SOUTH AFRICA: Motshwere Safaris In Limpopo

LivingTheDream

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So you got 2 zebras, a kudu, an eland, and a steenbok? Did you fill any other animals on your package?

I do feel like he baited and switched you, but just trying to figure out how he came up with his number if it was a credit system and he said you were at zero balance.
 

LivingTheDream

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Also, that is a nightmare that he is holding your trophies hostage. And straight up tells you so, usually people lie and say they need to get the permits or something.
 

Heaney

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So you got 2 zebras, a kudu, an eland, and a steenbok? Did you fill any other animals on your package?
My package included: kudu, gemsbok, blesbuck, impala, blue wildebeest, warthog, and steenbuck.

I did not shoot the warthog, steenbuck, or blesbuck.

From the package, I shot the other 4.
Off the package, I shot 2 zebras, an eland, and a duiker. He let me swap the duiker for the steenbuck. And up to this point he has to give me an additional $200/animal credit for the blesbuck and warthog.

None of his numbers added up until the final bill came, then they were more or less in line with his 2013 fees.

The screwy part is how I went from $0 to $3500 to $8500 (before any discounts or credit from him), and essentially nothing had changed.

As far as hold my trophies hostage, I worry at this point that even if we settle and agree on a final bill, I'm not sure I trust him to follow through and release may animals. I worry he may get the money then still hold them ransom until he gets everything he wants from me $$$.
 

Royal27

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Welcome to AH!

Wow... What a nightmare.... Really interesting that the outfitter is watching, but won't post here with his side. Sometimes silence speaks volumes.

Here is a thought. There are four of you that all have incorrect bills, right? Stick together, that certainly won't hurt your bargaining power. And obviously make sure the bill come put right before you agree to pay anything. It seems that the threat of no trophies is being used as strong tool to get what he wants. It wouldn't be the first time that had been done.

Then, as you don't believe you can trust him, which based on his email I don't blame you, don't let the money change hands until the trophies for all four of you are accounted for at the taxidermist or dip and pack establishment of your choice. Even if the four of you have to pay a lawyer to over see that transfer of funds it sure might be worth it.

And please don't let a bad experience sour you on Africa. It is a wonderful place, with many wonderful people, and things to do. Remember, you can get raked over the coals anywhere, not just there.
 

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This whole thing is rather confusing. I am frustrated for you. And they are sure the first Zebra they found the day after was yours? The credit system is pretty shakey as well.

PHs and outfitters, how does that work? If you call it a miss and it is found a day or few days later after you said shoot another? What is the protocol?
Imo if the ph said it was a miss and called off the search then there s no charge period. Now after that one is found and you already took another I can see them keeping the first and not charging you for it but even then if it were me, I'd have chalked it up as my screw up and gave you both only charging you for one. In no way is it fair for them to charge you for both. I'm pretty confused over the bill myself. I guess he's saying that he's charging you trophy fees for the out of package animals but if you had credit then that should be deducted from the cost. Also, it's never good when an outfitter says oh go ahead and shoot it and we'll work it out later. That is very deceptive. If a client asks for a price during a hunt on an additional animal then a price should be make clear before the trigger is ever pulled. This guy smells of corrupt (n)

Don't let this turn you away from Africa though. There are very exceptional outfitters all throughout Africa. That's why this site is so great as you can get reliable references from many people who have hunted with the outfitters on this site. Good luck and I hope you get this worked out.
 

enysse

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I'll be honest with you, I lost animals due to one crooked outfitter. Unless your animals are at a dip and pack place right now....I would walk away and would not pay the bill. Your mounts are going to be ruined anyway...unless they are receiving proper care. I did the math and according to the sheet, your bill adds up correctly. Whether you feel, this is fair is a whole knew ballgame. I know you feel screwed...so did I many years ago. I think the trophy fees are crazy and you were a not educated on how hunting in Africa works. If I was the outfitter and your animals are being taken care of properly....I'd cut the bill down significantly and cut you a break, because on your end you go another hunt and kill the same animals you are leaving behind for similar costs...and that is bet that he could lose.
 

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Enysse - I am also concerned about the conditions of my mounts as I have not heard back from the taxidermist there regarding whether he even has them or not. I would assume that they are being well cared for until that point, but cape and mount care is outside my wheelhouse.

I also know the bill adds up correctly with regards to the price list. But, we were given the impression that we wren't strictly going by the price list. Had we been told "This is what they cost. You shoot this, you will owe this ...", that would've been fine. But that's not how it went. I never would've strayed from my package had that been the case. I couldn't afford to.

I actually want to pay my bill. I'm not a deadbeat. I do feel I was mislead. I do think a compromise should be reached. But, Werner has told me that he refuses to answer any more questions regarding my bill. He's accusing me of stalling. All I want are straight answers about my bill. I'm not stalling. Is it unreasonable to make sure I have a clear understanding of what I'm paying for? This isn't chump change to me.

Funny thing is, if he had just given me straight forward answers to the questions I was asking, he probably could've gotten at least some money almost a week ago. Instead, it took him three days and I had to ask 4 times in four separate emails before he answered the first question directly. Then it took another 2 days to answer the next question. After that, he said he refuses to answer any more questions. Does that sound like a reasonable guy that wants this resolved so he can get paid?
 

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..............
Mothswere Safaris
5:49 AM (5 hours ago)
Chris you will not receive your trophies until you pay me in full.
......


I would bet they are not at the taxidermist.
 

enysse

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Well my friend hunted with him and got the same run around, he had hunted Africa many times too. Unless your animals are at a dip and pack. Walk away....my friend hesitated at paying the bill. He eventually did and got his skins and horns....basically everything was mixed up and ruined. He said he didn' t receive the correct trophies. You have pictures.
 

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..............He eventually did and got his skins and horns....basically everything was mixed up and ruined. He said he didn' t receive the correct trophies. You have pictures.


:sick:
 

enysse

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Brickburn, that trip haunts him....and he has not wanted to return to Africa. He is damn nice guy too.
 

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Brickburn, that trip haunts him....and he has not wanted to return to Africa. He is damn nice guy too.

This is every last hunters nightmare.
 

Royal27

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@Heaney ,

Earlier in an e-mail to the outfitter you mentioned the power of social media, and that is true. Another thought along those lines is to share this thread, and any e-mail correspondence, with the show organizers where you bought the hunt, if you can't get resolution.

It may not help you, but maybe it keeps the next guy from getting the same treatment? Just another thought.
 

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............ Walk away............

I am usually one for working it out. But the reply from the Outfitter is a threat. Not, how can we resolve this concern.

A little tale: I came within a hairs breadth of walking away from every trophy in Botswana. Over 100 trophies were taken by the group.
The D&P company staff failed to answer questions repeatedly over a ling period of time. i.e. evaded direct questions about costs.
In attempt to stop the crap I had ALL the trophies held at the Outfitter. Then I tried to find an alternative. There are no other companies to choose from in the entire country. None.
Screwed, we are Hostage!
One last attempt.
Finally, got to deal with the owner after the Outfitter interceded and got it resolved.

In the mean time the exchange rate went to crap 30% increase in our cost, transport costs had risen, permit processes changed for the worse, several trophies were abandoned because they had spoiled while waiting.
The good side, we sure "sorted through the pile" of what we shot and many trophies were just abandoned because the warm fuzzy aura had worn off.
Our trophies are at a taxidermist (Two years alter). I am still waiting to see the results of the delay on the hides, etc.

It may be the hardest thing to believe right now but, E may be right on the money with his advice.
 

enysse

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Werner, I have heard you have amazing hunting. Just be up front...friendly, tell people what it cost. You would be surprised but most people like honest, friendly people....it works wonders for my career.

My friend was a little pigheaded...he wanted a baboon and Motshwere was more interested in selling other trophies before the baboon. That pissed him off....if he would have shot the baboon, he would have gladly spent over another 5 grand in trophies.

It only took one bad experience in Africa, for me to get educated really quick.....and for my trust level to go to zero. I will still continue to hunt Africa, but everything better be crystal clear. As a medical professional, I can tell you if it smells like poop, it is poop most of the time. Don't sugar coat crap for me.

Sometimes walking away from drama and BS is the best option.
 

Robert Grace

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I have been reading this and wonder if we hunted with the same people. We were there at almost the same time and had absolutely no problem with them. We also shot animals that were not in our package and new that they would cost above and beyond the package price. I had already looked at the same pricelist that you had and made a decision as to what extra animals I would and would not shoot. We did research to know what animal we were looking at and had already decided what the total price would be if we shot that animal. On one of our outings we saw a beautiful Sable. Werner asked if I wanted to shoot it and I replied that I would love to but knew that I could not afford it. He did not try to convince me to shoot it and simply said ok then lets move on. I shot several additional animals to my package and knew how much it would cost me in the end so I am a little confused that you would not know the prices etc having booked several years in advance. I personally found their operation more that satisfactory and would recommend it to anyone. They had plenty of great food, great accommodations and even though we were not drinkers there was an abundance of alcohol, soft drinks and whatever you wanted. My wife has Celiac disease and cannot eat any wheat products and Motshwere went out of their way to make sure she had great meals which I am sure was not easy with having to cook a separate meal for her many times. I am sorry that you feel you were taken advantage of. I am sorry but I think a little more research or preparation on your part in knowing the animals and cost would have gone a long way to solve this problem! Hopefully you can resolve the issue and go away with a great memory of a great hunt!
 

Royal27

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It is always interesting when you read a less than steller report and then within 1-2 days there are brand new members that pop up and give glowing reports on the same outfitter as the negative report. This actually caused me to do a search here to see if there was anything historical on Motshwere. Looks like there is a little bit. The first one was posted earlier today as a matter of fact.

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/south-africa-motshwere-safari-trip-of-a-lifetime.24011/
http://www.africahunting.com/threads/need-advice-on-problems-with-trophies.5488/
http://www.africahunting.com/threads/hoping-for-my-once-in-a-lifetime-hunt.7177/
http://www.africahunting.com/thread...-with-motshwere-safaris-and-outfitters.13068/
http://www.africahunting.com/threads/why.6157/

Robert,

Welcome to the forum! I hope you'll write your own detailed report about your experience and posit here. Please share picture from your trip as well. Was this your first trip, or have you gone before?
 
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I have a copy of their price list from 2013, which are the prices we locked down when we booked the hunt. The difference in the fees they are charging compared to the price list is only about $50 per animal more than the price list. That's not the issue at this point. (It will be when we settle on the other deceptions)
The issue is being told we were or were not being charged one thing, only to find out that we are being charged something else AND that money paid towards those fees is not actually going towards those fees.

When we were in SA, none of us had the price list with us. Despite our asking about how much things cost, as I said, we could never get a straight answer and were led to believe that we were not racking up any charges, much less huge charges. Then since we didn't have a price list handy, and Motshwere told us the rough estimate of charges (in my case $3500) incurred, imagine our shock to get a bill for more than twice that amount.
(FWIW, he told us it was too much trouble at the time to look up the prices on his computer and that we were the only clients he's ever had that did not have a price list with them. Since the prices he was estimating did not seem exorbitant it didn't seem necessary at the time to insist he produce a list. Another lesson learned)

Here is the 2013 price list:

View attachment 48623
Holy Shit they are proud of their animals aren't they!
 

gillettehunter

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Their prices are noticeably higher than the average........ Bruce
 

Sivie

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I have been reading this and wonder if we hunted with the same people. We were there at almost the same time and had absolutely no problem with them. We also shot animals that were not in our package and new that they would cost above and beyond the package price. I had already looked at the same pricelist that you had and made a decision as to what extra animals I would and would not shoot. We did research to know what animal we were looking at and had already decided what the total price would be if we shot that animal. On one of our outings we saw a beautiful Sable. Werner asked if I wanted to shoot it and I replied that I would love to but knew that I could not afford it. He did not try to convince me to shoot it and simply said ok then lets move on. I shot several additional animals to my package and knew how much it would cost me in the end so I am a little confused that you would not know the prices etc having booked several years in advance. I personally found their operation more that satisfactory and would recommend it to anyone. They had plenty of great food, great accommodations and even though we were not drinkers there was an abundance of alcohol, soft drinks and whatever you wanted. My wife has Celiac disease and cannot eat any wheat products and Motshwere went out of their way to make sure she had great meals which I am sure was not easy with having to cook a separate meal for her many times. I am sorry that you feel you were taken advantage of. I am sorry but I think a little more research or preparation on your part in knowing the animals and cost would have gone a long way to solve this problem! Hopefully you can resolve the issue and go away with a great memory of a great hunt!
i would have to agree with with the other guy we hunted there also and could never get a price on animals and had to pass on them because we couldnt get that price.
 

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