In search of a used double for first hunt in Zimbabwe

[aminkus]

Solid experience here dealing with @aminkus in the AH classifieds!

Thanks my friend , it means a lot to me

 

[Jager Waffen74]

I would say I fired around 200 rounds through my Heym 89b before I was happy and competent with it. the first 80 or so in finding a load that regulated well. About 60 more in trying three types of red dot sight, and then zeroing the chosen one to perfection (Trijicon RMR, 1 MOA on Henneberger mount). Then about 60 or so more shooting Big Bore club competitions, 6 rounds each time.
In the field I have shot one buff bull, an impala and a wild pig. Very satisfied.

I shot 150 rounds through my Heym .500NE over a month before leaving for Tanzania...

 

[Franco]

Good morning.

I was once in the same place you are with wanting a double after shooting a friends 500NE Merkel.

In the last 25ish years I have owned 28 different doubles and shot maybe 20 other doubles. I have learned about doubles how to load for them and what to look for and what to walk away from. Mostly through the school of hard knocks. If I had saved the $ over the years I could of had a english best. But I digress. Owned a REM russian bakail, couple sabatti's, multiple Chapuis (My favorite double I own is a 9.3x74 RGEX), Hyem, Siace, a couple VC's, Sercey, Krieghoff, Simon, Rigby, couple British BPE's (500 and 577), Rizzini, I am sure there are a couple more that I just don't remember at this place in time.

Currently own 2 Chapuis, 1 Krieghoff, 1 Simon, 1 VC, and 1 Rigby.

I could write all the pro's and con's of what I learned the hard way about each one I owned, but that is a better conversation to have over a long phone call or a couple beers around a fire.

You have received alot of good advice from other's on this thread. so I will put my .02 in.

If it was my money I would buy
Classic English (would have it checked out by JJ and get his stamp of approval) Chapuis or Krieghoff or Hyem.

Damn, I know I said they are addictive, but - damn. You are to doubles what a polygamist is to marriage. You sir, exist at a level us mortals can only imagine. DAMN

 

[rookhawk]

Damn, I know I said they are addictive, but - damn. You are to doubles what a polygamist is to marriage. You sir, exist at a level us mortals can only imagine. DAMN

I too have had my share of double rifles that sort of copy AZ Dave's journey. I must say that I was lucky, I did not make very many mistakes with double rifles compared to the school of hard knocks and very painful "tuition" that I previously learned accumulating British shotguns.

I've owned:

A Jules Bury smallbore double rifle (not bad)
A sabatti 9.3x74r (I hand selected it from about 40 choices...I still didn't like it but it was my first DR)
A glorious 470NE best grade Heym that I used frequently in Africa. (sold it during a move to defray some personal debts)
A Heym small bore over/under 7x65r (Great little gun my son owned)

I presently own:

A Heym 470NE & 375HH two barrel set. Love it, even though its no match for the aesthetic of my prior Heym.

A British Lancaster 450#2 NE double rifle.

I'm probably forgetting a double rifle or two I've owned that I can't cite above. I've shot or handled scores of other double rifles from many makers, some very good, some very bad.


I have two pronged advice:

1.) If I can talk anyone out of owning a double rifle, it is my honor and duty to do so. Most first-time double rifle buyers select a low quality double, hate it, cry about it, and sell it. They could have owned an amazing magazine rifle for $8000-$12,000 and had pride of ownership, yet a similarly priced double rifle rarely satisfies. I also remind anyone considering DRs that you must handload or have someone else handload for you. To get excellent regulation you're never going to get that from a factory box of ammunition. Factory loads change and when they do, the new lot numbers may not hit the broadside of a barn in your double rifle condemning it to hand loads that are better anyway.

2.) When I cannot talk someone out of a double rifle for the reasons of #1 above, I ask them to consider these two preferences:

A.) Do you want utter reliability, the ability to shoot a variety of powders, to shoot virtually any bullet including monometal solids, and do you mind if the gun isn't the prettiest gun ever made? If yes, you want a Heym.

OR

B.) Do you want utter perfection of form and function, perfect balance, perfect curves, and the pinnacle of tradition? Are you willing to seek out hard to find bullets and powders to feed it a fussy diet of whatever traditional soft and solid will regulate in the rifle and do you understand that requires hoarding and searching to keep it fed its very prescriptive diet? If yes, you want a vintage British double rifle.

Both are faustian bargains and there is no wrong answer, just different aggravations that come from two excellent choices that can run roughly parallel in pricepoint.

I have met many people that have nice things to say about vintage Belgian doubles, and Chapuis, and Verney Carrons, so I'm not tossing shade in those directions, I just find if I'm not buying a Heym which I believe is the best modern double, I'd rather get the benefits of the ultra refined Vintage British double.

Others will disagree with my opinion on aesthetic grounds and to each their own, but I feel pretty confident I'm spouting fact more so than opinion when I say Heyms and British guns have the best quality track record for their respective owners on the average.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." ~Benjamin Franklin

 

[Rare Breed]

Damn, I know I said they are addictive, but - damn. You are to doubles what a polygamist is to marriage. You sir, exist at a level us mortals can only imagine. DAMN

Let me assure you my friend @AZDAVE knows his DRs and just about everything else related to hunting Africa!!!

 

[Rare Breed]

I too have had my share of double rifles that sort of copy AZ Dave's journey. I must say that I was lucky, I did not make very many mistakes with double rifles compared to the school of hard knocks and very painful "tuition" that I previously learned accumulating British shotguns.

I've owned:

A Jules Bury smallbore double rifle (not bad)
A sabatti 9.3x74r (I hand selected it from about 40 choices...I still didn't like it but it was my first DR)
A glorious 470NE best grade Heym that I used frequently in Africa. (sold it during a move to defray some personal debts)
A Heym small bore over/under 7x65r (Great little gun my son owned)

I presently own:

A Heym 470NE & 375HH two barrel set. Love it, even though its no match for the aesthetic of my prior Heym.

A British Lancaster 450#2 NE double rifle.

I'm probably forgetting a double rifle or two I've owned that I can't cite above. I've shot or handled scores of other double rifles from many makers, some very good, some very bad.


I have two pronged advice:

1.) If I can talk anyone out of owning a double rifle, it is my honor and duty to do so. Most first-time double rifle buyers select a low quality double, hate it, cry about it, and sell it. They could have owned an amazing magazine rifle for $8000-$12,000 and had pride of ownership, yet a similarly priced double rifle rarely satisfies. I also remind anyone considering DRs that you must handload or have someone else handload for you. To get excellent regulation you're never going to get that from a factory box of ammunition. Factory loads change and when they do, the new lot numbers may not hit the broadside of a barn in your double rifle condemning it to hand loads that are better anyway.

2.) When I cannot talk someone out of a double rifle for the reasons of #1 above, I ask them to consider these two preferences:

A.) Do you want utter reliability, the ability to shoot a variety of powders, to shoot virtually any bullet including monometal solids, and do you mind if the gun isn't the prettiest gun ever made? If yes, you want a Heym.

OR

B.) Do you want utter perfection of form and function, perfect balance, perfect curves, and the pinnacle of tradition? Are you willing to seek out hard to find bullets and powders to feed it a fussy diet of whatever traditional soft and solid will regulate in the rifle and do you understand that requires hoarding and searching to keep it fed its very prescriptive diet? If yes, you want a vintage British double rifle.

Both are faustian bargains and there is no wrong answer, just different aggravations that come from two excellent choices that can run roughly parallel in pricepoint.

I have met many people that have nice things to say about vintage Belgian doubles, and Chapuis, and Verney Carrons, so I'm not tossing shade in those directions, I just find if I'm not buying a Heym which I believe is the best modern double, I'd rather get the benefits of the ultra refined Vintage British double.

Others will disagree with my opinion on aesthetic grounds and to each their own, but I feel pretty confident I'm spouting fact more so than opinion when I say Heyms and British guns have the best quality track record for their respective owners on the average.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." ~Benjamin Franklin

As @rookhawk knows one of my finest DRs came thanks to his spotting an excellent Army Navy 500 DR built by Westley Richards and recommending it to me. It was magnificent but I discovered just as I did with my shot guns, I struggle and do not end up enjoying 28 inch or more anything to shoot barrel length. I just do better with a shorter heavier rifle. Never the guns fault to be clear, always mine.

 

[rookhawk]

As @rookhawk knows one of my finest DRs came thanks to his spotting an excellent Army Navy 500 DR built by Westley Richards and recommending it to me. It was magnificent but I discovered just as I did with my shot guns, I struggle and do not end up enjoying 28 inch or more anything to shoot barrel length. I just do better with a shorter heavier rifle. Never the guns fault to be clear, always mine.

That was a stunning rifle.

 

[csmcclain]

I too have had my share of double rifles that sort of copy AZ Dave's journey. I must say that I was lucky, I did not make very many mistakes with double rifles compared to the school of hard knocks and very painful "tuition" that I previously learned accumulating British shotguns.

I've owned:

A Jules Bury smallbore double rifle (not bad)
A sabatti 9.3x74r (I hand selected it from about 40 choices...I still didn't like it but it was my first DR)
A glorious 470NE best grade Heym that I used frequently in Africa. (sold it during a move to defray some personal debts)
A Heym small bore over/under 7x65r (Great little gun my son owned)

I presently own:

A Heym 470NE & 375HH two barrel set. Love it, even though its no match for the aesthetic of my prior Heym.

A British Lancaster 450#2 NE double rifle.

I'm probably forgetting a double rifle or two I've owned that I can't cite above. I've shot or handled scores of other double rifles from many makers, some very good, some very bad.


I have two pronged advice:

1.) If I can talk anyone out of owning a double rifle, it is my honor and duty to do so. Most first-time double rifle buyers select a low quality double, hate it, cry about it, and sell it. They could have owned an amazing magazine rifle for $8000-$12,000 and had pride of ownership, yet a similarly priced double rifle rarely satisfies. I also remind anyone considering DRs that you must handload or have someone else handload for you. To get excellent regulation you're never going to get that from a factory box of ammunition. Factory loads change and when they do, the new lot numbers may not hit the broadside of a barn in your double rifle condemning it to hand loads that are better anyway.

2.) When I cannot talk someone out of a double rifle for the reasons of #1 above, I ask them to consider these two preferences:

A.) Do you want utter reliability, the ability to shoot a variety of powders, to shoot virtually any bullet including monometal solids, and do you mind if the gun isn't the prettiest gun ever made? If yes, you want a Heym.

OR

B.) Do you want utter perfection of form and function, perfect balance, perfect curves, and the pinnacle of tradition? Are you willing to seek out hard to find bullets and powders to feed it a fussy diet of whatever traditional soft and solid will regulate in the rifle and do you understand that requires hoarding and searching to keep it fed its very prescriptive diet? If yes, you want a vintage British double rifle.

Both are faustian bargains and there is no wrong answer, just different aggravations that come from two excellent choices that can run roughly parallel in pricepoint.

I have met many people that have nice things to say about vintage Belgian doubles, and Chapuis, and Verney Carrons, so I'm not tossing shade in those directions, I just find if I'm not buying a Heym which I believe is the best modern double, I'd rather get the benefits of the ultra refined Vintage British double.

Others will disagree with my opinion on aesthetic grounds and to each their own, but I feel pretty confident I'm spouting fact more so than opinion when I say Heyms and British guns have the best quality track record for their respective owners on the average.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." ~Benjamin Franklin

You have officially talked me out of owning one. Bolt gun it is! I did recently purchase one of the Heym combos, though - looking forward to playing with that some.

 

[BeeMaa]

You have officially talked me out of owning one. Bolt gun it is! I did recently purchase one of the Heym combos, though - looking forward to playing with that some.

Excellent! Look what I found for you...
GI Dakota African Traveler 375H&H/458LOTT

@rookhawk might have something to say about this one as well.

 

[Franco]

Let me assure you my friend @AZDAVE knows his DRs and just about everything else related to hunting Africa!!!

There is no doubt from me.

 

[Franco]

I too have had my share of double rifles that sort of copy AZ Dave's journey. I must say that I was lucky, I did not make very many mistakes with double rifles compared to the school of hard knocks and very painful "tuition" that I previously learned accumulating British shotguns.

I've owned:

A Jules Bury smallbore double rifle (not bad)
A sabatti 9.3x74r (I hand selected it from about 40 choices...I still didn't like it but it was my first DR)
A glorious 470NE best grade Heym that I used frequently in Africa. (sold it during a move to defray some personal debts)
A Heym small bore over/under 7x65r (Great little gun my son owned)

I presently own:

A Heym 470NE & 375HH two barrel set. Love it, even though its no match for the aesthetic of my prior Heym.

A British Lancaster 450#2 NE double rifle.

I'm probably forgetting a double rifle or two I've owned that I can't cite above. I've shot or handled scores of other double rifles from many makers, some very good, some very bad.


I have two pronged advice:

1.) If I can talk anyone out of owning a double rifle, it is my honor and duty to do so. Most first-time double rifle buyers select a low quality double, hate it, cry about it, and sell it. They could have owned an amazing magazine rifle for $8000-$12,000 and had pride of ownership, yet a similarly priced double rifle rarely satisfies. I also remind anyone considering DRs that you must handload or have someone else handload for you. To get excellent regulation you're never going to get that from a factory box of ammunition. Factory loads change and when they do, the new lot numbers may not hit the broadside of a barn in your double rifle condemning it to hand loads that are better anyway.

2.) When I cannot talk someone out of a double rifle for the reasons of #1 above, I ask them to consider these two preferences:

A.) Do you want utter reliability, the ability to shoot a variety of powders, to shoot virtually any bullet including monometal solids, and do you mind if the gun isn't the prettiest gun ever made? If yes, you want a Heym.

OR

B.) Do you want utter perfection of form and function, perfect balance, perfect curves, and the pinnacle of tradition? Are you willing to seek out hard to find bullets and powders to feed it a fussy diet of whatever traditional soft and solid will regulate in the rifle and do you understand that requires hoarding and searching to keep it fed its very prescriptive diet? If yes, you want a vintage British double rifle.

Both are faustian bargains and there is no wrong answer, just different aggravations that come from two excellent choices that can run roughly parallel in pricepoint.

I have met many people that have nice things to say about vintage Belgian doubles, and Chapuis, and Verney Carrons, so I'm not tossing shade in those directions, I just find if I'm not buying a Heym which I believe is the best modern double, I'd rather get the benefits of the ultra refined Vintage British double.

Others will disagree with my opinion on aesthetic grounds and to each their own, but I feel pretty confident I'm spouting fact more so than opinion when I say Heyms and British guns have the best quality track record for their respective owners on the average.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." ~Benjamin Franklin

As you know, my plan for my first safari in 2018 was: 1. Buy the rifles, 2. go to FTW, 3. Go on safari.

A broken leg took #2 out of the lineup, and I did manage #3 as the last hunt of the season. I don't know that I have conveyed just how lucky I was to have had Chris Sells as my first point of contact to guide me in the right direction. I was dead-set on buying a double and he convinced me Heym was the way to go.

I can see now there were so many ways I could have gone wrong.

 

[rookhawk]

Excellent! Look what I found for you...
GI Dakota African Traveler 375H&H/458LOTT

@rookhawk might have something to say about this one as well.

That rifle is owned by an AH member and it is also listed in the classifieds.

 

[Hatchetjack]

A friend of mine was elephant hunting 2 years ago and one of the other hunters in camp had a heym 89b 470 and it locked up completely. Had to take it to a gunsmith in SA to have it worked on to get the bullet out . I heard a drill had to be used

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

A friend of mine was elephant hunting 2 years ago and one of the other hunters in camp had a heym 89b 470 and it locked up completely. Had to take it to a gunsmith in SA to have it worked on to get the bullet out . I heard a drill had to be used

Hmmm, I’ve heard a lot of things but often my mind brain takes me back to Edger Allen Poe's writing of a popular adage of the early 1800’s, “Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see.”

While it may have happened much as you heard it, the probability of a Heym 89B action locking up so bad a gunsmith had to use a drill to open it is, well please refer to the above listed adage.

Having loaded my own ammunition for 50 years, I have occasionally had to use a rubber mallet to open a bolt during load development. Also, on SxS shotguns, I’ve had to use my thigh as a pivot point to open an action or two. The preceding abuses of long guns were totally my fault.

I have however NEVER locked up an action due to a bullet, a tip, a point, or projectile. Never. I’ve had a squib load where the bullet was stuck halfway down the barrel of a 1911 pistol. That’s what a primer without powder will do! It should not have happened but loading 4 grains of Bullseye powder in a .45 ACP cartridge on a progressive press, well shxt happens very occasionally. Competitive pistol shooters know that if the action doesn’t cycle to check for the results of a squib load.

Now, if by improperly using the term bullet for cartridge, then improperly loaded cartridges can lock up an action. But the shooter would have had to force the action closed. For that, the old “Break open the gun against the thigh”, trick is called for.

So maybe a Heym 89B locked up so hard that a drill had to be used to open the action. Perhaps a handful of sand somehow got between the barrel and action and it was closed hard on that. Or a cartridge loaded so hot that the brass when fires was forced into the firing pin hole on the standing breach. Whatever the case, that was not the fault of the rifle. More likely it was operator error being the cause.

Here is what a Heym will do. This is my 88B in .458 Winchester Magnum, made in 1986 can still do. I’ve been her caretaker for the past four years and put 600 full power loads through her. I do not know how many times the late original caretaker shot her but over 35 years, perhaps 500 to 1000. The caretaker's son provided that he accompanied his father hunting all over sub-Saharan Africa. He stated his father took several elephant, numerous buffalo, a couple lions, and a rhino with this Heym, For me, she is like a Timex watch, takes a licking and keeps on ticking. Further, she has never ever even come close to being hard to open.

50 yard groups shot from standing bench. Trijicon SRO with 1 MOA dot for the sight. Aim small, miss small...

Low right group less than 1.5". Moved sight up and to the right.

Close up of two Right & Left barrel groups

Another sight adjustment and a clean target results in 1.25" groups at 50 yards.
Considering the center to center of the bores is .86" the divergence from the center is .39". Let's call it 4/10 of an inch, or 10mm for my foreign friends. That's pretty close to parallel! In theory, this should be less than a 2" group at 100 yards. I've never shot her that well but I have shot many 4-shot 100 yard groups that I can cover with my fist.

My Trusty Heym on the standing bench. The bench is a surveyor tripod and a MTM standing bench top. The surveyor tripod is much more steady than the flimsy metal tripod that came with the top.

Heym on bench close up

 

[Altitude sickness]

Shooting several brands of doubles at Marks. The Heym separated itself from the others. I really appreciated the ergonomics.

As shown Mark can wring the most out of a double. Mark is very humble about his shooting. His rest pictured is the most solid standing rest I have used. But it’s still a standing rest that has movement. And Mark got Bench type groups demonstrating his shooting.

 

[VertigoBE]

Be forewarned, they are addictive - I have a Heym 89B 450/400, I pick up my 89B 500NE tomorrow.

And pics are expected of your .500NE!

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Shooting several brands of doubles at Marks. The Heym separated itself from the others. I really appreciated the ergonomics.

As shown Mark can wring the most out of a double. Mark is very humble about his shooting. His rest pictured is the most solid standing rest I have used. But it’s still a standing rest that has movement. And Mark got Bench type groups demonstrating his shooting.

Kind words indeed. Thank you!

Often, one doesn't reach their goal by accident... "A short pencil makes for a long memory..."

 

[Franco]

Mark,

Thank you for posting your response to the locked-up Heym. I certainly suspected operator error, but lack the knowledge and experience to express it as well as you.

 

[Philip Glass]

And to remember the forces required to push the top safety on A krieghoff. It isn’t a safety, it actually cocks the mainsprings. Pros: super safe. Cons: hard to operate. Net result: diminished value which means a bargain used if you like it, but disappointing to some that purchase and find out they later hate the feature.

It is no different than leaning to use double triggers. Practice, practice, practice.

 

[PARA45]

Kind words indeed. Thank you!

Often, one doesn't reach their goal by accident... "A short pencil makes for a long memory..."
View attachment 705270

This right here shows me someone who shot Service High Power Rifle or Service Pistol shooting!