SOUTH AFRICA: Motshwere Safaris In Limpopo

Heaney

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Sivie, does this forum have private message capabilities? I'd like to contact you to discuss your experience.
 

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Uh, Oh!
Two guys sharing the same story about their hunt. Not a good sign at all.
 

LivingTheDream

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I can't believe the prices! 3500 for a waterbuck and 4200 for a Nyala. That is why he was ok with you coming for longer then the package stated. What are you going to do sit in camp and twittle your thumbs.

What animals did you shoot outside of your package? I could see the bill running up if you were shooting Sable. However not telling you the price and saying just shoot is very deceptive.
 

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:E Horrified:

:D Cool Drink:

:D Pop Popcorn:
 

Heaney

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Personally, I shot 2 zebras, an eland, and a duiker. They were not in my package.
When I asked how much I owed up to that point, and was told nothing, he let me swap the duiker for the steenbuck that was included in my package.

I had no intention when I arrived to shoot one zebra, much less two. However, after the implication that we had a "credit", I took a shot at a zebra and missed clean. No blood, no indication of a hit. The owner/PH insisted and assured me that it was a clean miss.
So, I took a shot later at another zebra.
Well, the next day the trackers found the first zebra while they were tracking another hunter's animal. So, I now have two zebras.

Again, though, I was also working under the assumption, as well as the owner's assurance, that I was not yet incurring any additional fees/costs.

Also, remember, even after taking the two zebras and the eland, I was told I owed no extra money.
 
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LivingTheDream

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This whole thing is rather confusing. I am frustrated for you. And they are sure the first Zebra they found the day after was yours? The credit system is pretty shakey as well.

PHs and outfitters, how does that work? If you call it a miss and it is found a day or few days later after you said shoot another? What is the protocol?
 

Heaney

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It is confusing. Mostly because the outfitter was not forthright, was evasive and was deceptive.

Yes, there is no doubt it's mine. Even I am sure. No one else had taken a zebra and not recovered it within the time frame.

I'm not sure on the protocol for this circumstance. I know that if I had wounded it and not recovered it, I would still be expected to pay for it. But had I known I wounded it, I would not have taken the second one whether we found the first one or not.

I had just accepted that I would have double the zebra taxidermy bill since I was told that I had no bill at that point. Had he told me then that I was being charged for two zebras at the time, I would probably have protested some.
 

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tap will tell you this outfitter is a saint:sneaky:, my buddy who hunted with Werner says he is crook....the lowest snake in the grass. A good salesman:whistle::whistle::whistle::whistle:
 

Heaney

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He's a helluva salesman. But, in my opinion, a dishonest one. Didn't figure it out until too late.
 

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This whole thing is rather confusing. I am frustrated for you. And they are sure the first Zebra they found the day after was yours? The credit system is pretty shakey as well.

PHs and outfitters, how does that work? If you call it a miss and it is found a day or few days later after you said shoot another? What is the protocol?


By law the client has to follow the PH's instructions.
You as a client are relying on a Professional to make calls for you. He say's it is not hit, it's not hit!
Who's responsible?
In my mind: As soon as the PH calls off the pursuit of the "possibly wounded" animal then it is deemed to be just fine and a miss.
Finding out they screwed up later and trying to shuffle it on to the client.

:S Bs Flag:
 
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From PHASA
Legal Agreements and Facilities

Further protection is provided by the legal requirement for a written agreement:

  • Regard to species and sex of game offered
  • Fees for trophies and services provided
  • Duration of the hunt and daily rates.
This agreement is entered into between the client and the hunter / outfitter prior to the client leaving his own country.

The outfitter is legally responsible for supplying all hunting requirements once the client enters South Africa, e.g.

  • transport – getting to and from the hunting area, and while hunting
  • hunting camp accommodation, for the duration of the hunt
  • catering
  • hunting services: trackers, skinners, etc.
  • provision of a licensed professional hunter
  • skinning and trophy preparation facilities, dispatch of trophies
  • arrangements with landowners for hunting of game, should this be necessary
  • all licenses and permits required for hunting
  • all permits required for dispatch of trophies
Professional Hunters/Hunting Outfitters must be licensed in each province where they operate. It is important that the client checks to make sure that the operator is licensed in the province where the proposed hunt is to take place.

The introduction and enforcement of legislation in the professional hunting industry, geared primarily to protect the client from malpractice, has effectively raised standards.
 

Heaney

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In case anyone is interested, I received the following email from Werner telling me he is following this thread.

From Werner:

Mothswere Safaris
5:49 AM (5 hours ago)
to me
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We do take note about Africahunting forum.


You tried to find somebody to back you up because you owe me money……


Chris you will not receive your trophies until you pay me in full.


Please take note by acting like you do, you only don’t want to pay your bill


P.S where did you find a pricelist suddenly? You said you did not have one?



My response:

heaney@gmail.com>
7:13 AM (4 hours ago)
to Mothswere
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Werner,
I'm glad you take note of the internet forums. You should. I was not looking for someone to back me up (but, I guess not too surprisingly, found more than one). I just want people to know how you are conducting your business. Social media is a very powerful tool these days. People research their outfitters. I want them to know the kind of experience we had and are having with Motshwere.

I WANT to pay you. But I also want straight forward answers to my questions regarding the bill. Even now, you do not answers my questions. You threaten to withhold my trophies. Give me straight, honest answers to my questions, and we can get this resolved. You may call me if you wish. You have my number in your records, but I would rather keep everything in writing at this point. Surely, as a former lawyer you can understand that. Also, quite honesty, I don't think I can trust your spoken word. I'm sorry to say.

Again, I do WANT to pay you. But, as I've stated, I cannot just give you money without a clear understanding of what I am paying for.

I will ask you again:
Question #3:
My package was paid in full on October 9, 2013
If I had taken only the animals listed in my package, and had not gone to Kruger, would I owe you any money at this point?

PS...I never said I didn't have a price list. I said I didn't have one with me. Demien also said he did not have one with him. Jim and Chad had never seen the price list, to the best of my knowledge.
 

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Heaney, welcome to AH, and sorry for the lousy experience. Fortunately, most Outfitters do not act in this way.

I would look for a competent lawyer, just to put everything in legal terms, and contact Nature Conservation in SA.
 

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Mothswere Safaris,

Since you are watching AH, welcome.

Some here have probably chosen not to post much until more evidence was given.

Feel free to join in and present your side if it differs greatly from @Heaney.
 

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Mothswere Safaris,

Since you are watching AH, welcome.

Some here have probably chosen not to post much until more evidence was given.

............

Welcome to chime in or even better someone can let us all know how this was resolved in everyones best interests!
 

enysse

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Heaney, I will be honest and upfront with you. I have hunted with 4 different outfitters in Africa and have visited with a few more. When a outfitter has a price list, they may not mention it......but they sure in hell are going to charge according to the price list. Things can change on a hunt...wounded game or missed opportunities and the terms and conditions based on the way the hunt is going....can result in discounts. But and this is big thing....always ask or get a update on that bill immediately. I asked nightly on one hunt to make sure everything was ok.

And now when I do business, I basically make a final bill up before I even set foot in Africa. I only have so much money.
 

Heaney

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Enysse,
Thanks. The actual price list wasn't the issue. We knew ahead of time that "non-package" animals would cost us. It was what we were led to believe after we arrived. It was that we were lead to believe we could take animals that were not part of our package and that we were no incurring extra costs at the time. That we were essentially working off a credit of the package price we paid. We repeatedly asked about prices of the animals and were told not to worry about it; "I'll let you know when it starts to cost you money" - Werner Lewies
Also, if you'll read in my original post, I ask point blank at one point what I owed and was told $0. Then I was told 2 days later $3500, which was to be discounted by $2000. Then I got home and received a bill for $6500.
The only difference between when I owed nothing and when I owed $3500 was that I had shot a kudu which was part of my package. I took no other animals from that point forward that I had not already paid for via the package. So my bill went from $0 t0 $6500 after I made the decision to stick to the animals I had already paid for.

I have learned a valuable lesson going forward. If I can ever save up enough money to go back to Africa, things will be different next time.
 

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