Politics

[skydiver386]

Agreed, but why do those “in the know” in our government, Press and military never speak of the common practice of homosexual sex amongst Islamic troops and Islamic men? I am told by my SFO friends and other military vets about the widespread practice of Islamic soldiers having sex with each other and how common it is in all Islamic countries and that their culture believes it is acceptable in situations where women cannot be present. Why is this hidden from the West and our people? Why is it not talked about? And most Muslims think the West is corrupt and immoral???

What you're referring to is the practice of Bacha Bazi. It's especially prevalent in Afghanistan with young boys who are sexually abused by much older men. I've heard it's also widespread in Islamic parts of Asia and Africa.

Most likely because the practice of sex with other men and young boys predates Islam.

 

[Red Leg]

I wonder if the pictures are even real. I have not seen a single fat military person on the news.

Regardless, I do remember the AF Guard having a complete different set of standards as the Active-Duty members did. The AF Reserve cave in to the Active Duty standards and set the same standard as our Active-Duty counter parts. As a full time Reservist, it was easy for me to meet the standards, but for those who came in twice a month, they had to find the time on their own to stay fit. Lots of injuries. Now, the Air Force has changed their PT once again. This is going to be interesting.

I have seen obese individuals (males & females) on base, and based on their uniform patches, these are Active-Duty members. I've also heard rumors of what's coming in the next couple of months, and fat Airmen are not happy.

The military needs to go back to old standards, UCMJ, discipline, integrity, accountability, and to follow the Oath of Enlistment to the tee.

I regret to say a number of us old retired guys were heartedly lamenting the appearance of our troops during the US Army birthday parade. Many were clearly unable to meet the then current height weight standard, and numerous units were having difficulty simply marching in step. That sort of discipline can be destroyed across the force fairly quickly, and is a bear to reinstate as we discovered in the early eighties.

 

[RLD]

Agreed, but why do those “in the know” in our government, Press and military never speak of the common practice of homosexual sex amongst Islamic troops and Islamic men? I am told by my SFO friends and other military vets about the widespread practice of Islamic soldiers having sex with each other and how common it is in all Islamic countries and that their culture believes it is acceptable in situations where women cannot be present. Why is this hidden from the West and our people? Why is it not talked about? And most Muslims think the West is corrupt and immoral???

Situational sexuality, and situational homosexuality are long studied and understood phenomena. It don't just occur amongst muslim populations. It occurs in prisons, religious institutions, colleges, isolated labour groups and all sorts of military units, historic and modern.

But so I understand your concern, are you suggesting that our politicians or press should be suggesting that consensual homosexuality is corrupt or immoral?

 

[RLD]

What you're referring to is the practice of Bacha Bazi. It's especially prevalent in Afghanistan with young boys who are sexually abused by much older men. I've heard it's also widespread in Islamic parts of Asia and Africa.

Most likely because the practice of sex with other men and young boys predates Islam.

The Romans were particularly active in that way.

 

[skydiver386]

The Romans were particularly active in that way.

And the Greeks.

 

[mdwest]

What you're referring to is the practice of Bacha Bazi. It's especially prevalent in Afghanistan with young boys who are sexually abused by much older men. I've heard it's also widespread in Islamic parts of Asia and Africa.

Most likely because the practice of sex with other men and young boys predates Islam.

I had more than one prominent Afghan tell me "women are for making babies. young boys are for pleasure."

Its a perverse mindset.. especially for anyone steeped in western culture.. but I never really equated it to Islam (although Afghanistan is clearly more muslim than not). I assigned it more to certain tribal and regional cultures that just happen to be found in a muslim dominated society..

to be truthful I never looked into it much, but my understanding is it is much more common among the northern tribes in Afghanistan and some of the bordering countries, and you dont see it nearly as much in the south or western areas..

typical homosexuality you certainly see (although not nearly as open or often as in the western world) throughout SW Asia and the Middle East... but the practice of bacha bazi I never saw or heard anything about in say Kuwait, Saudi, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon when I was in those countries..

A contributing problem throughout Afghanistan and the surrounding region, as well as throughout the middle east when it comes to sexual behaviors that are obscene to westerners is that getting married or even "dating" (finding a woman just to spend time with) is incredibly difficult for young men in many of those countries.. there are cultural barriers that make it hard, there are financial issues that make it hard, etc etc.. so you find them resorting to things like rape, beastiality, incest, and bachi bazi...

Not making excuses for them in any way, shape, or form... just noting that its often difficult for westerners to understand whats going on in the mind of a 20-40 year old Afghan unless you get to know a few really, really well... which is something most westerners really dont have an interest in doing..

 

[Scott CWO]

I had more than one prominent Afghan tell me "women are for making babies. young boys are for pleasure."

Its a perverse mindset.. especially for anyone steeped in western culture.. but I never really equated it to Islam (although Afghanistan is clearly more muslim than not). I assigned it more to certain tribal and regional cultures that just happen to be found in a muslim dominated society..

to be truthful I never looked into it much, but my understanding is it is much more common among the northern tribes in Afghanistan and some of the bordering countries, and you dont see it nearly as much in the south or western areas..

typical homosexuality you certainly see (although not nearly as open or often as in the western world) throughout SW Asia and the Middle East... but the practice of bacha bazi I never saw or heard anything about in say Kuwait, Saudi, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon when I was in those countries..

A contributing problem throughout Afghanistan and the surrounding region, as well as throughout the middle east when it comes to sexual behaviors that are obscene to westerners is that getting married or even "dating" (finding a woman just to spend time with) is incredibly difficult for young men in many of those countries.. there are cultural barriers that make it hard, there are financial issues that make it hard, etc etc.. so you find them resorting to things like rape, beastiality, incest, and bachi bazi...

Not making excuses for them in any way, shape, or form... just noting that its often difficult for westerners to understand whats going on in the mind of a 20-40 year old Afghan unless you get to know a few really, really well... which is something most westerners really dont have an interest in doing..

According to my friends, sex among Islamic troops is widespread in Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries as well. In Operation Desert Storm, it was witnessed by US recon troops that were sneaking across the Iraqi and Kuwaiti borders at night to spy on Iraqi armored troops in their bunkers before the ground invasion. Yet nobody talks about it in public?

 

[Scott CWO]

Situational sexuality, and situational homosexuality are long studied and understood phenomena. It don't just occur amongst muslim populations. It occurs in prisons, religious institutions, colleges, isolated labour groups and all sorts of military units, historic and modern.

But so I understand your concern, are you suggesting that our politicians or press should be suggesting that consensual homosexuality is corrupt or immoral?

I’m suggesting that many Muslims attempt to take the high ground and refer to Westerners as immoral and they publicly condemn Western homosexuality yet it is a widespread practice among adult Muslim men when women are not present. It is their dirty little secret. It’s also not just about boys, although that is much worse.

 

[mdwest]

According to my friends, sex among Islamic troops is widespread in Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries as well. In Operation Desert Storm, it was witnessed by US recon troops that were sneaking across the Iraqi and Kuwaiti borders at night to spy on Iraqi armored troops in their bunkers before the ground invasion. Yet nobody talks about it in public?

homosexual sex, absolutely true... You'll see that in Iraq and the other countries in the Levant as well as the gulf states.. and in Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc..

Bacha Bazi (an almost ritualistic practice where groups of men gather to have sex with young boys that are often dressed as young girls, or at least effeminately dressed, that dance for the men, etc in something of an all night bender type affair) I believe is almost exclusively limited to Afghanistan and a few small areas in bordering countries..

There was a running joke in Iraq about not being out on the streets of the IZ/Green Zone on thursday nights because it was "man love thursdays" and you might find yourself being pursued by young Iraqi men while out on your midnight jog...

That more ties in with what I was saying in the previous post.. the challenges with young men finding mates in the levant and the gulf region are substantial.. this is especially true if the young man doesnt come from a family of wealth or prominence..

Whats particularly interesting is if you talk to them, most young Iraqi/Syrian/Jordanian/etc men dont consider occasional sex with another man to be "gay"..its really to them more about the release of sexual frustration, or power (think prison sex), etc.. just like some of them will have sex with domesticated animals, etc.. its only "gay" if you actually live a "gay" lifestyle or dont want to have sex with a woman, etc..

Like I was saying.. really hard for a westerner to get their brain wrapped around... and Im definitely not advocating or condoning the behavior(s) in any way.. just saying after getting to know many Afghans, Iraqis, Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians, Kuwaitis, Saudis, etc over the decades, that their mindset and beliefs as they relate to sex is very different than ours..

Another example of how things are different.. stealing in all cultures is known to be wrong..

In the US the act of stealing is wrong.. whether you are caught or not... you are a bad guy if you steal..

In some middle eastern cultures the act of stealing isnt the problem... stealing becomes wrong if you get caught.. that means you did something that was risky, and you werent crafty, wiley, or smart enough to get away with it.. so you should be punished...

Same end result.. but very different way of looking at the same issue..

As far as no one talking about it.. Ive seen/heard a lot of talk about it.. there are videos that have been uploaded to youtube and other platforms of Iraqi's out humping sheep or cattle in the middle of the night that troops recorded on their thermal imagers... there have been several stories written in publications about SOF troops having to deal with things like bacha bazi in their presence when embedded with Afghan troops, etc..

There at one time was a pretty active push from the military to suppress some of the bacha bazi stories coming out for political reasons (among others).. and there was at least one incident that Im aware of where some guys actually got brought up on charges by the US military for trying to stop the practice, etc..

I think the bigger problem is.. no one really seems to care (perhaps a problem with our own society crumbling to the point where we have become apathetic?)..

Military Overlooked Sexual Abuse by Afghan Allies, Investigation Says | FRONTLINE | PBS | Official Site | Documentary Series

A new investigation by The New York Times finds that U.S. soldiers were told not to intervene in cases of sexual abuse of young boys by Afghan allies.

www.pbs.org

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www.cnn.com

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www.npr.org

 

[Scott CWO]

homosexual sex, absolutely true... You'll see that in Iraq and the other countries in the Levant as well as the gulf states.. and in Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc..

Bacha Bazi (an almost ritualistic practice where groups of men gather to have sex with young boys that are often dressed as young girls, or at least effeminately dressed, that dance for the men, etc in something of an all night bender type affair) I believe is almost exclusively limited to Afghanistan and a few small areas in bordering countries..

There was a running joke in Iraq about not being out on the streets of the IZ/Green Zone on thursday nights because it was "man love thursdays" and you might find yourself being pursued by young Iraqi men while out on your midnight job...

That more ties in with what I was saying in the previous post.. the challenges with young men finding mates in the levant and the gulf region are substantial.. this is especially true if the young man doesnt come from a family of wealth or prominence..

Whats particularly interesting is if you talk to them, most young Iraqi/Syrian/Jordanian/etc men dont consider occasional sex with another man to be "gay"..its really to them more about the release of sexual frustration, or power (think prison sex), etc.. just like some of them will have sex with domesticated animals, etc.. its only "gay" if you actually live a "gay" lifestyle or dont want to have sex with a woman, etc..

Like I was saying.. really hard for a westerner to get their brain wrapped around... and Im definitely not advocating or condoning the behavior(s) in any way.. just saying after getting to know many Afghans, Iraqis, Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians, Kuwaitis, Saudis, etc over the decades, that their mindset and beliefs as they relate to sex is very different than ours..

Another example of how things are different.. stealing in all cultures is known to be wrong..

In the US the act of stealing is wrong.. whether you are caught or not... you are a bad guy if you steal..

In some middle eastern cultures the act of stealing isnt the problem... stealing becomes wrong if you get caught.. that means you did something that was risky, and you werent crafty, wiley, or smart enough to get away with it.. so you should be punished...

Same end result.. but very different way of looking at the same issue..

Yes and I am told it is not just a few men but that it is fairly widespread and acceptable in the culture.

 

[PARA45]

I heard stories of the POWs in Gitmo doing it though the fence. It seemed like it was common practice, I can’t remember the term, but had something to do with the chain link fence.

 

[RLD]

I’m suggesting that many Muslims attempt to take the high ground and refer to Westerners as immoral and they publicly condemn Western homosexuality yet it is a widespread practice among adult Muslim men when women are not present. It is their dirty little secret. It’s also not just about boys, although that is much worse.

It's all the same back and forth. They call us immoral, you say their homosexual acts are immoral. Just the same tribal name calling. It goes nowhere.

But, for this specific action to be called out as immoral, the politician etc would have to start with the premise that consensual homosexuality is immoral. That isn't going to happen.

 

[Brent in Az]

I heard stories of the POWs in Gitmo doing it though the fence. It seemed like it was common practice, I can’t remember the term, but had something to do with the chain link fence.

Chain link Glory hole?........Eeeewwhhhh

 

[Vashper]

It starts way younger than grown men. Have you heard of the dancing boys of Afghanistan? Plenty of videos on YT. I've also heard that in a good part of the male ME population the saying is, "Women are for procreation. Men are for fun.". Meaning of course that it's preferred.

Muhammad banged a 9 yr old. He's a gteat example of morality.

The left wing MSM doesn't talk about things that would lose muslim votes. No Jews, no news.

It is unlikely that this has a direct relationship to Islam, rather some kind of local customs. There is nothing about this in the Quran, and later Islamic institutions believe that sodomy is worse than zina (adultery), since sex in adultery could be legalized by marriage, while sodomy can never be legalized. ISIS militants in Syria exterminated homosexuals, however, they also cut off the fingers of smokers.Asia has its own customs, for example, back in ancient times, the Greeks saw nothing wrong with male nudity, while the Syrians and Persians were always dressed.
In Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia, there is such a thing as "bacha bazi" - erotic dances of boys. The great military artist Vereshchagin had several paintings on this subject after his trip to Central Asia. The Mullahs condemn this, and I have heard from Afghans that during the American occupation, on the contrary, it was encouraged by the authorities

 

[CJW]

It's all the same back and forth. They call us immoral, you say their homosexual acts are immoral. Just the same tribal name calling. It goes nowhere.

But, for this specific action to be called out as immoral, the politician etc would have to start with the premise that consensual homosexuality is immoral. That isn't going to happen.

Moral or immoral aside, there is the fact that they throw homosexuals or suspected homosexuals off of roofs, yet go crawl into a tent together.

 

[mdwest]

Moral or immoral aside, there is the fact that they throw homosexuals or suspected homosexuals off of roofs, yet go crawl into a tent together.

Again, you have to define homosexual first though.. our definition isnt the same as theirs..

merely participating in a homosexual act in many parts of the middle east does not make someone a homosexual per their standards..

when you decide you only like people of the same sex and refuse to have sex with the opposite sex, or you live an openly homosexual lifestyle do many see you as a "homosexual"..

 

[RLD]

Moral or immoral aside, there is the fact that they throw homosexuals or suspected homosexuals off of roofs, yet go crawl into a tent together.

Not the same folks I suspect.

You can get sex change surgery in Iran if you want it. You can't in Saudi.

Islam is as complex and varied as the Christian West. You cannot simply paint all of Islam with one big brush, any more than you can say the United Church and the Roman Catholics are all the same.

 

[LivingTheDream]

It's all the same back and forth. They call us immoral, you say their homosexual acts are immoral. Just the same tribal name calling. It goes nowhere.

But, for this specific action to be called out as immoral, the politician etc would have to start with the premise that consensual homosexuality is immoral. That isn't going to happen.

Having sex with a child, regardless of culture, is immoral and wrong. Full stop.

 

[RLD]

Having sex with a child, regardless of culture, is immoral and wrong. Full stop.

I agree, which is why I specified consensual homosexuality in my comments.

Now who is a "child" varies in place and time, and we in the west are in no position to throw stones when it comes to child sex abuse. You can trust me on that one. I litigate child sex abuse cases for a living.

 

[CJW]

It is unlikely that this has a direct relationship to Islam, rather some kind of local customs. There is nothing about this in the Quran, and later Islamic institutions believe that sodomy is worse than zina (adultery), since sex in adultery could be legalized by marriage, while sodomy can never be legalized. ISIS militants in Syria exterminated homosexuals, however, they also cut off the fingers of smokers.Asia has its own customs, for example, back in ancient times, the Greeks saw nothing wrong with male nudity, while the Syrians and Persians were always dressed.
In Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia, there is such a thing as "bacha bazi" - erotic dances of boys. The great military artist Vereshchagin had several paintings on this subject after his trip to Central Asia. The Mullahs condemn this, and I have heard from Afghans that during the American occupation, on the contrary, it was encouraged by the authorities

My poorly worded, too short, too quickly made point was that they have a much more questionable, hard to understand mix of cultural and religious moral standards to live by. Culture and religion to them is often one and the same. Why do they do anything that they do? I don't know. I know I don't like it and will never live there and don't want it here. I do know that a lot of it is justified by their religion.