Religions, Evolution and related Sciences

[Red Leg]

Im still not sure why these are scientific facts, what are you basing this assumption on, carbon 14 or a lecture or book? , because conjecture wont suffice , simply ,no one was around billions of years ago to verify anything, except GOD, so deductive reasoning is subject to review and criticism. the generations of Adam are listed in Genesis so all the billions of years happened before the beginning? because a professor "said so" just wont do. The atomic explosion back in the 40s at the test site created trinity crystal rock, mount saint Helens also spewed up molten rock that tested in millions of years [ carbon 14] but it was formed only decades ago. IF IM required to have faith to believe, IM going to put it in an omnipotent creator not a scientist that cannot prove it beyond all reasonable doubt. isn't science repeatable? In genesis it says{ in the days of Peleg the earth was separated speaking of continent drift ,that happened in recorded history. Christ said" the scripture cannot be broken" John10-35..
My wife makes a butter milk pie from an old recipe from her great grama that rolled into Texas on a covered wagon., but all the ingrediencies could set on the counter till the end of time , but she creates it ,

In Colossians first chapter it says CHRIST created all things in heaven and earth, thats new testament doctrine. So did time create or did Christ? If it took billions of years is it accurate to say " create" seems to me that's a stretch to make a progression of morphed soup onto a unrepeatable earth that supports life in water ,earth and air, with just enough oxygen , light, sun ,and faunna to support all these forms of life. why didnt this " happen " on mars ,the moon , Saturn, if it just requires time. ..................................................................................................................................................................

The good thing about this country is you can "believe" anything you wish. Just ask the climate change sects. You can choose between a book which is now being used by a few fundamentalists as a natural science text as well as a religious one, or the accumulated research of thousands of scientists. You can, if you wish, believe a 17th century bishop or the accumulated research of the post enlightenment.

With respect to Colossians, Paul and Timothy likely collaborated on it while imprisoned together. They at that time had no means to measure the length of God’s creation - only the beliefs of their culture. I think you and I would agree they had no access to the computations of either Bishop Ussher's based on the begets in Genesis in the 16th century or the research of three centuries of post enlightenment study by thousands working in fields ranging from paleontology to genome mapping.

I would suggest nowhere in Colossians do Paul or Timothy place a specific age or pattern of development of the world. What they emphatically do credit is the identity and preeminence of Christ as the Creator and Sustainer of all things (assuming that Christ as part of the trinity is God). Every supporter of intelligent design of our universe agrees with that wholeheartedly. What we also believe is that a God, as all knowing and all powerful as the one in which we believe, demonstrates his majesty far more over millions of years of intricate development than a folk understanding of creation committed to writing 2500 to 3500 years ago.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I don't think physical death is in view here.

Adam did not die physically the day (moment) he ate the forbidden fruit. He "died" spiritually in the sense that he lost fellowship with Yahweh...

In this sense, Yeshua gives us new life, eternal life, when we believe the gospel. One Federal Head gave us death (spiritual) and one Federal Head gives us eternal life.

This understanding does not require the absolute absence of any physical death prior to Adam.

Following up on the basis that I think physical death was also a result of the fall. At the end of creation God saw all He created and saw that it was very good. In light of that fact and under your assertion that would mean He called suffering, disease and death “very good”. Doesn’t quite track does it?

 

[Ray B]

He called suffering, disease and death “very good”. Doesn’t quite track does it?

Why then did He create Prey and Predator animals?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

The good thing about this country is you can "believe" anything you wish. Just ask the climate change sects. You can choose between a book which is now being used by a few fundamentalists as a natural science text as well as a religious one, or the accumulated research of thousands of scientists. You can, if you wish, believe a 17th century bishop or the accumulated research of the post enlightenment.

With respect to Colossians, Paul and Timothy likely collaborated on it while imprisoned together. They at that time had no means to measure the length of God’s creation - only the beliefs of their culture. I think you and I would agree they had no access to the computations of either Bishop Ussher's based on the begets in Genesis in the 16th century or the research of three centuries of post enlightenment study by thousands working in fields ranging from paleontology to genome mapping.

I would suggest nowhere in Colossians do Paul or Timothy place a specific age or pattern of development of the world. What they emphatically do credit is the identity and preeminence of Christ as the Creator and Sustainer of all things (assuming that Christ as part of the trinity is God). Every supporter of intelligent design of our universe agrees with that wholeheartedly. What we also believe is that a God, as all knowing and all powerful as the one in which we believe, demonstrates his majesty far more over millions of years of intricate development than a folk understanding of creation committed to writing 2500 to 3500 years ago.

If you believe God is omnipotent why do you downplay that fact?

Also, if Christ is who He says He is why do you believe there are other paths to God?

You’ve already more or less said you don’t believe in the Bible yet you claim to be a Christian. When or where does your belief kick in?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Why then did He create Prey and Predator animals?

He knew everything that would take place. He also made man an omnivore from the beginning when man were vegetarians (before the fall). An argument could be made that man was vegetarian until right after the flood.

There’s a deeper answer for that fact as well, survival through the shedding of blood.

 

[Ray B]

He knew everything that would take place. He also made man an omnivore from the beginning when Adam and Eve were vegetarians (before the fall).

There’s a deeper answer for that fact as well, survival through the shedding of blood.

I'm glad you know everything- It saves me the trouble of dying to quote Bob Dylan.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I'm glad you know everything- It saves me the trouble of dying to quote Bob Dylan.

No response then?.. I don’t know everything. Have you ever actually looked into any of this? Or like rookhawk and red leg do you prefer to spend your time trying to reconcile scientific theories with something that is and was supernatural?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

The good thing about this country is you can "believe" anything you wish. Just ask the climate change sects. You can choose between a book which is now being used by a few fundamentalists as a natural science text as well as a religious one, or the accumulated research of thousands of scientists. You can, if you wish, believe a 17th century bishop or the accumulated research of the post enlightenment.

With respect to Colossians, Paul and Timothy likely collaborated on it while imprisoned together. They at that time had no means to measure the length of God’s creation - only the beliefs of their culture. I think you and I would agree they had no access to the computations of either Bishop Ussher's based on the begets in Genesis in the 16th century or the research of three centuries of post enlightenment study by thousands working in fields ranging from paleontology to genome mapping.

I would suggest nowhere in Colossians do Paul or Timothy place a specific age or pattern of development of the world. What they emphatically do credit is the identity and preeminence of Christ as the Creator and Sustainer of all things (assuming that Christ as part of the trinity is God). Every supporter of intelligent design of our universe agrees with that wholeheartedly. What we also believe is that a God, as all knowing and all powerful as the one in which we believe, demonstrates his majesty far more over millions of years of intricate development than a folk understanding of creation committed to writing 2500 to 3500 years ago.

I am resolutely certain Paul and Timothy believed in the God of the Old Testament and everything that was written down.. They absolutely had access to the genealogies and they’re not overly complicated. Your assertion is incorrect to put it kindly

You keep on insinuating that young earth “theory” began rather recently. Most converted Christians believed it already they just had to solidify it due to secular scientists postulations

Your only arguments so far have been to attack the Bible and give credence to what man says over what it says.

 

[Ray B]

There is an admonishment about wrestling with a pig. All the person gets is tired and muddy, while the pig is having fun.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

There is an admonishment about wrestling with a pig. All the person gets is tired and muddy, while the pig is having fun.

Another complete avoidance of answering my questions..

It’s not nice to liken people to pigs.

Especially secular people. They don’t know any better

 

[Ray B]

Only one person mistook the admonishment confusing people with pigs. Everyone else knows that the visual of a person wrestling with a pig is just that- a person wrestles and accomplishes nothing but getting tired and muddy. All the while, the pig is having fun. It has no substitution affect except in the minds of those seeking alternate interpretations. Generally those are the ones who "don't know any better".

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Only one person mistook the admonishment confusing people with pigs. Everyone else knows that the visual of a person wrestling with a pig is just that- a person wrestles and accomplishes nothing but getting tired and muddy. All the while, the pig is having fun. It has no substitution affect except in the minds of those seeking alternate interpretations. Generally those are the ones who "don't know any better".

No I get it lol. It’s self explanatory and an age old adage. Nothing mistaken here. How about a little levity

I find it interesting that you’ll take issue with that post and critically break it down but not do the same thing with my serious posts and questions directed towards you earlier? Curious.. You didn’t like my answers to your questions or my questions to you so you’d rather ignore them and go after low hanging fruit.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Only one person mistook the admonishment confusing people with pigs. Everyone else knows that the visual of a person wrestling with a pig is just that- a person wrestles and accomplishes nothing but getting tired and muddy. All the while, the pig is having fun. It has no substitution affect except in the minds of those seeking alternate interpretations. Generally those are the ones who "don't know any better".

Also, in all honesty, I don’t enjoy these conversations very much. They’re tiresome and can be counterproductive. That said, I’ll not leave the conversation one sided or leave something unchallenged. When that happens it gives the wrong impression to onlookers who may see silence as acceptance or condoning. I won’t yield an inch.

 

[Ray B]

No response then?.. Have you ever actually looked into any of this? do you prefer to spend your time trying to reconcile scientific theories with something that is and was supernatural?

The only questions that you have asked me are quoted above. The answers are: Yes I have a response; Yes I have looked into this; and No I don't spend time trying to reconcile theories with dogma.
But I am glad that you have saved me the trouble of Silvio.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Any Rastafarian hunters here?

 

[Ray B]

Any Rastafarian hunters here?

When does the season open? What's the bag limit? and is there a minimum cartridge?

 

[Ridge Runner]

He knew everything that would take place. He also made man an omnivore from the beginning when man were vegetarians (before the fall). An argument could be made that man was vegetarian until right after the flood.

There’s a deeper answer for that fact as well, survival through the shedding of blood.

I'll admit I'm not up on quoting scripture verses. But I do remember something in The Bible about; (paraphrased) '...and GOD gave man the power over the animals.....and that GOD told man he could partake of all the animals but of the closed hoof...'

After Moses had lead 'his people' into the new land/promised land (Israel, perhaps) it was commanded where a specific area and shelter at the base of the mountain was to be constructed and only certain people were allowed to enter. Any unauthorized person would be condemned; (aka killed or exiled, abolished from the "village")

At certain time or times of the year the people were to bring food offerings which the 'celebration' was culminated by the slaughtering of an animal (a sheep or goat) as an offering unto GOD.

Thoughout these same passages there is mention of great light and fire and rolling darkness from/across the sky.

IMO These passages lead credence of the possibility to an extraterrestrial presence.

In today's world AI; those building robots to act, "parrot", resemble humans, are they not playing god?

Next question: dimissing all of the hypotheticals, carbon dating, etc., how can science be dismissed based on the proven facts that: dinosaurs, "cavemen", the "ice age", etc, at various periods through out time never existed?

 

[Hogpatrol]

When does the season open? What's the bag limit? and is there a minimum cartridge?

Have to rephrase my post, Are there any hunters here who are Rastafarians?

 

[BryceM]

Interesting topic, much better suited to a discussion around a campfire or over dinner than an open Internet forum. Too much gets left out and unspoken commonalities aren't understood.

I know what makes sense to me, but I don't really have a desire to throw it out there for others to trample over. I am a scientist at heart and by training, but the thought of vast cosmic emptiness with a speck of a planet where some cosmic accident brought about life doesn't seem right.

Religion doesn't yet have all the cards. Science doesn't yet have all the cards, but we try to understand it the best we can. I just wish we could be nice to each other as we collectively and individually figure it out.

 

[Red Leg]

I am resolutely certain Paul and Timothy believed in the God of the Old Testament and everything that was written down.. They absolutely had access to the genealogies and they’re not overly complicated. Your assertion is incorrect to put it kindly

You keep on insinuating that young earth “theory” began rather recently. Most converted Christians believed it already they just had to solidify it due to secular scientists postulations

Your only arguments so far have been to attack the Bible and give credence to what man says over what it says.

On the contrary, every bit of scientific evidence across the full spectrum of study since the enlightenment points to an ancient Earth. "Well the Bible says something different," is not a counter argument. It is instead a statement of faith, that requires you to set aside your ability to reason and requires disbelief of every bit of three hundred years of accumulated knowledge. To me, that is a very thin reed on which to judge belief. I have no doubt an all knowing God did not intend a Bible to be a 21st century natural history text.

I will be the first to admit neither of us were sitting side by side with Paul and Timothy in that cell, but even a casual reading of Paul illustrates a brilliant educated mind. I am confident he would not have the least issue, other than perhaps one of morality with respect to some of our modern entertainment, with any of the scientific discoveries of mankind to date. I personally think he would marvel at the gift of intellect with which God gifted man and what he had done with it.

It is a fact that the Anglican Church was the first to give credence to the 6000 year old claim regarding the Earth's age. Anglican Arch Bishop James Ussher "calculated" it in 1650 and it gained some credence well into the 18th century because it was added to margin notes of the printed King James Bible. However, it was never part of the Anglican Canon and was largely abandoned by all organized denominations by the early 19th century due to the obvious age of the Earth which was being expanded almost daily through the new study of geology. By the late twentieth century the Anglican Church went so far as to affirm Theistic Evolution formally rejecting the Young Earth belief.

If you haven't read any of St. Augustine's admonitions to Christians with respect to the allegorical nature of Genesis, I would urge you to do so. His "On Genesis" discusses this specific issue in Book 1 Chapters 18 & 19. It is on my desk as I type. He wrote this multi-volume treatise between 405 - 415 AD. That puts him rather closer to the subject than most.

On Genesis (Works of Saint Augustine)

No other part of the Hebrew Scriptures, aside from the Psalter and sections of the prophet Isaiah, captured the interest and aroused the attention of the early Church as did the opening chapters of the Book of Genesis. Augustine of Hippo devoted three treatises to these chapters. The first two...

www.christianbook.com

He was a great believer in knowledge and the positive power of knowledge. This is his warning to literalists echoing through the centuries to modern Christians today. We forget, to our peril, that educated believers like Augustine were well educated in the philosophical and scientific discoveries of Greek civilization.

"Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for a non-believer to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics [the earth, the sky, the stars]; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn."

St Augustine sees self-inflicted ignorance as a danger to the growth of church. Indeed, in the 5th century he saw it as a existential one. Remember the last great persecutions of Christians by Diocletian and Galerius were only one hundred years before in the 4th century. Such denial of knowledge is equally corrosive today. The goodness of the church and the majesty of God's creation are lost on potential believers by dogma that can not withstand the feeble light of even the most basic analysis. It is like the youthful son or daughter, grandson or granddaughter carefully educated in a rigid fundamentalist church, school, or home taking that first tour of the Field or Natural History Museum only to experience a crisis in faith when St Augustine would instead urge them to celebrate the vast majesty of creation.

His most celebrated work was of course "City of God."