What's Going On With Cheap Hunts?

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by Hank2211, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. Royal27

    Royal27 AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Out of state license is one thing. Paying for the guide or right to hunt is another.

    If I want to hunt private land in Colorado I don't pay more because I'm not from there (although I do for the license). Can you imagine the uproar? "Yes, I know I told you $1000, but I didn't realize you were from Utah, so now it is $2000."

    My guess is the truth is somewhere in the middle on this one. I bet that if I wanted a cull hunt in SA and got my own lodging and paid my own PH (to make it legal) and just wanted to hunt that I'd pay more in "kill fees" than a resident would from the same land owner.

    If I'd even be allowed to hunt in that manner.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
    ActionBob and siml like this.

  2. sierraone

    sierraone AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Royal, you are correct about private land. But if Simon hunts elk or mule deer on public land which I have, his cost is the same as mine except for transportation to get there. When you get into guides and lodges and renting horses which I never have, I would think his cost would still be the same as mine under the same conditions. I only pay more for the license and tags than the guy from Colorado.
     

  3. Royal27

    Royal27 AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Exactly - thought you were saying opposite and that international hunter and SA hunter paid the same rate to hunt. My bad.
     
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  4. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    What I was getting at in my post is regarding what the local SA hunter is actually paying for in comparison to the foreign client. If as Simon is saying that average local is only coming in for meat, i.e. a cull hunt, that's one reason it would be cheaper for that guy. But if the guy is also essentially outfitting himself (vechicle, food, etc.), than there's really no comparison is there? Especially if it is a cull hunt and the local guy is paying to do the work the outfitter would otherwise have to do.
     
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  5. npm352

    npm352 AH Enthusiast

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    People can charge whatever they want. Something is worth what someone else is willing to pay. SA plains game is THE best value in international hunting.
     

  6. HeinrichH

    HeinrichH AH Enthusiast

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    @ActionBob
    Seems you have a fixed opinion on what point you are trying to make. So no need to explain the APNR in better words, different strokes for different okes. You like the northern countries more, thats all good.

    However keep in mind, we live here, hunt here, grew up here, we've seen it all, and done it all, and boy for a sense of adventure, thats what we grew up doing, in these wild places. If there's anyone who can tell you where the truly amazing place, hunts and experiences are, its us. I sometimes get the feeling that guys who have been here a few times think they know more. No offense intended by this, but I am sure you've experienced it as well before. And sometimes all info conveyed is not correct, but just stories an not so honorable outfitter will tell can degrade what is so special for the rest of us.

    All this being said, my 2 ultimate favorites are the APNR in SA, and the Luangwa Valley in Zambia.
     

  7. Bos en Dal Safaris

    Bos en Dal Safaris SPONSOR Since 2014 AH Elite

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    Most SA hunters are in it for the meat to fill the freezer and get the biltong supply up. Yes you do get the trophy hunters as well but should they shoot a trophy animal they pay the premium price everyone else is paying.
    The reason it is more affordable is because of the daily fees, the outfitter don't need to prepare all meals, supply the drinks and do the laundry. All of this is for their own account,they don't need a ph to guide them. You give them a tacker and of they go.
    As @Traditional Mozambique Safaris said they are a tool in helping manage the numbers of the game on the property as one cannot just hunt trophy animals.

    I totally agree and hopefully our industry will thrive for many years to come
     
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  8. Hunting Sailor

    Hunting Sailor SILVER SUPPORTER AH Enthusiast

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    A lot of different sub-subjects around the Cheap Hunt subject...

    Research and do the homework for what you would like to hunt.
    A big game hunt in a great area will cost some money, if it is out of budget, save up, or hunt something else, some place else, but keep dreaming about the dream hunt.

    You can hunt, or shall I say shoot, Lechwe in the Eastern Cape, I see them quite often on an open field underneath the irrigation pivot 20 minutes drive from where I live. You can also hunt Oryx in Texas.
    Is that what you want to do? May be cheeper that way, but maybe nicer to do it in Botswana and Kalahari. Are you after the kill, the inches or the experience of the hunt and of Africa?

    Comparing the SA biltong hunts with a full out safari is like apples and pears. Examples have been given above, so I won't go on about that.

    If anyone is on a trophy hunt safari, but would like to add non trophy animals, I can imagine that many outfitters and safari operators would make that happen for non trophy prices, or even shooting one for the pot.
    That will however take away time from the trophy hunting part of the safari.

    We see some offers for cull hunts from the AH sponsors if that is what anyone would like.

    I've been on biltong hunts where I met the landowner before the hunt and at the end of the hunt to settle the bill and with all preparations and support handled by us, the hunting group of two. Obviously not very expensive to do that, but a lot of work outside the hunt.

    I've also had trophy hunts, (shirt ironed in the closet-kind of accommodation) where anything and everything was handled by the outfitter, which obviously cost a lot more. No discount was ever given due to my SA residency.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is to use the quote, "Only rich people can go on cheap safaris, as they would have to return".


    //Gus
     
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  9. Game 4 Africa Safaris

    Game 4 Africa Safaris SPONSOR Since 2014 AH Enthusiast

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    Hi Guys

    Generally I stay out of the talk on the forum as i don’t have the time to get onto the site every day; however i did click on this thread and thought I should put my thoughts out there on the discussion.

    Each outfitter is different and again this is solely from my family’s perspective. Our family has been in the Hunting and meat industry for 30 years, Other Hunting Outfitters with our assistance used our land to hunt on and clients left with magnificent Trophies of which we got paid peanuts and they claimed all the glory of a happy client and a good profit. This just didn’t work for my brother and I.

    Now , our business model: We have the land and many species. We already have the bulk fixed Costs whether we get 1 client or 100, we need clients to keep our outfit running and keep our staff paid and happy. We have 7 permanent Staff on our land. The expense is there so we need to hunt.

    An easy way out will be to sell the land and invest the money and go to the beach and live like a king, but no we have a love for nature, animals and hunting. We do most of the PH work.

    So coming to cheaper hunts, and I will refer to the no day fees special which I put on AH. The reason I put this on is because we have older animals which need to be hunted, the rand dollar allows us to get a good price for our animals. Ill rather make less profit by the not charging day fees on a few hunts than animals dying in a drought, now that brings me to my next point, OLD ANIMALS need to be hunted. Below are 2 kudu of +- 47inches which i found just by walking on the last safari 2 weeks ago. How many others died? So that’s $1800 gone.Those are 2 very nice EC kudu Bulls and would have made most hunters very happy. Same goes for nyala, we have a good amount of big nyala which need to be hunted, why not discount some day fees? And then a hunter can come hunt a beautiful animal and have a great experience for a few hundred $ less than a well known Outfitter. Another concept is the Venison meat, My brother and I bought a meat business/butchery from my father and we run our meat business in Grahamstown. This directly influences our Outfitting business as the meat has a good value and can be sold to the public. We keep enough for our staff and lodge and the rest gets utilized, from tripe, bones, liver and lungs for the poor to the fillet and sirloin for higher income earners.

    Another point i must add is that there is no Agents involved and commission, dealing directly with our Outfit. No middle man will always be cheaper.

    This also allows a hunter who is in the lower income working class group to experience Africa with his son or wife, had a father and son hunt in October 2016, still waiting for the hunt report but the Dad cried when he shot his first kudu and said he has been saving for 35 years to come to Africa with his son. Satisfying a client with Moments like that sometimes is more important in life than making a few extra $$$.

    For us it’s the lifestyle of being a PH and a big passion for nature and being outdoors, its not only business and making a HUGE profit.

    So ill end off by saying do your homework on all hunts, cheaper and more expensive hunts. Always make sure to Contact some references and ask for a experienced PH.
    Regards
    Wik Coetzee
    20170128_094204.jpg IMG-20170130-WA0023.jpg
     

  10. ActionBob

    ActionBob AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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  11. ActionBob

    ActionBob AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    @HeinrichH
    I hope to make this my last post on the points we have gone back and forth on.

    You obviously love your area, and especially the APNR you hunt and wish to promote. I get that, although I assume you can also promote your area through an ad and/or a hunt offer.

    I do not wish to detract from your area. But this thread is not about that.

    When it comes to hunters/clients pointing out what type of areas they like to hunt and why.... Is it really appropriate for an outfitter to attempt to say that is wrong?

    I understand you and many others on this site have lived and hunted Africa all your life... And I and other foreign hunters only get to experience a little piece of Africa for a small period of time... So yes, you know your areas much better...... But if my idea of the best of the remaining Real Wild Africa is one that is out farther away from civilization than your idea. Or what you are marketing.. I would respectfully claim I am correct... Because I am the client, spending my money. I want what I want, when I want it, where I want it, because that is what I want and am willing to spend my time and money to get it. Again, not because I know much, but because someone is offering something that is in my mind what I am looking for... That is how I perceive that I am getting value. And that goes back to what this thread is about.
     
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  12. rinehart0050

    rinehart0050 GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    @Game 4 Africa Safaris well said. Each place has a different business model, appealing to different hunters, with different profit margins. That's the beauty of a market economy. Each outfitter needs to find their niche and compete within that niche.
     
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  13. Ragman

    Ragman AH Elite

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    One of my favourite quotes is "There is a difference between valuable and expensive". After reading hunting report after hunting report on here from satisfied hunters, I feel there are numerous RSA outfitters on here that provide a great hunting experience for a good value. The hunts are for beautiful animals in beautiful places which to me is valuable. Some of the other countries no doubt provide an incredible experience. But they are expensive and beyond my reach. I'll take value over expensive thanks to outfitters like @Game 4 Africa Safaris. And thank them for the experience.
     

  14. Neale

    Neale AH Enthusiast

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    Wik, as others have acknowledged, "well said and with passion"
     

  15. tap

    tap AH Enthusiast

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    all most of this comes down to is greed. some people like having extra cash to play with. some dont need money and unless they make a heck of a profit they refuse to do business and then theres people like myself who are content with making just enough to put a roof over their heads and food on the table.

    ive hunted africa for the last 15 years. ive never paid more than $18k for a leopard and ive shot the biggest leopard around. ive shot 60" kudu for $1500 and ive shot 90lb elephants for $90,000.

    i usually go for the cheapers hunts and rarely do i have ANY bad experiences.

    once you find a ph who has a passion for hunting whomis fine clearing only $1500 per week (meat sales included) then u can hunt the best places and stay in the best lodges for nothing.

    u sa ph's know what im talking about. if your a local then your lodge runs $120/night. if your foreign it runs $300/night. a good ph passes that savings along to his clients and doesnt keep the profit. there are many other tricks to this and you guys know them all too well. you guys just arent making the killing you once were and some of you are having a hard time being ok with just breaking even.

    well i am in the oil business and i am working at a loss. im out of cash and living month to month. when that happens im not about to waste money. so if i do hunt u can bet i will make sure my safari quote is straight in line with my life style. its just one giant vicious circle.
     
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  16. Philip Glass

    Philip Glass AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    Oil price my friend! Oil price. Up until 2014 everyone was booked up. Over 2 years of terribly depressed oil prices the economy in my state of Texas is not so good. Now things are looking better but it will take time for recovery for people's discretionary spending. I wish there was a way to quantify the Safaris in number and $ but that's not likely.
    Just my thoughts from my perspective.
    Regards,
    Philip
     

  17. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    I'm wondering how you define "clearing" $1500 / week. Are you defining this profit fairly narrowly, in simply what the outfitter charges you and then taking out cost for food/gas/other employee salaries? Or more broadly in taking into account maintenance of the buildings, water holes, fences if they're present, vehicles and whatever else I may not even have thought of?
     

  18. tap

    tap AH Enthusiast

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    clearing $1500 profit is pretty freaking easy. if ur a big operation over head is more and after all bills are paid u profit $1500. however if you have a big property and u dont turn much volume then u have to charge more per client. in that case your clients pay for your smaller business.

    free lance guys can get better rates. they can go to the guys who have high end operations with little running costs and get things cheaper.


    let me try to put it to you in my business terms.

    i can get u an oil completions rig for $200/hr. my rig was about $1.1 million and only requires about $1000/month upkeep. my competitors have 40 year old rigs and have $15,000 per month in maintenance costs and usually much more. so basically i can work cheaper because quite frankly i have a smarter operation. if you have to complain about fence upkeep when your hands are only paid $2/day then none of us want to hear about it. my hands get $200-$600 per day. truly that on for size.


    i hear so many africans complain about their running cost but fail to mention wages are only $2/day. some people just cant handle smaller profits and throw so much out there to justify higher prices. when business gets bad enough that your forced to lower prices just to live i think we will all find the spaces for it. most of the space any of us need is simply in our minds.
     

  19. tap

    tap AH Enthusiast

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    phillip. i live in nm. i have reverse units bop's and completion/production rigs.

    the boom was so big and the tool up among competitors was so massive that the glut of equipment will most likely be arojnd for years. i dont see the service companies benefiting much in the next 5-10 years. ive been at break even and worse for so long that im out of cash and not sure how much longer i can float. ive decided to do one last trip. this may be my last hoorah and im gonna throw everything i have at it. i will show my wife a good time and disapear back to the 9-5 life if thats where the lord is taking me. ive already started applying for consulting and engineering jobs.
     

  20. tap

    tap AH Enthusiast

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    uhhh let me rephrase that. in the oil fields 9-5 does not exist. im planning on 14-24 hr days and 2 weeks on 1 day off.

    its the life i knew before and its the life i will go back to
     

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