Politics

[Mark A Ouellette]

So it's cool if someone who never held a commission to hold themselves out as a military officer?

Well, somtimes it may not be cool but is (or was) Sierra Hotel!

When I was promoted from Gunnery Sergeant to Warrant Officer-1 in the US Marine Corps, I did not have receive a commission. At that time before the US (Congressional) Warrant Officer Management Act of 1991, USMC WO-1's were appointed by the Secratary of the Navy. Note, prior to 1991, all US Army Warrant Officers were not commissioned. The WO Management Act made all services commision their Warrants starting at WO-1. It also established the rank of CWO-5.

Lacking a commision never stood in my way as I practiced Lead, Follow, or Get out of my way! On occasion I interfaced with unrestricted (regular) US Navy officers including SEALS, and US Army Special Forces Sergeant Majors and Royal Marine Color Sergeants. Those senior enlisted saluted and respectfully addressed me as sir. Frankly, the respect from those senior enlisted meant more than that from senior officers.

I received my commision when I was promoted to Chief Warrant Officer-2. That's when I became cool

 

[Brent in Az]

Don’t worry there will be plenty to watch come November

Yep ....after we win the midterms, Trump will change his stance, and we'll get a nice live streamed execution bonus.

 

[PARA45]

Yep ....after we win the midterms, Trump will change his stance, and we'll get a nice live streamed execution bonus.

Oh man, I hope God is listening, we need to win the midterms, or it will be a sh*t show for the next two year.

 

[RLD]

You're being obtuse and mixing metaphors. I gave you numerous examples of the variability of the profession, @mdwest gave you even more. Your approach was to attack @Tanks daughter as though she's a liar by conducting M&A rather than working inside a courtroom as though that's somehow scandalous.

In-house counsel in general rarely has a law license in the corporate State's domicile. In-House counsel doesn't litigate. Even if they did, which they wouldn't, they would ask for "pro hac vice" and be accepted in the court for the matter.

A.) Did someone hang a shingle as an independent business providing legal services? B.) Did they offer legal advice for outside firms/clients? C.) Did they approach the bench, assert to a judge they were attorney, and lacked a P-number?

I find it interesting a subject of the British legal system would be so pedantic. The rigor is less and there are a myriad of associates-degree level attorney/lawyer/barrister options under most british common law jurisdictions.

We're just telling you how things can work in America.

You have not been following. Or are ignoring what has been said.

None of mdwest's examples were people who were allowed to practise without being called to the bar and writing a bar exam. They are examples of new mobility rules (which apparently you are not familiar with - most non-lawyers are not) that allow for easier cross jurisdiction mobility. They do not obviate the need to be called to a bar to use the title attorney. They just allow you to use the term in more areas after you have been called to the bar somewhere.

In house counsel (as opposed to out house counsel), almost without exception are called to a bar, having written a bar exam etc.

Tank's daughter, as Tank admitted, was called to the bar and passed the bar exam. Tank is welcome to correct me if she did not. Her example does not support your argument. Not even close. She wrote the exams, got called to the bar and practised law. Bob's your uncle.

I know how things work in America. You apparently do not.

The new spokeswoman, as I understand it, has never written a bar exam, or been called to a bar. She has held herself out an attorney. She has claimed and used a title she has not earned.

Let me give you another analogy if you don't like the military one. Here in Ontario to become an electrician you have to work a whole bunch of apprenticeship hours, take courses and finally pass a qualification exam, pay your dues etc and get registered. Is it okay for people who havn't passed the exam or paid their dues and got registered to call themselves an electrician?

 

[RLD]

Yep ....after we win the midterms, Trump will change his stance, and we'll get a nice live streamed execution bonus.

Instead of the 5k or in addition to?

 

[SaintPanzer]

Well, somtimes it may not be cool but is (or was) Sierra Hotel!

When I was promoted from Gunnery Sergeant to Warrant Officer-1 in the US Marine Corps, I did not have receive a commission. At that time before the US (Congressional) Warrant Officer Management Act of 1991, USMC WO-1's were appointed by the Secratary of the Navy. Note, prior to 1991, all US Army Warrant Officers were not commissioned. The WO Management Act made all services commision their Warrants starting at WO-1. It also established the rank of CWO-5.

Lacking a commision never stood in my way as I practiced Lead, Follow, or Get out of my way! On occasion I interfaced with unrestricted (regular) US Navy officers including SEALS, and US Army Special Forces Sergeant Majors and Royal Marine Color Sergeants. Those senior enlisted saluted and respectfully addressed me as sir. Frankly, the respect from those senior enlisted meant more than that from senior officers.

I received my commision when I was promoted to Chief Warrant Officer-2. That's when I became cool

Oh, and we haven't even touched "Kentucky Colonels" yet...

 

[Brent in Az]

Kroger plans to cut 3000 corporate jobs over the next 3 years as it plans to use AI to reduce duplicate work.

And so it begins.....

 

[mdwest]

You have not been following. Or are ignoring what has been said.

None of mdwest's examples were people who were allowed to practise without being called to the bar and writing a bar exam. They are examples of new mobility rules (which apparently you are not familiar with - most non-lawyers are not) that allow for easier cross jurisdiction mobility. They do not obviate the need to be called to a bar to use the title attorney. They just allow you to use the term in more areas after you have been called to the bar somewhere.

In house counsel (as opposed to out house counsel), almost without exception are called to a bar, having written a bar exam etc.

Tank's daughter, as Tank admitted, was called to the bar and passed the bar exam. Tank is welcome to correct me if she did not. Her example does not support your argument. Not even close. She wrote the exams, got called to the bar and practised law. Bob's your uncle.

I know how things work in America. You apparently do not.

The new spokeswoman, as I understand it, has never written a bar exam, or been called to a bar. She has held herself out an attorney. She has claimed and used a title she has not earned.

Let me give you another analogy if you don't like the military one. Here in Ontario to become an electrician you have to work a whole bunch of apprenticeship hours, take courses and finally pass a qualification exam, pay your dues etc and get registered. Is it okay for people who havn't passed the exam or paid their dues and got registered to call themselves an electrician?

Lets try this again...

there are plenty of roles an attorney can play in the US without being admitted to the bar.. and they can certainly "practice" law, just not all law.. and there are actually many situations where attorneys can be admitted to the bar without sitting for the bar exam..

In Wisconsin for example.. attend an accredited law school.. like the Univ of Wisconsin Law School or Marquettes law school.. and you can be admitted to the bar, without sitting for the wisconsin bar exam..

https://law.wisc.edu/current/diploma_privilege/

In Oregon there is a pathway to being allowed to practice without passing the bar where attorneys can work supervised under other licensed attorneys..

No Bar Exam Required to Practice Law in Oregon Starting Next Year

The alternative program will see graduates work supervised hours to complete a legal portfolio.

www.legal.io

Utah, New Mexico, and Washington all have similar programs.. and several other states are in the process of creating "alternative" programs of their own...

Then we have specialized fields of law in the US that do not require passing a state bar exam.. an example would be patent law.. patent attorneys take the USPTO Patent Bar Exam, and usually have degrees in engineering and other science fields in addition to their JD... (my understanding is the USPTO is a much bigger bitch than state bar exams though)..

Many states in the US do not require admission to the bar to work in arbitration or mediation..

And.. if we go back to Ontario Hunters original post.. the press secretary worked in China.. where NO ONE other than Chinese nationals are allowed to sit for their equivalent of the bar exam.. MANY US and Euopean attorneys however work in legal fields in China and are involved in everything from intelectual property, to international law consulting..

If you want to dig in deeper.. more and more states and law schools in the US are sticking their middle finger up at the American Bar Association and basically telling them to kiss their assess..

California took on online laws chools as far back as 1998 and will grant law licenses and allow grads from those schools to be admitted to the california bar, despite the ABA raising hell years ago disallowing any online training for state bar applicants.. for what its worth, prior to online, CA had correspondence course law schools as far back as 1982...

After COVID, for obvious reasons the ABA started taking a lighter approach, but has still insisted that online courses be minimal.. Harvard threatened them a few years ago and challenged them to try to disallow Harvard JD's from taking a bar exam.. stating Harvard would decide how much or little online courses would be allowed, not the ABA... shortly thereafter the ABA conceeded and agreed that up to 50% of a JD can now be taught online.. Purdue and the University of Hawaii have responded with a similar Harvard middle finger and have released 100% online Juris Doctors.. my understanding is several other schools are in the process of doing the same thing.. and the states are all telling the ABA to kiss their ass..

The ABA and the bar as we currently know it are dying a much more rapid death than anyone thought they would even just 10 years ago.. the ABA and the bar exams are going to either rapidly reform... or the universities and the states in the US are going to get rid of them altogether..

 

[spike.t]

Good or bad, Trump worked out a deal with Putin for a small quantity of diesel. Zelenskyy responded by hitting Russian refineries. Trump told Zelenskyy to stop. Zelenskyy continued to hit the Russian refineries. Trump evidently had the pentagon limit Zelenskyy’s access to Starshield.

Like the situation or not, when you rely on help from others in a war it is good not to hack your benefactor off.

Ww will have to agree to disagree on this one...Trump announces what he feels like...neither Ukraine or Russia seemed to have any knowledge of his power/ fuel ceasefire.....Russia definitely didn't care as struck Ukraine power infrastructure not long after Trump announced it....so Ukraine retaliated ....no option and good on them....the diesel is being supplied is a literal drop compared to what usa uses....it will make no difference to prices....and Ukraine hitting Russian refineries etc isn't what has caused prices to go up.....it's the war with Iran....and now the houthis ramping it up......he is having a toddler tantrum unfortunately......

 

[fourfive8]

Ww will have to agree to disagree on this one...Trump announces what he feels like...neither Ukraine or Russia seemed to have any knowledge of his power/ fuel ceasefire.....Russia definitely didn't care as struck Ukraine power infrastructure not long after Trump announced it....so Ukraine retaliated ....no option and good on them....the diesel is being supplied is a literal drop compared to what usa uses....it will make no difference to prices....and Ukraine hitting Russian refineries etc isn't what has caused prices to go up.....it's the war with Iran....and now the houthis ramping it up......he is having a toddler tantrum unfortunately......

Can’t be both ways, Biden was claiming record high fuel prices in US caused by Ukraine-Russia war years before Iran conflict. I don’t recall much debate about the validity of that. ??

 

[wesheltonj]

I can't speak for other states. In Texas for example, foreign Lawyers register as a "Foreign Legal Consulate" however cannot represent others in Court. Some foreign lawyers will get an LLM in American Law (first year JD courses and then be able to take the Bar.

There are two accrediting bodies for Law Schools in the USA. (1) ABA, which the State of Texas just told to go to hell; and, (2) Association of American Law Schools (AALS) which accreditation is more rigorous than the ABA.

Texas does have reciprocity with several states, where if you have practiced in a reciprocity state for 5 years you can get a Texas License.

Lots of jobs for JD's that don't required appearing in Court.

 

[Mekaniks]

BSC (bat shit crazy) MTG posted this today......just BYH

 

[RLD]

Lets try this again...

there are plenty of roles an attorney can play in the US without being admitted to the bar.. and they can certainly "practice" law, just not all law.. and there are actually many situations where attorneys can be admitted to the bar without sitting for the bar exam..

In Wisconsin for example.. attend an accredited law school.. like the Univ of Wisconsin Law School or Marquettes law school.. and you can be admitted to the bar, without sitting for the wisconsin bar exam..

https://law.wisc.edu/current/diploma_privilege/

In Oregon there is a pathway to being allowed to practice without passing the bar where attorneys can work supervised under other licensed attorneys..

No Bar Exam Required to Practice Law in Oregon Starting Next Year

The alternative program will see graduates work supervised hours to complete a legal portfolio.

www.legal.io

Utah, New Mexico, and Washington all have similar programs.. and several other states are in the process of creating "alternative" programs of their own...

Then we have specialized fields of law in the US that do not require passing a state bar exam.. an example would be patent law.. patent attorneys take the USPTO Patent Bar Exam, and usually have degrees in engineering and other science fields in addition to their JD... (my understanding is the USPTO is a much bigger bitch than state bar exams though)..

Many states in the US do not require admission to the bar to work in arbitration or mediation..

And.. if we go back to Ontario Hunters original post.. the press secretary worked in China.. where NO ONE other than Chinese nationals are allowed to sit for their equivalent of the bar exam.. MANY US and Euopean attorneys however work in legal fields in China and are involved in everything from intelectual property, to international law consulting..

If you want to dig in deeper.. more and more states and law schools in the US are sticking their middle finger up at the American Bar Association and basically telling them to kiss their assess..

California took on online laws chools as far back as 1998 and will grant law licenses and allow grads from those schools to be admitted to the california bar, despite the ABA raising hell years ago disallowing any online training for state bar applicants.. for what its worth, prior to online, CA had correspondence course law schools as far back as 1982...

After COVID, for obvious reasons the ABA started taking a lighter approach, but has still insisted that online courses be minimal.. Harvard threatened them a few years ago and challenged them to try to disallow Harvard JD's from taking a bar exam.. stating Harvard would decide how much or little online courses would be allowed, not the ABA... shortly thereafter the ABA conceeded and agreed that up to 50% of a JD can now be taught online.. Purdue and the University of Hawaii have responded with a similar Harvard middle finger and have released 100% online Juris Doctors.. my understanding is several other schools are in the process of doing the same thing.. and the states are all telling the ABA to kiss their ass..

The ABA and the bar as we currently know it are dying a much more rapid death than anyone thought they would even just 10 years ago.. the ABA and the bar exams are going to either rapidly reform... or the universities and the states in the US are going to get ride of them altogether..

It is amazing how hard the MAGA faithful will try to defend this lady.

I know you have to try again, because all of the examples you gave in your first post required a call to the bar!

This has almost nothing to do with the ABA, it is all about state bar associations, who are alive and very well.

The press Secretary has not graduated from a Wisconsin law school or completed an alternative "articling" entry program now has she? That is just a lot of hand waving. She has not been admitted to any bar I am aware of, by any means, traditional or alternative.

She has not been called or admitted to any recognized bar. She should not hold herself out an as attorney if she has not been admitted to any bar, just like one should not hold oneself out as a military officer without a commission or an electrician without proper qualification.

Working in China does not mean you are an attorney. Working in China on legal issues does not make you an attorney either, just like working in China on a doctor's office does not make you an M.D. or wiring houses in China does not make you an electrician. I don't call myself Senator just because I follow politics closely and have studied political science!

You misuse the word "attorney." One can be a lawyer and not be admitted to the bar. The definition of the word attorney contains the prerequisite of being admitted to a legal bar. In many U.S. states claiming to be an attorney without having been called to the bar is a crime, although only prosecuted in limited circumstances. Being trained in the law does not mean you are approved to practise the law, which is what an attorney is, as opposed to a lawyer.

 

[RLD]

I can't speak for other states. In Texas for example, foreign Lawyers register as a "Foreign Legal Consulate" however cannot represent others in Court. Some foreign lawyers will get an LLM in American Law (first year JD courses and then be able to take the Bar.

There are two accrediting bodies for Law Schools in the USA. (1) ABA, which the State of Texas just told to go to hell; and, (2) Association of American Law Schools (AALS) which accreditation is more rigorous than the ABA.

Texas does have reciprocity with several states, where if you have practiced in a reciprocity state for 5 years you can get a Texas License.

Lots of jobs for JD's that don't required appearing in Court.

There are tons of jobs for JD's that don't require appearing in court. But the practise of law includes lots of things that don't involve going to court.

But it is also a crime in Texas to practise law without a license issued by the bar association. You can't even give legal advice in Texas without being called to the bar and the State Bar Association there issues lawsuits against people who do so without a license when they cannot get prosecutions going. They take that shit very seriously in Texas.

FLCs are lawyers fully licensed in foreign jurisdictions who get special permission from the State Supreme Court to help people understand the laws where they are licensed. They are not considered Texas attorneys at all.

 

[wesheltonj]

You misuse the word "attorney." One can be a lawyer and not be admitted to the bar. The definition of the word attorney contains the prerequisite of being admitted to a legal bar. In many U.S. states claiming to be an attorney without having been called to the bar is a crime, although only prosecuted in limited circumstances. Being trained in the law does not mean you are approved to practise the law, which is what an attorney is, as opposed to a lawyer.

Maybe in Canada. I assure you if you are a lawyer in Texas, you have a license and if you don't you can expect a letter from the Unauthorized Practice of Law Committee from the State Bar (We have a Unified Bar in Texas). When I was representing folks I used the term Lawyer (Which is Slang) even though my license says Attorney and Counselor at Law.

 

[RLD]

Maybe in Canada. I assure you if you are a lawyer in Texas, you have a license and if you don't you can expect a letter from the Unauthorized Practice of Law Committee from the State Bar (We have a Unified Bar in Texas). When I was representing folks I used the term Lawyer (Which is Slang) even though my license says Attorney and Counselor at Law.

You are quite correct. As I said above, they take that shit seriously in Texas.

Latest reporting from WSJ says that the press secretary failed her bar exam in Cali.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

BSC (bat shit crazy) MTG posted this today......just BYH

View attachment 800159

She sure does often seem/sound bat shit crazy, and I think she's overstating things, but I don't see a lot to argue with in the first two paragraphs, except maybe saying things with Iran were unprovoked. The rest of those 2 paragraphs sounds pretty spot on.

 

[Brent in Az]

BSC (bat shit crazy) MTG posted this today......just BYH

View attachment 800159

We'll find out on November 3rd if she's right.

 

[Russ16]

We'll find out on November 3rd if she's right.

I’m more than willing to take action on the November elections. Dems will 100% win the house. It’s just a matter of by how many seats.

 

[Brent in Az]

I’m more than willing to take action on the November elections. Dems will 100% win the house. It’s just a matter of by how many seats.

I don't know, but Ive heard leftist opinions, and. FOX poll that the Dems could take 237 seats? I've also heard Mike Johnson saying that the Republicans will easily prevail based on the campaign energy, and a Democrat party warchest shortfall.
Each party is assuring it's base that they will win.
I've also heard that many polls have been under sampling Republicans.
Historically, the opposing party usually wins the midterms.
Will Trump's promise of $5k turn the tides?
The other elephant in the Democrat room is the DSA, and moderate Democrats and independents shying away from the growing socialist factions
What positive platform are the Democrats running on besides the usual "Get Trump" narrative?
I will admit that Trump did us no favors with an Iranian conflict, and high fuel costs in an election year.

I'm remaining cautiously optimistic.