The Cartridge Which Is Loved By Some, Loathed By Many, But Known By All

Kawshik Rahman

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As I wrote..yes I shot elephant with the .458 500 grain solid by Woodleigh..these bullets have very thick steel envelopes..

No, I never used homogeneous brass bullets...for the obvious difficulty with lack of powder space..
However, PMP, the South african cartridge Company load .458 ammo With a 475 grain brass bullet...I have no idea how it performs...perhaps Lvw knows..?
Pondoro
Thanl you so much for your thorough explanation. As l understand it then :
While the modern homogeneous metal bullet has largely replaced the metal envelope bullet in most calibres , the .458 Winchester magnum calibre is one of the few which still benefits from the metal envelope bullet .
 

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Federal do load brass bullets for the .458Win..

5607480_01__243_and_458_winchester_magnum_640.w610.h610.fill.jpg
 

IvW

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Federal do load brass bullets for the .458Win..

View attachment 314384

That is not a solid brass bullet but rather a Bonded bullet. Core is bonded to a thick bronze jacket.

And even though they use specially formulated powder and Gold Medal primers the poor thing only achieves 1950 Fps @ the muzzle.......

Not my idea of the right bullet or speed for elephant, many many better options....
 

Kawshik Rahman

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You read but do not take in the facts of what is stated.

Semi automatics are illegal for use in Botswana which is only a small part of Africa. Nowhere is it stated that they are illegal in all of Africa.

PS: Yes but rarely, I do for partridge/francolin over dogs as chokes are of no consequence is this situation and I then refrain from taking shots past my limit
IvW
I am unfamiliar with the method south African Francolin birds are hunted with dogs . Could you elaborate a little ?
As the shot-gun you mention has no choke , l would assume that you only take shots within ten metres or so ? And do you typically use number 7 or number 6 cartridges for these birds ? Do the dogs flush the birds towards you like a driven grouse shooting in England ?
In my country , l typically shoot quail birds recently with my 12 bore Westley Richards which has a quarter choke and a half choke in each barrel , respectively. And l use number 6 ( Game Bore )
 

IvW

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Yes close range only. Nr.6 shot. Crested francolin I prefer nr.7 as they are small.They normally flush straight away or either left or right, never towards you as the dog is most often between you and the covey.
 

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I've never quite understood the people that say they have trouble getting over 2000 fps from a 500 grain bullet in the 458 WM. I've owned several rifles in this caliber, and have never had any trouble at all reaching 2100 fps, and that's a load that shows no signs of high pressure whatsoever. However, if someone made a 480 gr bullet with the crimp groove in the proper location, there would be absolutely no problem at all getting 2150 or better. The original 450 Nitro Express used a 480 gr bullet at an advertised 2150 fps (very doubtful they were over 2000 fps in reality), and that caliber is the original caliber that all the other stopping rifles of the day were trying to duplicate. I know there are better choices, but most people have a recoil threshold much lower than some of the bigger 45 and 50 caliber rifles, such as 450 Rigby and 500 Jeffrey. So, it would seem to me that if you own a 458 WM, can shoot it well, and are able to load your own ammo, why not go shoot something with it?
 

Kawshik Rahman

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I've never quite understood the people that say they have trouble getting over 2000 fps from a 500 grain bullet in the 458 WM. I've owned several rifles in this caliber, and have never had any trouble at all reaching 2100 fps, and that's a load that shows no signs of high pressure whatsoever. However, if someone made a 480 gr bullet with the crimp groove in the proper location, there would be absolutely no problem at all getting 2150 or better. The original 450 Nitro Express used a 480 gr bullet at an advertised 2150 fps (very doubtful they were over 2000 fps in reality), and that caliber is the original caliber that all the other stopping rifles of the day were trying to duplicate. I know there are better choices, but most people have a recoil threshold much lower than some of the bigger 45 and 50 caliber rifles, such as 450 Rigby and 500 Jeffrey. So, it would seem to me that if you own a 458 WM, can shoot it well, and are able to load your own ammo, why not go shoot something with it?
Toby458
Perhaps it may interest you that when l compiled my survey of all the forum members , you were actually among the ten whom l counted as being an advocate for this cartridge. Indeed , your points are valid and well taken. I did have a good number of clients who demonstrated a high level of proficiency with this cartridge . They used it successfully on 500 pound Royal Bengal tigers and 2000 pound male Gaur bison with ease .
 

TOBY458

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Toby458
Perhaps it may interest you that when l compiled my survey of all the forum members , you were actually among the ten whom l counted as being an advocate for this cartridge. Indeed , your points are valid and well taken. I did have a good number of clients who demonstrated a high level of proficiency with this cartridge . They used it successfully on 500 pound Royal Bengal tigers and 2000 pound male Gaur bison with ease .
I would be most interested to hear from any modern day hunters that have had issues with the 458 WM under real world conditions, with modern ammo. Not stories from 50 years ago, with old technology bullets and powders. It's my understanding that the problems that some hunters had with this round back in the old days were more of a bullet problem, which could affect any cartridge. I DARE anyone to load a 458 WM with modern powder and bullets, and go show me it won't work reliably on any Cape Buffalo that walks.
Thanks so much for your insight into the long gone days of India hunting. I love your articles!
 

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I’m of a similar mind set as you Toby. I’ve played with a number of powders and bullets in my .458 WM and have found AA2230 and Reloader 10x to be stellar performers.
I have a custom DWM Mauser with a 20” barrel topped with a ghost ring rear and bead front sights and a Mannlicher stock, built and owned by the late? (not sure if he is still with us), great Jerry Kuhnhausen. I picked it up for $600 from his estate sale along with 4 other firearms, including a ZKK 602 in .375 H&H and an 1886 12 ga underlever SxS.
Even with only 20 inches of barrel I have been able to get 2240 fps with a 500 gr Woodleigh and AA2230. Definitely a max load, but I wanted to see what velocity could be achieved with this powder/bullet combination and here is where I think some folks go wrong. Trying to hot rod the load trying to get too much out of it. This is a pretty heavily compressed load with a ball powder and it is most definitely temperature sensitive. Not a good recipe for DG where temps may be... warm :) However, back this off a few grains and it is pretty mild, no longer compressed and produces a respectable 2100 fps. I’ve purposely done some shooting with my load in temps approaching 100 degrees and had no visible increase in pressure signs and only a slight increase in velocity. Even letting a round bake in the chamber with the rifle sitting in the sun has not produced excessive pressure with this load. I can only conclude that this would be Africa-safe.
Even so, I prefer the RL-10x in my rifle. I have loaded it with the 500 gr Woodleighs as well as 450 gr CEB Brass Solids. I load 69.5 gr of RL-10x and the 450 gr CEB which yields 2300 fps and consistently under 20 fps Standard Deviation and shoots better than I can with open sights. This by no means a maximum load.
Based on reports I’ve heard about Woodleighs recently I’ll probably go back to the drawing board and work up a load for 500 gr A-Frames. Pretty sure 2100 fps will be very achievable at a well below max load of 10x.
I believe the folks who have had bad experiences with the .458 WM. I would not place my trust in factory loads. I might also treat some folks hand loads with some skepticism :) With a moderate load of the right powder pushing a 500 gr A-Frame at 2100 fps I think the .458 WM is a perfectly acceptable choice for Cape Buffalo. First choice or best choice? No. I think I would prefer my .416 Rigby, but that doesn’t mean the Win Mag isn’t up to the task.
By the same token I think a 450 CEB Solid at 2300 fps should be acceptable for a brain shot on all but the biggest bull elephant. Still, I think I would prefer a 400 gr CEB Solid at 2450 fps from the Rigby.
Guess we just need to go shoot a bunch of buff and ele with the old .458’s and report back on the results ;):D Pretty sure @Bullthrower338 will join in. He’s got like 6 of the damn things! :ROFLMAO: Of course he believes in having a six pack of everything...
 

IvW

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I've never quite understood the people that say they have trouble getting over 2000 fps from a 500 grain bullet in the 458 WM. I've owned several rifles in this caliber, and have never had any trouble at all reaching 2100 fps, and that's a load that shows no signs of high pressure whatsoever. However, if someone made a 480 gr bullet with the crimp groove in the proper location, there would be absolutely no problem at all getting 2150 or better. The original 450 Nitro Express used a 480 gr bullet at an advertised 2150 fps (very doubtful they were over 2000 fps in reality), and that caliber is the original caliber that all the other stopping rifles of the day were trying to duplicate. I know there are better choices, but most people have a recoil threshold much lower than some of the bigger 45 and 50 caliber rifles, such as 450 Rigby and 500 Jeffrey. So, it would seem to me that if you own a 458 WM, can shoot it well, and are able to load your own ammo, why not go shoot something with it?

1950 Fps as quoted by Federal for this cartridge....also baffles my mind if it was easy to increase it by 200 Fps without issues....
 

Brian Rothhammer

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You are right, as well as Kurpfalzjager, it was the M1910 Mannlicher-Schoenauer.

What did you hunt with this rifle/cartridge? DG?!


HWL


They work on leopard:

Johnny's cat - my Grand-dad at center with his (my) M1910 Mannlicher Schoenauer.

Detail - MS Model 1910 rifles and carbines were chambered for 9.5X57, known to the Brits as .375 Nitro Express Rimless or .375 RNE.

The Mannlicher Schoenauer proprietary cartridges, each corresponding to a specific model of MS. M1903 = 6.5X54, M1905 = 9X56, M1908 = 8X56, M1910 = 9.5X57:



Eley drawing of .375 RNE:
 

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Foxi

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it looks like Jim Corbett at the right,I'm wrong ?
A little funny hairstyle,but otherwise a similarity is already given.
 
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Brian Rothhammer

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it looks like Jim Corbett at the right,I'm wrong ?
A little funny hairstyle,but otherwise a similarity is already given.


Somewhat close, but no cigar, I'd say.
Here's Grand Dad's guide:


These are Corbett:






The proximity of time and place render it possible, however. Grand Dad, John F. Easton, was a buyer of raw rubber for Goodyear and oversaw operations at Colombo, Ceylon. As a top ranking executive of a foreign concern in the British Colonies, he did hobnob with the upper crust. He was also rather adventurous , athletic, and cocky. He purchased the MS 'second hand' circa 1930 - 32 and I do remember him telling that when he went on that hunt the local villagers were very enthusiastic and eager to lead the party to areas where troublesome cats were.
 

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ryan80

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Hoss Delgado
Young man , you should be ashamed of yourself . In what part of my accounts did you read me saying that l thought it was a good idea ?
What will you do next ? Go after a Royal Bengal tiger with a shot-gun and SG cartridges ? What will Fernando say ? That l am influencing his grand son in a negative manner .
End this foolishness. Use German slug type projectiles or your beautiful .405 calibre under lever rifle or your .350 Rigby magnum bolt operation rifle or your .375 Holland and Holland magnum bolt operation rifle for ethical and clean killing .

Lets us all remember that even the mighty Odysseus was wounded by a wild boar. It worked out well for him in the end, as it helped him to be recognized when he finally returned home....HOWEVER, lets remember what else this mythical hero went through. Homer's contemporary listeners would have thought it perfectly reasonable that a man who had fought and survived the Trojan war, had fought giants and cyclops, holds all the winds in a bag, is loved by 2 witch-goddesses, slaughters dozens of men and performs many other heroic acts is still wounded by a wild boar.
 

ryan80

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Could it perhaps be same gun being sold every week, as each new owner only fires a round or two before passing it on? :D:D

Both Midway and Cheaper than Dirt, both of whom I have ordered other items from before here in the states, offer this ammo for about $135 per box of 20. Not cheap by any means, but it can be had.
 

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Read both of Kevin Robertson's books, covering this very topic! I handload extensively and previously tried many loads w/ the 458 and 500 gr bullets-most were between 2,030-2,090 fps. At that time, there was a shortage of the shortest, Woodleigh bullets, which IMO, are the best choice considering this short magnum case. My son did drop a buffalo in its tracks at 20 paces using a 500 gr factory Fusion SP. The problem is that the necessary solid bullets are less dense, and thus even longer than the SPs, so velocity suffers tremendously with them, in this case. My eventual solution: Trade "up" to .416 Chatfield-Taylor (same case necked down to .416, same 2,450 fps as both the Rem (10 gr more powder) and Rigby (20 gr more powder.) Super accurate, pleasure to shoot, and most importantly-Deadly! IF you hunt with a .458-get close, use heavy handloads w/ short bullets, and make that 1st shot count!!! Off the top of my head, I think 66 gr of Western TAC powder and a CCI 250 primer produced the near-2,100 velocities. Even more powder could be utilized with the shorter Woodleighs.
 

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Read both of Kevin Robertson's books, covering this very topic! I handload extensively and previously tried many loads w/ the 458 and 500 gr bullets-most were between 2,030-2,090 fps. At that time, there was a shortage of the shortest, Woodleigh bullets, which IMO, are the best choice considering this short magnum case. My son did drop a buffalo in its tracks at 20 paces using a 500 gr factory Fusion SP. The problem is that the necessary solid bullets are less dense, and thus even longer than the SPs, so velocity suffers tremendously with them, in this case. My eventual solution: Trade "up" to .416 Chatfield-Taylor (same case necked down to .416, same 2,450 fps as both the Rem (10 gr more powder) and Rigby (20 gr more powder.) Super accurate, pleasure to shoot, and most importantly-Deadly! IF you hunt with a .458-get close, use heavy handloads w/ short bullets, and make that 1st shot count!!! Off the top of my head, I think 66 gr of Western TAC powder and a CCI 250 primer produced the near-2,100 velocities. Even more powder could be utilized with the shorter Woodleighs.

Read up on "the trampoline effect." That might get you thinking about shot placement limitations with this cartridge as well.
 
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kurpfalzjäger

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In the meantime and after a long discussion we have more or less rehabilitated the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum. Loaded with 480gr bullets , it seems to perform reasonably well.
 

Felipe

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Felipe
Espagnol Spainard ?
Gracias por su amable comprensión. Tuve muchos clientes que vinieron a la India con el calibre .458 y obtuve buenos resultados
Saludos

Sgt. Kawshik Rahman ( Retd )

Sí, español. Sus escritos me encantan
 
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