
 
The answer to your question on vintage doubles and modern ammo-highly unlikely that it would regulate properly, if it did it would be pure luck and a small percentage at that. Add to that the potential to ruin vintage barrels with some of the modern solids, not something I’d want to find out the hard way.

Chapuis in fact was purchased by beretta holdings, quality has improved dramatically with manufacturing updates and innovation. Service is performed at the beretta gallery in Texas.
 
Absolutely love the old British doubles but I would buy modern.Many of the old guns are just that-old.
The guys that can repair them are getting thinner on the ground.
 
Many older rifles have a lot more drop than we tend to prefer these days. Even with off-the-shelf stock dimensions, modern rifles will likely fit better.

This doesn't really apply to the Chapuis, but one advantage of buying new in a higher price point (Merkel, Heym) is custom stock dimensions. Helps both with pointability (rifle automatically aims where you're looking) as well as recoil management.
 
uplander01 said:
Chapuis in fact was purchased by beretta holdings, quality has improved dramatically with manufacturing updates and innovation. Service is performed at the beretta gallery in Texas.
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I think that is debatable…

Even the Beretta Gallery sales reps will tell you they have had an increase in problems with new Chapuis rifles that have arrived over the last couple of years… and JJ has little good to say about recent QA/QC..

That’s not to say they can’t turn out an excellent rifle for the price… my wife has a 375 iphisi that was manufactured last year that is exquisite…

But I personally know of at least 3 people that have bought Chapuis in the last couple of years that have had problems.. 2 to the point that the rifles were returned…all three are members here on AH…

If I know of three, the real number is obviously much higher..
 
I just picked up a Chapius 450/400 from George at Chamlpin few weeks ago he had 2 more in stock $15,300. Gun shoots really nice, sent it to JJ to get LOP fitted for me and machine rib for RMR red dot if I so choose to get one.
 
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