New vs vintage 450/400NE double rifle

[Mtn_Infantry]

Im having issues with my Chapuis (9.3x74r) but they're honouring a warrenty on it despite it being used and 23yrs since it was made. That said i think i got it barely uaed and the issue isn't fixed yet (broken extractor springs and brokem firing pins twice in 6 months)

Also, they've just been bought by Beretta (who also owns H&H amoung a lot of other brands), so they should have the ability and money to get it right

They’ve been owned by Beretta/Benelli for some time. Glad your warranty work has been handled well.

I know response to the dealers has been “the guns are perfectly acceptable” when the top lever is at a 45 degree and hanging over the wood, or it’s not locking tightly which is why a couple of dealers in question have moved away from the brand. I also know there’s been a bunch of turnover staff wise which might contribute to this. Like @mdwest said even some of the Beretta employees at the gallery have admitted to seeing QC/QA slip the last few years. When big shops and names that have made their name selling doubles no longer standby or carry the product there’s an issue.

 

[roverandbrew]

As someone who recently purchased and returned a Chapuis Iphisi, my recommendation is to save for a Heym. The Beretta Gallery is providing assistance to rectify the situation and I have no issues with them. They are communicating and doing their best. My honest thoughts are anything less than a Heym is a gamble.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I hope one day in the next few years to purchase my first double rifle. I have pretty much decided on a 450/400 Chapius but I occasionally see a vintage British 450/400NE 3in in a similar price range of the Chapius. My question for everyone is if you don't reload your own ammunition, does factory specifically Hornady ammo tend (emphasis on tend) to regulate decent in older British 450/400s? Thoughts?

I recommend going for a modern double rifle. Such as a Heym or Merkel. Chapuis is also good but I personally prefer the former two.

Aside from the regulation factor, British double rifles built before 1950 may or may not be safe to use with steel jacketed bullets (such as the Hornady DGS). You must have the barrel hardness measured. If barrel hardness is lower than 230 Vickers, then steel jacketed bullets must not be used in it.

 

[Rare Breed]

Many older rifles have a lot more drop than we tend to prefer these days. Even with off-the-shelf stock dimensions, modern rifles will likely fit better.

This doesn't really apply to the Chapuis, but one advantage of buying new in a higher price point (Merkel, Heym) is custom stock dimensions. Helps both with pointability (rifle automatically aims where you're looking) as well as recoil management.

Not so my friend...if you buy from George Caswell at Champlain he will take the 15 LOP Chapuis and cut to your own LOP...he did for me and does for anyone...the other distributors do not do this...plus George gives a lifetime guarantee...I know because I bought one in 450-400 3-inch NE.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Not so my friend...if you buy from George Caswell at Champlain he will take the 15 LOP Chapuis and cut to your own LOP...he did for me and does for anyone...the other distributors do not do this...plus George gives a lifetime guarantee...I know because I bought one in 450-400 3-inch NE.

There’s a difference between a custom fit stock and on cut to fit you. George doesn’t/can’t adjust the drop at comb, drop at heel, or the cast. Other modern manufacturers can and will if you give them your stock dimensions, and some manufacturers will include a custom fitting in the price of the gun/build.

 

[Rare Breed]

While I completely agree with your point having the right LOP solves the vast majority of your problems along with proper weight for caliber. Having owned 8 it has worked well for me with the first disaster when I failed on both was a great teacher

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

While I completely agree with your point having the right LOP solves the vast majority of your problems along with proper weight for caliber. Having owned 8 it has worked well for me with the first disaster when I failed on both was a great teacher

If you’ve never had a true stock fitting you won’t understand how incredibly wrong you are especially when it comes to a double rifle or shotgun. I thought I knew but realized how wrong I was and that I truly didn’t understand it until I sat with Jerome from Rigby a few weeks ago.

I was killing some time and letting him look over/play with one of my doubles. Jerome saw how small the gun was for me so he had me play with his fitting stock and it was truly eye opening for both of us. Seeing as how I prefer vintage over new, I’m going to always have to make do but safe to say I’ll never find a gun that will truly fit me even if it’s got Ogre LOP.

 

[PCC600]

If you’ve never had a true stock fitting you won’t understand how incredibly wrong you are especially when it comes to a double rifle or shotgun. I thought I knew but realized how wrong I was and that I truly didn’t understand it until I sat with Jerome from Rigby a few weeks ago.

I was killing some time and letting him look over/play with one of my doubles. Jerome saw how small the gun was for me so he had me play with his fitting stock and it was truly eye opening for both of us. Seeing as how I prefer vintage over new, I’m going to always have to make do but safe to say I’ll never find a gun that will truly fit me even if it’s got Ogre LOP.

Yes Jerome at Rigby was fixated on cast off for me rather than LOP . He wanted my right eye running up the rib on the double rifle . Similarly when I was fitted at H&H years ago . Having said all this I shoot a lot of old rifles and shotguns - I do not modify the stocks , I just get used to them .

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Yes Jerome at Rigby was fixated on cast off for me rather than LOP . He wanted my right eye running up the rib on the double rifle . Similarly when I was fitted at H&H years ago . Having said all this I shoot a lot of old rifles and shotguns - I do not modify the stocks , I just get used to them .

I’m the exact same way but I maxed his fitting stock out at the 16.5” LOP and was told I’m a touch longer so the traditional 14.5-14.75” LOP is over 2” short for me and noticeable. He was also very fixated on the drop for me. Essentially I was told I had different parts from a variety of animals and I said at least you’re not calling me a whale.

 

[PCC600]

I’m the exact same way but I maxed his fitting stock out at the 16.5” LOP and was told I’m a touch longer so the traditional 14.5-14.75” LOP is over 2” short for me and noticeable. He was also very fixated on the drop for me. Essentially I was told I had different parts from a variety of animals and I said at least you’re not calling me a whale.

I’m wide and a shade under 6feet tall . Sounds like you are very tall and possibly big across the shoulders too . I remember years ago being measured up for a suit in Saville Row and the tailor kept telling me I was a “powerful man”. I came away feeling very good about myself . After walking about a block I realised he was telling me I was a fat old bastard - but in the nicest possible way .

 

[Russ16]

I’m wide and a shade under 6feet tall . Sounds like you are very tall and possibly big across the shoulders too . I remember years ago being measured up for a suit in Saville Row and the tailor kept telling me I was a “powerful man”. I came away feeling very good about myself . After walking about a block I realised he was telling me I was a fat old bastard - but in the nicest possible way .

I know the feeling. My tailor always says I have an “athletic” build. What he means is I have a big butt.

I’m lucky when it comes to guns. I have gave that actually needs a touch of cast on and a long LOP. So with my vintage guns a couple strips of easily removable moleskin tape and a slip on leather but pad generally gets them pretty darn close to the right dimensions.

 

[PCC600]

I know the feeling. My tailor always says I have an “athletic” build. What he means is I have a big butt.

I’m lucky when it comes to guns. I have gave that actually needs a touch of cast on and a long LOP. So with my vintage guns a couple strips of easily removable moleskin tape and a slip on leather but pad generally gets them pretty darn close to the right dimensions.

I often use a Pachmayer type slip on pad on the stock .They work pretty well .

 

[Tucketed]

Agree on the slip on decelerator pad. Use them on all of my rifles to increase LOP. Just make sure you remove them before storing the rifle.

 

[mdwest]

I got my eyes opened when my youngest got really serious about competitive shotgun…

I thought getting her “fitted” was going to be as simple as having her mount the gun a few times and then having the stock cut down…

It was instead about a 45 minute affair that involved not just getting the length right, but also 3 different angles… and having them all converge in the perfect place so that when she picked the gun up off the table and threw it into her shoulder, her eye aligned perfectly with both the bead and the rib…

Was a pretty cool process to watch…

And it undoubtedly made her a better and more “instinctive” and faster shooter…

 

[Russ16]

Agree on the slip on decelerator pad. Use them on all of my rifles to increase LOP. Just make sure you remove them before storing the rifle.

I only use them on my shotguns. I use the Galco leather slip on pads. I've never had a problem storing the gun with them on.

 

[Rare Breed]

I got my eyes opened when my youngest got really serious about competitive shotgun…

I thought getting her “fitted” was going to be as simple as having her mount the gun a few times and then having the stock cut down…

It was instead about a 45 minute affair that involved not just getting the length right, but also 3 different angles… and having them all converge in the perfect place so that when she picked the gun up off the table and threw it into her shoulder, her eye aligned perfectly with both the bead and the rib…

Was a pretty cool process to watch…

And it undoubtedly made her a better and more “instinctive” and faster shooter…

Great insight! All great points that have also opened my eyes!

 

[Certus]

Vintage guns in 450/400 3" are pretty rare. I see the 3.25" more often. But if I found one in good shape, I would pick it over a Chapuis. Im not sure I entirely trust the adjustable system Chapuis uses to regulate its doubles. Vintage guns (depending on make) can be made to a very high standard and cost the same as a modern gun of much lower grade.

Interesting! I seem to see more 3”, and I mean in vintage guns. I’d rather 3 1/4” but purely based on looks, and I’d like a hammer gun.

 

[matt85]

Interesting! I seem to see more 3”, and I mean in vintage guns. I’d rather 3 1/4” but purely based on looks, and I’d like a hammer gun.

My experience might not be the norm, I just seem to see more 3.25" guns when surfing gunsinternational on my never-ending search for the right 577 double.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

If you’ve never had a true stock fitting you won’t understand how incredibly wrong you are especially when it comes to a double rifle or shotgun. I thought I knew but realized how wrong I was and that I truly didn’t understand it until I sat with Jerome from Rigby a few weeks ago.

I was killing some time and letting him look over/play with one of my doubles. Jerome saw how small the gun was for me so he had me play with his fitting stock and it was truly eye opening for both of us. Seeing as how I prefer vintage over new, I’m going to always have to make do but safe to say I’ll never find a gun that will truly fit me even if it’s got Ogre LOP.

I will have to say that not everyone needs 17.85” LOP and need additional inches of drop or cast. At SCI this year on the first morning I was talking with Jerome about the Shikari and questions as I’d like to get a special rifle for my 60th possibly.

Jerome really get into a lot of our conversation about the different barrel makers and options on the Shikari. He pretty quickly wanted to fit me out for the stock in case I decided to order before making it through London. He was very diligent and we spent some time at it, but he ultimately concluded I was an easy fit. While my LOP was a hair longer than I’d expected at 15.35”, he said I was easy since standard drop and cast were perfect for me.

Actually tracked what I’ve personally experienced with my Heyms. Other than my 450NE that was 15.25”, all the others had thicker pads or small spacer to get me close to 15” which is what I thought my sweet spot was before Jerome’s fitting me. But the standard drop and cast work well for me.

Long story short, fitting for some is not as big a deal as just getting the LOP right. For others, it’s barely a start to unpack what unique needs they have.

 

[Garciamarquez1918]

450/400 from George

I never know with George Caswell's listings whether the rifle is actually newly listed or just being relisted but I got a notification on this rifle from GI today. If you're willing to go with the Kreighoff safety system its seems like a lot of rifle for the money.