Heym or Verney Carron?

[Mlibizi 8182]

My wife a Zimbabwe LPH feels it is time to move up to a .470. At this time she shoots a Heym .450-400 which she loves. After examing both at Safai Outdoors in RSA. I believe the Heym is stronger, but slightly muzzle heavy and 2 oz. lighter. Wood and appearance on the VC is nicer, but has nothing to do with function. Alas I forgot to find out which ammo each was regulated for, reloading is not a option.
I also forgot to check the regulation targets. I know there are members who have had experience with one or the other but is there anyone with experience with both

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

My wife a Zimbabwe LPH feels it is time to move up to a .470. At this time she shoots a Heym .450-400 which she loves. After examing both at Safai Outdoors in RSA. I believe the Heym is stronger, but slightly muzzle heavy and 2 oz. lighter. Wood and appearance on the VC is nicer, but has nothing to do with function. Alas I forgot to find out which ammo each was regulated for, reloading is not a option.
I also forgot to check the regulation targets. I know there are members who have had experience with one or the other but is there anyone with experience with both

My only experience with both of these is holding, pointing, hugging, fondling and drooling over both while at the shows. I really liked both of them. I'd agree the VC is a nicer piece of work and it also felt better in my hands. I don't exactly have large hands and this may be why. As an engineer, I did feel like the Heym was everything I'd expect from a good German mechanical engineer.

I think therefore if I were a PH, I'd feel like the Heym represented the better choice in function being more important over the better form of the VC. That's the best I can give you. Best of luck with what you choose!

 

[Mlibizi 8182]

I am certainly not a engineer, but I noticed the tripple lock system all a the bottom of the receiver as opposed to what I believe the stronger bottom locks + greener type cross bolt upper with semi-dolls head. Of interest the Heym .470 is oz. lighter than the same rifle in .450-400. Both Heym receivers appear the same, but a lot more barrel steel at the breech in the .450-.400

 

[IvW]

Both are good.

I believe the VC has a stronger action as it has a unique lock-up with three lugs on the bottom of the barrel set, that fit into three slots in the action body. The rifle doesn’t have a top lock-up(crossbolt), which I also find to be an advantage as the barrels are smooth without the piece of steel for the crossbolt which could fractuanaly increase reloading speed.

VC will also make your stock to fit and you can have all sorts of things added on as you please(flip up low light front sight, intercepting sears on the triggers etc.)

Fit is everything on a double, they will measure you before you order and for the same price basically custom build the stock for you.

You can also specify caliber as well as barrel length.

If the Heym fits, that is ok but I would speak to Jerome and get a VC.

 

[Mlibizi 8182]

Thanks the decision will be made over the next several months. As I stated I am not a engineer but I lean toward the Heym being stronger. As to being faster to load I have used english doubles all with dolls heads I have never felt that they have interfered with my reloading time. As to fit my wife is fortunant people who most rifles seem to fit her perfect. In my life I have fitted dozens of people for shotgun stocks, very similar to a doubles stock. Believe it or not she does not care about wood and dislikes engraving. She says the Heym looks likes it is ready to go to work! What can I say? I have heard some really good things about Jerome with VC. I will not comment about Heym other than they have a great price for African PHs. Not sure about VC. Her .450-400 will get her through this year, but as she has to sort out more elephant she wants a .470 unfortunately she does not like old english dbls. As I had two she could have chosen from a Hollis and a Manton

 

[jand]

I have experience with both. They are both good double Rifles . I have chosen to own 2 Verneys. My next will be a 450 - 400 . I believe they are stronger and by far much better looking , which after all is also important on a double rifle.
Jerome is a class act and will fit your verney perfectly . You can also choose the ammunition you would like your rifle regulated with. Reloading does not seem to be a problem either. My verneys were easy to find a regulating self load with.
Jerome will be at the Huntex show again in April.
You are welcome to PM me.

 

[Mlibizi 8182]

Hi Thanks for that info reloading is not a option in Zim at least for me. My George Gibbs

 

[Mlibizi 8182]

Sorry I did not mean to send the incomplete message as I was saying my personal double is a pre war George Gibbs regulated for Federal Premium woodleigh which have always performed as expected it only makes sense that we both use the same ammo, especially in Zim. with the difficulties and costs involved. I may try to make it to the expo if time allows. I have heard nothing but good things about Jerome. Does anyone know if Heym has a qualified rep at the show or just a salesman?

 

[IvW]

Sounds like she knows what she wants, let her choose.

 

[AZDAVE]

I have a VC in 450/400 and it is a very nice rifle. as many have pointed out Jerome is a stand up guy and their customer service is very good and they will fit your double like it was a fin bird gun. I haven't had any experience in owning a Heym but the few I have shot; they are solid well made rifle that each owner swore by. I keep looking at them at the shows but haven't had one follow me home yet. All that said since it is for your wife I would take her to the show and let her pick as I know my wife is VERY particular about her rifles and what she wants. Would speak with both the VC and Heym reps and just tell them the only two requirements that they have to meet is that the rifle has to regulate with the same ammo that your Gibbs does and they have to make you wife happy with the rifle she decides on. The Happy wife=Happy Life option.

 

[Mlibizi 8182]

I do respect all of the opinions given. In addition everything that I hear about Jerome is number 1 that makes a big difference. I am not saying that the VC locking system is better or worse, but is a radical departure from what I am use to in English and to a lesser extent German locking. I had came across despairing remarks by something someone had heard or read. I just listen and consider the source.
If possible we will visit the expo in April. I did contact a message concerning a fitting from Heym I have had no reply.

 

[IvW]

I would be surprised if Heym reply, they normally do not.

By the way the greener cross bolt ads no strength to the functionality of the action.

 

[CTDolan]

By the way the greener cross bolt ads no strength to the functionality of the action.

This is incorrect. The Greener cross bolt does add to the strength of the action. Properly jointed, it's often unnecessary, but if itself well fitted, a cross bolt serves to directly counter thrust.

Third fasteners are almost universally applied to double rifles which follow the English pattern of lock-up (double under lugs, jointed with a good bearing on the circle, etc.). Some are broadly misunderstood, though, most of all the concealed fastener, as is common with Holland & Holland (pictured below). The concealed third fastener is intended to counter thrust by virtue of inhibiting a bending of the bar (which it does by acting in a plane perpendicular to that commonly supposed). Most view it as just another grip, but it's not and functions in a manner fundamentally different than the two on the bottom lug (of which only the rear is brought to bear when jointing, the front being for all intents and purposes there to work in conjunction with the run-up).

 

[CTDolan]

As for Verney-Carron's method of lock-up (below), I am not familiar with the design and so cannot speak to its merits or detraction (it looks to have one hell of a lot of meat projecting into the bar, a lot of contact, but not knowing what the bar looks like in section (there appears to be no cocking levers, for one) I'm not in a position to critique). Quite likely it is a thoroughly sound system.

 

[Pondoro]

The Heym has a pretty strong action but the V-C is probably even stronger. Of the two I like the V-C best...it balances like a british double...german double rifles (Heym..Krieghoff) tend to be muzzle heavy, something I hate..

Also as pointed out...V-C tend to have very good personal service and will make the rifle fit her right...they have a more classic look too..and fit is everything here, as pointed out too..

Out of curiosity...why does she not like british doubles..??

Or let me rephraise myself, whats not to like about british double rifles..?

 

[Mlibizi 8182]

How do you explain how a woman thinks. She says she does like all of that little "squiggly stuff" called engraving! I have a nice Westley Richards .450-.400 that stands in the safe. She likes her Heym, I have to admit she is incredibly accurate with it! She is savvy enough that she knows she must move up to a .470. I am sure both the Heym & VC are both strong actions. Occasional while visiting south africa I will see a Ferrari, nice Merc. She just says you can't load a buffalo in it, does that help explain?

 

[1dirthawker]

milibizi,

why does she have to move up to a 470? a 450-400 will kill anything that walks.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

How do you explain how a woman thinks.

If I ever figure it out for myself, I may then make an effort to explain it to others. Not holding out hope however.

That said, it certainly couldn't hurt things to take her on a vacation to France and while there drop into the VC factory and order it there.

 

[Mlibizi 8182]

As a professional hunter you need to stop the animal not just "shoot the animal and wait for it to die" the .458 .470 class is just about minimum. 500 up is better if the person is comfortable with the weight and recoil.

 

[Mlibizi 8182]

Trip to France? She would rather be in the bush or in the front of the lodge fly fishing for tigers! Hhmm, I guess she is not so strange after all!