Rifle Lessons Learned from the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter Proficiency Exam

Discussion in 'Firearms & Ammunition' started by AfricaHunting.com, Mar 30, 2010.

  1. CAustin

    CAustin AH ENABLER BRONZE SUPPORTER AH Ambassador

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    Brian here is a fact for you! I don't know that "the fine gentleman is right".
    I did read his article and it is pure opinion just like yours and mine.
    Your somewhat new to this forum so allow me to share with you that we try to be respectful of each other here. It is good to have a gun expert like yourself share and educate the rest of us poor gene recipients! Best wishes to you on all your safaris. We look forward to hearing your reports!
     

  2. AfricaHunting.com

    AfricaHunting.com AH ENABLER FOUNDER AH Ambassador

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    @Brian Cameron, You're new here, this is a friendly community based on mutual respect. Our focus is to inform and enhance the enjoyment within the hunting safari community by encouraging the mutual exchange of experiences, ideas and opinions. Thank you for joining our community and we look forward to having you as part of our community.
     

  3. Bos Javanicus

    Bos Javanicus AH Senior Member

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    I enjoyed the article and it was an eye opener to hear his views. Unfortunately so many firearms are being built to a price and not up to a standard nowadays.
    Like the author said, which I think has been missed the further this thread goes, is that it is when the heat is on these substandard firearms fail. For 99% of their use they are fine. The Author expects, and rightly so, that every dangerous game rifle should function flawlessly, each and every time without exception. And that is a fair call when your life depends upon it, and not really all that much to ask.
    I would of liked to hear Don's view on double rifles, but I suppose not many apprentices can afford one.
    I am lucky enough to be able to hunt Buffalo over here and hunt without a PH (actually I've never hunted with a PH) to back me up if things go pear shaped and it is very unnerving when you don't have 100% confidence in your firearm. I now use a double rifle and I have 100% confidence in that. I feel safer with a double than a bolt rifle, don't know why, just me I suppose.
    Anyway, great article and thanks for sharing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016

  4. Jwg223

    Jwg223 AH Veteran

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    OP, I greatly enjoyed your post!!! I have personally seen the same exact things happen in the "tactical world" when students bring their home-build (incompetently) or DPMS/Bushmaster bargain-basement type AR15/M4 to a multi-thousand round 3 day course.

    I have seen Eotech's die. I have seen optics shoot loose on the rail and the shooter be unable to hit the targets even at closer range. I have seen muzzle devices fly downrange. I have seen piston guns puke and break non-standard parts. I have seen all manner of things go TU on someone's rifle "that worked fine last weekend at the range when they put 100 rounds in an hour through it."

    The #1 issue I see is "shoddiness of assembly". That is to say, someone will not use a torque wrench/screw-driver and stick to recommended and proper torque values. They will not use a thread-locker on screws that should have one applied. Firearms vibrate. Sound is vibration. Stuff literally falls off of these shoddy setups.

    It seems that serious hunting use brings out similar deficiencies in your "world", too!

    One question I have for OP and other PH's in this thread...what do you prefer on a DG rifle? Ghost ring? Blade and "V"? A single bead or dual bead like a shotgun? Is this a personal choice, or have you seen them "put on the clock" or otherwise tested against one another somewhat objectively?
     
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  5. Ryan

    Ryan AH Fanatic

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    I own a Ruger in 375 Ruger and I'm not bothered by the original authors assesments at all. So far it's worked flawlessly for me, but he's right for dangerous game hunting we need to run a weapon through a real, fast, and harsh course and make sure it works all he time, not just the first shot. For me it just a reality check. This is far more than the first owner of my gun who (no joke, I about freaked when he told me this) bought the gun, had a gunsmith check it, mount a scope and sight it in and then took it out for a succesful lionness hunt. He was done after that, I got an almost brand new gun. It's had a lot more rounds with me behind it, but now I think it's going to get some hard testing.
     
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  6. mdwest

    mdwest AH Elite

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    Funny... tens of thousands of the worlds most dangerous creatures (man) have been hunted.. in some of the worlds most austere and harsh environments.. in extreme cold, extreme heat, at elevation, etc.. at relatively close ranges.. and at great distances.. with Rem 700's (primary sniper system for the US Army, Navy, and USMC is a modified 700).. over the past 15+ years..

    and no one seems to be complaining about their "junk", manufactured by the lowest bidder, American made rifles..

    Effectiveness and reliability is as much about the ammo, the operator, maintenance, and long list of other things... as it is about the rifle itself..

    Opinions are like a$$holes.. everyone has one... some stink more than others.. (my opinion :) )..
     
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  7. Ryan

    Ryan AH Fanatic

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    Good point. But you must admit snipers essentially do the same thing with their weapon as the PH's did here. By the time they reach the field they know that rifle. And out of curiousity it would be interesting to find out if Remington tests those weapons more before sending them to the military than they do for the public and how many the military find with problems initially and weed out.
     

  8. Hank2211

    Hank2211 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Every rifle since the beginning of time has been made by a human being. Every rifle, of every size, shape and style.

    Whenever humans are involved, the possibility of error is there.

    There is no such thing as a failure proof rifle. Not even a double gun.

    Yes, some are better made than others, and thus tend to be more reliable than others, and they generally (but not always) cost more.

    I have not found any one country, culture, race, or creed, let alone company, produces perfection more than any other.
     
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  9. mdwest

    mdwest AH Elite

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    And still another occasion where you make unfounded assumptions that are incorrect and unsubstantiated..

    I did in fact read the entire article.. and have in fact read every one of your rambling posts..

    Since you want to go on about reading posts.. did you read mine? Where did I mention accuracy? What I said was effective and reliable.. which is a major consideration found throughout the article...

    again unfounded, unsubstantiated, drivel...

    so you don't believe that snipers shoot from all positions, to include standing? and you don't concede that the Rem 700 has performed to high standards when shot from the standing position, under extreme stress, in harsh conditions, that often exceed those found in Southern Africa?

    Where exactly does your experience and opinion come from? How much time have you spent behind a 700? How much time have you spent hunting DG in Africa? How much time have you spent hunting men? how much time have you spent hunting dangerous game anywhere other than Alaska?

    And where did my post refute anything you mention in your rambling above?

    Ill ask again.. what experience do you have? how many African hunters do you personally know? I'm relatively sure anyone that has hunted Africa, or that would take interest in the article is well aware that the vast majority of hunting in Africa, whether DG or PG, takes place as distances well below 500 yards.. this once again sounds like unsubstantiated, unsupported assumption on your part... more drivel....

    How do you know what thrill anyone gets or what motivates them on a big five hunt? you can see into the hearts, souls, and minds of other hunters?

    Can you substantiate your assumption? Have you hunted the big 5? Is this how you felt? Have you spoken to a significant number of big 5 hunters?

    Again, sounds like unsubstantiated, unsupported, drivel....


    Actually.. most of my hunting rifles are Win 70's..

    I have not hunted DG in Africa..

    Most of the shots I have taken on game in the US have been at distances of 100 yards or less.. many have been at distances of 25 yards or less.. I can only recall two occasions where I have taken shots on game at distances of greater than 150 yards..

    I have on many occasions however been in combat.. and taken shots at distances ranging from a few yards to hundreds of yards.. (hunting African game, DG or not, has zero to do with an adrenaline rush.. at least for me..)..

    and while I have never deployed as a sniper.. am a trained sniper (police, not military)..

    So once again.. your rambling above is unsubstantiated, unfounded, assumptive, incorrect, drivel....

    I would agree with you.. I don't get your drift.. nor does anyone else here from what I can tell..

    If you would care to speak in terms of facts and personal experience it could be possible that someone would agree with you on something.. but.. since you insist on speaking in terms of opinion that you have yet to substantiate.. I'm not sure anyone cares...

    If you believe your opinion to have value.. why don't you explain to us why your opinion matters.. exactly why are you an expert? and exactly why should we care?

    So do as you please and just pick the stuff out of the article you like or dislike but all said and down.

    I believe I will... until someone convinces me otherwise..


    And many people on this board have also hunted DG in Africa extensively... and clearly disagree with Dons assessment.. these include other PH's with significant amounts of experience.. I would say their opinions, since they are based on fact and personal experience are much more highly valued than yours.. but... that's my opinion :D

    Who here has said they have shot DG from a jeep at distance?

    Again, more unsubstantiated, unfounded, drivel...
     
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  10. mdwest

    mdwest AH Elite

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    Not sure I'm understanding your statement correctly.. but.. if I am reading it right, youre saying that snipers train with their rifles and practice under harsh conditions in a manner similar to what is described with the PH's? (putting the rifles through the paces, shooting fast, making sure they cycle smoothly, are reliable, testing how their rifle works with other equipment, testing themselves to make sure they can operate their rifle and other equipment under stressful conditions, etc..etc..)

    I would agree.. that is absolutely the case.. units go through pre-deployment training prior to heading overseas.. and typically will spend a lot of time on the range doing all of the above..

    While I have no scientific study to back it up.. I would guess that most US hunters that embark on a DG hunt also spend a lot of time at the range, testing their weapon, testing different loads, testing themselves, etc.. and likely know their rifles very well before they get on a plane.. and submit themselves to similar practices..

    Are there exceptions? I am sure.. I'd be willing to bet some of the PH's here could tell some horror stories about "bubba" showing up in Limpopo with a brand new $15K double in .470 NE that they have never fired a round through prior to showing up.. along with their $20K in cool guy safari accessories that they didn't unbox until an hour before they headed to the airport...

    But.. I'd also be willing to bet that those guys are the exception.. not the norm.. and are an absolute rarity here on AH... (by virtue of the fact someone has registered here, they are showing that they have an extended interest in Africa hunting, and are intentionally exposing themselves to information and guidance of others.. and are not likely the type of person that pays a ton of money for "stuff" and then expects it to work all the kinks out on its own..)...

    Most lifelong hunters I know take their sport very seriously.. they respect the game, themselves, and other hunters too much not to prepare themselves prior to a major hunt..

    I've certainly seen my fair share of "1 season" hunters who run to Cabelas in early September, buy a $350 savage package and a box of ammo and $20 in "orange" and then hit the woods a couple of weeks later having no idea what they are doing... only to sell their rifle off in Feb... (I LOVE the bargain cave in February! :) )... and decide they have now "hunted" and are ready to move on to their next adventure..

    But.. I seriously doubt those guys are found with any regularity among this group...
     
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  11. mdwest

    mdwest AH Elite

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    more unsubstantiated drivel


    more drivel

    He did so by presenting opinion.. not by presenting fact.. nothing wrong with opinion.. as long as we all recognize it for what it is..

    the issue is unreliable junk is his opinion.. and is an opinion not always shared among several others that are equally experienced...

    No doubt he has a ton of experience with dangerous game... as do several others... to include many here.. who in fact do not share his opinion...

    Disagreement does not equal disrespect..

    Your posts however have been incredibly disrespectful.. as noted by the forum owner and others..

    An opinion.. and as stated above.. not one shared by everyone..

    Finally something we agree on! :D
     

  12. spike.t

    spike.t AH ENABLER SPONSOR Since 2013 AH Ambassador

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  13. Hank2211

    Hank2211 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    If most of our conversations become like this thread, I'll be looking for a new forum.
     

  14. Velo Dog

    Velo Dog AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    +1.

    Sometimes we (I have definitely been guilty at times), sound like little boys arguing over who's sports hero can throw a ball, better than any other little boy's sports hero or little girls, bickering over who has the cutest shoes, and similar such important reasons to fling insults, low grammar, incomplete sentences and misspelled words at each other.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
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  15. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN AH ENABLER SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR LIFETIME TITANIUM BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    Me too. But alas, I can eliminate the offenders.
    Poof!
     

  16. PeteG

    PeteG AH Elite

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    :D Booze::D Pop Popcorn::A Worshipl::A Worshipl::A Worshipl::A Outta:
     

  17. Hank2211

    Hank2211 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    I get that Velo Dog, and I'm in the same camp - I've sometimes gone off a bit more than I would, in hindsight, have liked to. But there's a world of difference (in my view) between a spirited discussion, or argument (see latest lion thread), and what we're seeing here. I don't want to censor people because most on this thread seem to do a pretty good job of self-policing. But name-calling, insults, challenging integrity, bad language, etc.? Don't need that.

    And you know what? There are other forums where that would go over just fine. So those that want that can go over there, and those that don't, well, they can be here.
     
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  18. AfricaHunting.com

    AfricaHunting.com AH ENABLER FOUNDER AH Ambassador

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    Could not agree more.
    @Brian Cameron was banned earlier today, just wanted to give this new member a chance to find out who we are as a community before taking any drastic actions.
     

  19. Velo Dog

    Velo Dog AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Definitely +1 with you here Hank2211.

    If the other forum has not changed their often rowdy discussion atmosphere over there, I expect they will embrace another kindred spirit, joining their pugilistic forum.

    www.AfricaHunting.com is the best forum in the world, at least in part due to the gentlemanly atmosphere nurtured by Jerome and all the rest of you guys that, do a perfect job of repelling the overly-aggressive types.
    Some of which, evidently join here not to learn anything or submit anything interesting that someone like myself can learn from.
    Instead, it seems they join, simply to kick sand in people's faces, people they know little or nothing about.
    That "other" forum is probably just the right outlet for such angry souls.

    Kind regards,
    Velo Dog.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016

  20. Clayton

    Clayton AH Fanatic

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    Time spent with you gentlemen is time well spent.
     

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