The Cartridge Which Is Loved By Some, Loathed By Many, But Known By All

Kawshik Rahman

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Lea “Cambaco I y Ii, de Pardal. Son preciosos y se extiende en el .458 como excelente calibre para elefantes. Saludos
Felipe
Espagnol Spainard ?
Gracias por su amable comprensión. Tuve muchos clientes que vinieron a la India con el calibre .458 y obtuve buenos resultados
Saludos

Sgt. Kawshik Rahman ( Retd )
 
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TOBY458

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Wow! I don’t own a .416 rifle yet, but have been thinking about one? The pressure on the Remington seems very high? But, alas, so many people own and like them it’s probably a moot point? Thanks!
The pressure listed for the 416 Rem Mag is most likely for older factory loads. You can load a 416 Rem Mag to the same pressure as a 375 H&H and still get 2350 fps. And I've never heard anyone complain that the H&H is a high pressure round. In fact the 458 Win Mag produces no more pressure than the 375 H&H as well. I've never quite understood the praise for the H&H vs the disdain for the 416 Rem Mag. They both operate at nearly the same pressure, and both have a belt.
 

kurpfalzjäger

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Kurpfalzjager
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain it to me . If l understand things correctly , then what you are saying is that you respect the .460 Weatherby magnum calibre , but it is just not what you see as being the perfect calibre for your uses anymore. Am l accurate ?

You don't need a rifle caliber 460WM for shooting buffalos , and in general if you own a rifle caliber 50 too.
 
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Kawshik Rahman

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Mr. Rahman, how many languages do you speak? I admire people who are bilingual, and wish I could do more than English.
Wyatt Smith
I speak English , Bengali , Hindi and a little Spanish ( but not enough to be a fluent speaker ) . English and Spanish actually have some similarities in the wordings .
 

Wyatt Smith

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Wyatt Smith
I speak English , Bengali , Hindi and a little Spanish ( but not enough to be a fluent speaker ) . English and Spanish actually have some similarities in the wordings .
Very impressive, a lot of Americans (myself included) don’t know English well enough to speak it properly, and that made it hard for me in Spanish class at school. But now that I’m out of school I realize the importance of speaking the language correctly and wish I had paid more attention.
 

Kawshik Rahman

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Very impressive, a lot of Americans (myself included) don’t know English well enough to speak it properly, and that made it hard for me in Spanish class at school. But now that I’m out of school I realize the importance of speaking the language correctly and wish I had paid more attention.
Wyatt Smith
My late fiance , Antora was skilled in speaking six languages with much greater fluency than l could speak four .
She was an amazing lady . She spoke English , Bengali , Hindi , French , Spanish and Shanskreet ( the predecessor to modern Bengali ) .
I consider you a most well read young American gentleman. I never liked school myself either . After getting my degree in Economics , l told Father and Mother that l wanted to be a Professional Shikari instead of wearing a neck tie and sitting in a bank . Fortunately , they were very loving and supportive , although Mother was initially a little hesitant ( of course , every mother always gets nervous when her son picks a profession which involves tackling Royal Bengal tigers , leopards , Gaurs , boars , bears and crocodiles seven months of the year . )
 
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Wyatt Smith

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Wyatt Smith
My late fiance , Antora was skilled in speaking six languages with much greater fluency than l could speak four .
She was an amazing lady . She spoke English , Bengali , Hindi , French , Spanish and Shanskreet ( the predecessor to modern Bengali ) .
I consider you a most well read young American gentleman.
Thank you! I am trying to improve, however I’m sure my English teachers could comb your writing and find fewer flaws than mine.
 

Kawshik Rahman

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It's interesting the views on the 458 WM. The Blackbeards out of Serowe in Botswana swore by 458WM and killed a lot of dangerous stuff from the 1950s onwards with it

Scrummy
Scrumbag
You are correct , my British friend. Many of my clients used them with devastating effect on Royal Bengal tigers and Gaur bisons
 

CoElkHunter

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The pressure listed for the 416 Rem Mag is most likely for older factory loads. You can load a 416 Rem Mag to the same pressure as a 375 H&H and still get 2350 fps. And I've never heard anyone complain that the H&H is a high pressure round. In fact the 458 Win Mag produces no more pressure than the 375 H&H as well. I've never quite understood the praise for the H&H vs the disdain for the 416 Rem Mag. They both operate at nearly the same pressure, and both have a belt.
Thanks for explaining this Toby!
 

fourfive8

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The pressure listed for the 416 Rem Mag is most likely for older factory loads. You can load a 416 Rem Mag to the same pressure as a 375 H&H and still get 2350 fps. And I've never heard anyone complain that the H&H is a high pressure round. In fact the 458 Win Mag produces no more pressure than the 375 H&H as well. I've never quite understood the praise for the H&H vs the disdain for the 416 Rem Mag. They both operate at nearly the same pressure, and both have a belt.

Yes, thanks for posting that! I think the romance sometimes gets ahead of the reality with certain cartridges.... and the 375 HH, 416 Rem and 458 WM aren't the only ones involved in these discussions either :)

Similarly, I found the reality of the data and actual testing and results didn't exactly jibe with the "word on the street" when comparing the 416 Rem to the 416 Rigby. Without even getting into the issue of the Rigby's 100+ year old technology and design (because of the limitations and temperature sensitivity of cordite powder) plus the sheer size and bulk of the Rigby cartridge and it's inherent peculiarities for headspacing and tricky resizing parameters and by nature, because of its size and shape, not being the smoothest cycling cart in the bag..... I found the 416 Rem easily achieved the published and often touted velocity of 2400 fps with a 400 grain bullet without running into any pressure issues or reloading peculiarities. As a matter of fact, the published powder and bullet data I was using indicated a MAP pressure of only 49000 psi for a load with Varget (a temperature insensitive/ "extreme" powder) at nearly 2400 fps with a 400 grain bullet. My 400 gr bullet hunting load (with an extremely low velocity SD) is very close to 2350 fps with Varget so the pressure is certainly even lower than the 49000. I'm sure some rifles will vary as do all chambers and barrels (bores), but it just indicated to me to do my own work and not rely so heavily on the hearsay of others.
 
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CoElkHunter

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I am one of the 54 and 42.....

I do not like the 458 WM for DG.

A lot of it has to do with what you grew up with and the rest with experience
.
Lets take Land Rover vs Land Cruiser for example. If you are from England or you grew up around Land Rovers you would be hard pressed to believe that something can be better no matter the challenges faced of owning and trying to hunt with one of these. You will always like a Land Rover. I was luckily introduced to these and Land Cruisers during my time in the military and my first 2 years in Zim luckily cured me totally from Land Rovers for use as a hunting/safari vehicle. I am of the opinion that only people who do not have enough other crap in their yard use Land Rovers.

Same with guns. If you grew up around a 458 WM you would be of the opinion that it the best thing since sliced bread. I witnessed too many times issues with them, be it the rifle, the old ammo, the too small case capacity or whatever is irrelevant to me, I have no confidence in the caliber.

It also possesses some things I personally do not like in a DG caliber for use as a back up rifle which are.

Straight wall case
Belt
High pressure
And just not enough velocity

And yes as mentioned, to me it does not make sense as there are so many better options available as a DG cartridge, but as always to each his/her own.
I’ve read something before here on AH regarding issue(s) with straight walled cases, but don’t remember what it/they were? I know many large bore cartridges are of this design. Could you please explain? Thanks!
 

CoElkHunter

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@kurpfalzjäger

Selection of cartridges - calibers, is not always based on cartridge and calibers performance (which one is better), but also with two other things to consider:

1) price of ammunition, and availability of ammunition in local shops
2) availability and price of rifles in certain calibers.

For example: from the beginning 458 wm was designed to fit standard action of rifle winchester 70, and for american middle class market. And it remains in this category.

Then, I am not aware of many budget rifles chambered in other calibers like 416 rigby, 404 jef.... etc

For example, on DG calibers, serbian zastava produces mauser type rifle m70, only in 375 H&H, and 458 wm.... Thats it.

So who ever is limited in budget and market-offer options , will have to look in direction of 458 wm, for instance.
The only other rifle brand in budget pricing that comes to mind is CZ 550, with quite good selection of DG calibers.

And thats about it.

Ruger and other american brands produce rifle in proprietary calibers such as 375 Ruger, and it reduces avialiability of ammunitaion in local shops.
There is also a number of 416 calibers in same manner. For example: 416 Taylor, 416 Wby. Mag, 416 Dakota, .416 Rem. Mag., .416 Ruger, etc)

(we just yesterday had example of availability of .460 WBY ammo, in state of Texas)

So, basic question is, from all calibers good enough in DG performance:
- what is available, and what is economic?
- Not what is better or the best.

That is the main point of view when considering 458 wm caliber.
Yes, I love this discussion of all these different rifles and calibers readily available in the AH member’s respective home countries and apparently readily affordable too? To me, they’re like the many available sport cars or off road vehicles around the world. I would love to see them and maybe even drive them, but not necessarily own them due to cost and availability? Same with rifles and cartridges available here in the U.S. Some are better than others, but cost and availability of both the rifles and cartridges is the determining factor for me and probably many others reading here on AH?
 
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Pondoro

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Fellas...some years ago I did a perhaps not so very scientifical experiment. I stacked 2" by 8" pineboards and made a 1 meter thick block. I shot two rifles at 20 metres distance, my old brit. .475NE double..wich for all practical purposes is identical to .450NE. The ammo for the double was modern Kynoch factory (Kynamco) with 480 grain Woodleigh Solids...barrels on the double are 23 inches...the ammo gave 2158fps..average..

The other rifle was a ZKK 602 with 25 inch barrel..the ammo was 25 years old Federal factory with 500 grain Woodleigh solids, made early 1990´s. I never came to crono that ammo in that rifle..

Guess what...the .458s penetrated slightly better...most bullets sat in the last plank...about 97 centimetres penetration...and 2 .458´s blew clean through.. The .475 bullets penetrated some 93 - 95 centimetres..

Now...for all practical purposes...both penetrated plenty to reach an elephants brain frontal or side..or for the lung-heart shot

Later I shot several elephant with the .458, pics on my media...also used reloads for the .458...480 grain Hornady DGS cronoed to 2100fps...both worked well.. Me thinks that 450 - 480 grainers are better suited for the .458Win. All shots taken where lung/heart shots..
 

Kawshik Rahman

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Fellas...some years ago I did a perhaps not so very scientifical experiment. I stacked 2" by 8" pineboards and made a 1 meter thick block. I shot two rifles at 20 metres distance, my old brit. .475NE double..wich for all practical purposes is identical to .450NE. The ammo for the double was modern Kynoch factory (Kynamco) with 480 grain Woodleigh Solids...barrels on the double are 23 inches...the ammo gave 2158fps..average..

The other rifle was a ZKK 602 with 25 inch barrel..the ammo was 25 years old Federal factory with 500 grain Woodleigh solids, made early 1990´s. I never came to crono that ammo in that rifle..

Guess what...the .458s penetrated slightly better...most bullets sat in the last plank...about 97 centimetres penetration...and 2 .458´s blew clean through.. The .475 bullets penetrated some 93 - 95 centimetres..

Now...for all practical purposes...both penetrated plenty to reach an elephants brain frontal or side..or for the lung-heart shot

Later I shot several elephant with the .458, pics on my media...also used reloads for the .458...480 grain Hornady DGS cronoed to 2100fps...both worked well.. Me thinks that 450 - 480 grainers are better suited for the .458Win. All shots taken where lung/heart shots..
Pondoro
Thank you so much for your scientific assessment . You helped to highlight the virtues of the .458 Winchester magnum calibre through scientific break down .
During my time , most of my clients distrusted .458 Winchester magnum cartridges made by the firm Winchester . They either reloaded their own cartridges or used Remington cartridges . It is interesting how you advocate using lighter bullets in your cartridges . With 500 grain bullets being the standard for this calibre , you advocate the 480 grain variety. What this implies is that you can load your cartridges with a larger charge of powder , as the lighter bullet takes less space in the cartridge case.
Interestingly , l speculated about this possibility in this very article , itself .
I have two questions :
1) Did you ever use the 500 grain variety on elephants in Africa ?
2) Have you ever used the modern homogeneous metal bullets in this calibre ? In order to weight the same as a 500 grain metal envelope bullet , a homogeneous metal bullet would actually need to be longer , and l would think that this would even further reduce the powder capacity of the cartridge case.
 

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P
2) In order to weight the same as a 500 grain metal envelope bullet , a homogeneous metal bullet would actually need to be longer , and l would think that this would even further reduce the powder capacity of the cartridge case.

Yes, of course, but why would you do that?
Oh, sorry, I forgot I didn't want to say anything more about it :sleep:

..458 bullets.JPG
 

Pondoro

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Pondoro
Thank you so much for your scientific assessment . You helped to highlight the virtues of the .458 Winchester magnum calibre through scientific break down .
During my time , most of my clients distrusted .458 Winchester magnum cartridges made by the firm Winchester . They either reloaded their own cartridges or used Remington cartridges . It is interesting how you advocate using lighter bullets in your cartridges . With 500 grain bullets being the standard for this calibre , you advocate the 480 grain variety. What this implies is that you can load your cartridges with a larger charge of powder , as the lighter bullet takes less space in the cartridge case.
Interestingly , l speculated about this possibility in this very article , itself .
I have two questions :
1) Did you ever use the 500 grain variety on elephants in Africa ?
2) Have you ever used the modern homogeneous metal bullets in this calibre ? In order to weight the same as a 500 grain metal envelope bullet , a homogeneous metal bullet would actually need to be longer , and l would think that this would even further reduce the powder capacity of the cartridge case.

As I wrote..yes I shot elephant with the .458 500 grain solid by Woodleigh..these bullets have very thick steel envelopes..

No, I never used homogeneous brass bullets...for the obvious difficulty with lack of powder space..
However, PMP, the South african cartridge Company load .458 ammo With a 475 grain brass bullet...I have no idea how it performs...perhaps Lvw knows..?
 

Kawshik Rahman

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Yes, of course, but why would you do that?
Oh, sorry, I forgot I didn't want to say anything more about it :sleep:

View attachment 314372
Foxi
Your picture paints a thousand words .
At any rate , l am glad that you decided to step back into the discussion. It is a privilege to hear your insight.
It is then concluded that the metal envelope bullets of my time are preferable to homogeneous bullets for the .458 Winchester magnum calibre .
 

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