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JGRaider

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very big difference a booking agent makes 10 to 15% of you. I will get some breaks on my own hunt never taking a penny from the people I help. Plus we are not all alike when it comes to booking people. If the place were I go does not work for people who are looking to go to africa I will help them anyway. I have sent more then one guy to namibia or the east cape because of what they wanted to hunt.

Must of us so called reps are here to to help answer question about the outfit we help. why because we like to hunt and we found a place we like with people we like.

I'm sure you provide a valuable service to potential clients. I was mislead by a guy just like you, a US representative for a SA outfitter, on this very site. When I showed up in SA it was not as represented. What are you gonna do, turn around and go home ? Turns out the more hunters he booked, the less his personal hunt with the outfitter cost.......imagine that. Hence, I will not use another. Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me. Booking agents make a commission from the outfitter, not the hunter IME.
 

enysse

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avoid the warthog, not "worth" the extra paper work, money and hassle to bring that home

I don't agree, I know a guy that has his HUGE warthog as a center piece of his trophy room. I must admit it looks GRAND and I'm jealous.
 

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I refuse to put my expenses all down on one piece of paper :D

All has been covered her somewhere already. Specially ask your chosen PH to detail the dip and pack prices, estimated shipping etc and if you use a US importer- ask them ahead of time their costs.

AND make sure you know payment options- it's very hard to pull out a credit card and use at most hunting operations over there. I learned after my 2nd trip that my outfitter would have gladly accepted an assurance from me to wire him money when I returned home. I left 2 animals on the table that trip bc I didn't have the funds on me personally at the time but because I didn't get it clear up front.
 

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I don't agree, I know a guy that has his HUGE warthog as a center piece of his trophy room. I must admit it looks GRAND and I'm jealous.


I agree on the warthog. I had one mounted there and there is no extra problems with shipping then. If you want to bring one dip/pack then it does take some extra paperwork.
 

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I'm sure you provide a valuable service to potential clients. I was mislead by a guy just like you, a US representative for a SA outfitter, on this very site. When I showed up in SA it was not as represented. What are you gonna do, turn around and go home ? Turns out the more hunters he booked, the less his personal hunt with the outfitter cost.......imagine that. Hence, I will not use another. Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me. Booking agents make a commission from the outfitter, not the hunter IME.


I hear you with how your deal went and it was not what you wanted in the end. I will just say if you noticed you dont see them around here anymore. The bad ones who mislead people go by the way side pretty quick or at least are forced to look for business elsewhere.

There are plenty of good outfitters in SA and with the right search anyone can find a hunt that will work for them just like any other country.
 

jeff

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That's a valid point, but I wasn't referring to what I'd call a USA representative of only one outfitter. Those are everywhere nowadays, and I'd never use one. I am referring to booking agents who have multiple African outfitters to choose from. Big difference.
I also was referring to booking agents who book multiple outfits all over the world, they may book for 30-50 outfitters and at best if they visited all the outfits once that's about the best they could do. They also are getting paid by the outfitter and are under their employ. Their job is to sell hunts. I'm not saying that a good booking agent can't be of help, I just like to deal directly.
 

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avoid the warthog, not "worth" the extra paper work, money and hassle to bring that home.
I,ve just brought the tusks back in my carry on as souvenirs.
 

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By all means, get a warthog! They make some awesome mounts. (y)
IMAG0716.jpg
 

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That's the thing about warthogs, you either love them or hate them. I guess that on my safari I loved them too much and didn't get to shoot one. Another hunter in my group didn't care for them and shot two of them.

I personally don't think that the extra paperwork and second shipping container are that bad if you plan for it. But it is like anything else, just don't go in blind thinking that there won't be any extra preparations involved in getting one home.
 

Hogpatrol

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That's the thing about warthogs, you either love them or hate them. I guess that on my safari I loved them too much and didn't get to shoot one. Another hunter in my group didn't care for them and shot two of them.

I personally don't think that the extra paperwork and second shipping container are that bad if you plan for it. But it is like anything else, just don't go in blind thinking that there won't be any extra preparations involved in getting one home.
I'm curious about the extra prep and boxes. My mounts shipped in the same box with the same stack of paperwork. No problems with any U.S. agencies regarding import.
 

Royal27

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I'm curious about the extra prep and boxes. My mounts shipped in the same box with the same stack of paperwork. No problems with any U.S. agencies regarding import.

Only an issue for raw trophies, not finished taxidermy. It is because it is swine and a fear of importing disease.
 

Hogpatrol

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Only an issue for raw trophies, not finished taxidermy. It is because it is swine and a fear of importing disease.

Roger. Thanks.
 

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I was mislead by a guy just like you, a US representative for a SA outfitter, on this very site. When I showed up in SA it was not as represented.

JG, I am truly sorry to hear that you feel you were mislead by someone here at home, on this site representing an African outfitter. I think it's fair to say that the outfitter himself can mislead, misrepresent, or outright lie about their operation just as easily as any representative. Like you said, you didn't know what you didn't know but I think that's where checking references, reading hunt reports, and using multiple sources of research comes in to play.

For me, I guess you can say that the opposite was true. I dealt almost exclusively with the US rep for the outfitter that I selected and had a wonderful experience all around. In fact, he was invaluable to me in answering questions in a timely manner and helping with the small details of planning. Still, his word was not my only source of information in selecting the outfitter. The fact that what he was saying checked out against other sources is what ultimately lead to my decision. Suffice to say, one needs to do their due diligence with whomever they are dealing with.
 

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Some of the comments offered in this thread remind me of a similar thread where an individual booked a safari through the outfitter at one of the sportsman's shows. He had a negative experience, and subsequently, made the silly generalization that SCI, DSC, or other similar venues are full of con-artists and hustlers and therefore, one needs to be wary at these types of venues. Similarly, in another thread, someone made inference that they felt duped into making a poor decision by a "flashy website". Yet another stated that they would never use a reference because references are all just friends of the outfitter... The examples go on and on.

The term "due diligence" is often used here, and rightfully so in my opinion. In this age of too much information, there are a multitude of resources available to the safari consumer. Using a safari company representative, consultant, agent, client references, outfitter's websites, hunting reports & forums, internet reviews, and visiting the sportsman's shows are ALL extremely valuable tools in researching an outfitter. However, they need to be used collectively and in context to get their full value.

It would be unwise to rely on any single resource. It is just as unwise to not utilize all of the resources that are available to help make an informed decision which absolutely includes collecting advice and direction from those who have been there and done that, and speaking personally with the outfitter if possible...... With all of this information that is relatively easy to access these days with just a keyboard, a cell phone, and a little time, I truly feel it's nearly impossible to make a poor choice when selecting an outfitter for Africa, or any other outfitted destination. The combination of information and a little common sense will go a long way. Although at times it can seem overwhelming, I believe that the research and planning is all part of the experience that builds anticipation. I also think it can be half of the fun. Embrace the experience wisely.
 

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That's all well and good firehuntfish, and I agree 100%. However in my case I did do all the due diligence I could. Besides numerous conversations with the US rep here, I talked to 15'ish customers/references. All of them were positive (not surprising), but once again I didn't know what I didn't know. I did not know to ask them if they were a "put and take" operation (they were I found out while I was there, from the owner), and didn't ask them about the size of the farm since I was promised I'd be hunting a 10,000 acre farm. Turned out we hunted a 4000 acre farm. We did wind up hunting 3 other farms ranging in size from 1800 t0 4500 acres......not my cup of tea. Most of the contacts wanted to refer straight to the 200,000 acre concession they had access to. I also didn't realize that many outfitters refer to their hunts as "free range", when in fact it is surrounded by a 4000 acre high fence. They use the excuse that fences mean nothing to eland and kudu, but where I grew up, the meaning of free range means low fences. Once again, I was naive.

I will disagree with you in that it would be impossible to make a poor choice though. Dishonest outfitters are everywhere, unfortunately, and SA has their fair share, as does the US and Mexico. Planning a hunting trip is great fun, and I'm in the middle of planning my 4th safari right now. I am much more educated nowadays.
 

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JG,
My comments were not intended to single you out. :) Your experience is just one of many examples of the point I was making. In all sincerity, I empathize that you felt deceived. I can personally assure you that I take it very seriously when I hear that a safari client had a negative experience for any reason. It makes everyone involved in the business look bad. But that too, needs to be taken into context for the circumstances of what really occurred.

There is no excuse for any outfitter or their representatives deceiving client's expectations. However, I honestly believe you possibly could have avoided your disappointment had you asked the right questions about the concessions beforehand. That is were Forums like this one are extremely valuable. There are many posts referring to what questions should be asked of the outfitter during the research phase. There are also lots of knowledgeable and eager folks here willing to offer everyone that kind of direction....I'm always providing prospective clients with a list of questions that I feel are imperative for getting them the pertinent information that they need to make informed decisions and comparisons between outfitters. The harder a prospective client looks, and the more detailed questions asked, the better it is for me in my opinion.

As for the "free range" thing, I personally would never pose that embellishment to a client. High fenced concessions no matter how large, are technically not "free range"and I would never represent them as such... However, I will unequivocally stand by my opinion that there is absolutely no difference in the wariness or challenge of hunting game animals on huge concessions whereby most of the animals are naturally propagated. I also believe that a fence is no barrier whatsoever to many of the animals that inhabit "high fence" properties. Good luck containing leopards, cheetahs, warthogs, duikers, steenboks, hyenas, jackals, porcupines, caracals, civets, wildcats, badgers, baboons, monkeys, genets,... you get the idea... But, that is a debate for another thread another time...

In fact JG, I think I recall having a conversation with you about a hunt inquiry some time ago... I don't recall the particulars, but I hope you felt that you were given straightforward, no BS information? ;) Best of luck to you on your 4th safari!
 

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Dan L, I find you to be a stand up guy. I appreciate that. I will just respectfully disagree with you on the small high fenced farm's (up to 4000 acres) game animal wariness. Whether it's here in TX, or over in SA, I see/saw little difference. But as you say, that's another debate entirely.

Keep up the good work Dan. Honest insight is invaluable to someone who is new to the Africa thing.
 

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Truenorth1 first welcome to the site, you will find many VERY knowledgeable people here and a group of like minded people. Like most folks have said the first safari will start you down a fun and memorable path that will lead to "How soon can I get back". Did my first safari in 2013 on the eastern cape and hunted plains game and did a photo safari in Kruger after. It was going to be my trip of a lifetime and went with friends and my girlfriend (Now wife), had a great time and introduced my lady to hunting. (That is a great experience and also leads to more expensive safaris:) We were standing in line to get on the plane coming home and my wife and my buddies wife informed us that we were coming back in 2015 so We could hunt Cape Buffalo and they could hunt specific plains game. My wife now has a list for the next safari she wants and mine now has cats on it. Have a motorcycle trip to NZ and a AK bear hunt to do first. But will go back in the next couple years when we have saved enough.
I was lucky and had the good fortune to have several friends that had been over several times and gave me some good advice.
1. For me it was very important to hunt in a large contiguous property. (didn't want to do a tarmac small farm to farm hunt) I sat the min property size to 50,000 contiguous acres.
2. I sat a budget that had the hunt package in it and budgeted for 10% tipping and enough extra for 2 animal that the tracker and PH's eyes bulged out of socket on. Budgeted for taxidermy. Flights and then added 10% to the whole kit and kaboodle and come in under budget. (That lead to a new rifle for my wife)
3. Did the economy upgrade on the Delta flight over for more leg room.
4. Used a safari travel agent to take care of the meet and greet service, SAP 520 paperwork, EXTRA health insurance, (Most all insurance companies don't cover you on your home counrty policy)
5. Went to DSC and SCI and talked to everyone and got a feel for what was offered and worked my way down to a couple Safari Companies.
6. Went home and did internet searched for good and bad comments, called all the references.
7. Then went with my gut feeling and booked my hunt. The second safari I had help in researching where to go with my buddy, his wife and my wife to help.
8. As a group we talked to the outfitter as singles, couples and group. Made sure we got the same story and all had a positive impression.
9. You can sometimes negotiate the daily rate be waived for observers. It does help when you have more than one couple to ,make that a good deal for the outfitter and your group.
 

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That's all well and good firehuntfish, and I agree 100%. However in my case I did do all the due diligence I could. Besides numerous conversations with the US rep here, I talked to 15'ish customers/references. All of them were positive (not surprising), but once again I didn't know what I didn't know. ......................... Once again, I was naive.

I will disagree with you in that it would be impossible to make a poor choice though. Dishonest outfitters are everywhere, unfortunately, and SA has their fair share, as does the US and Mexico. Planning a hunting trip is great fun, and I'm in the middle of planning my 4th safari right now. I am much more educated nowadays.


I appreciate when someone shares that they felt they researched well and then found out later that "they did not know".
I had that feeling long before I left for Africa the first time.
I went way further than most hunters ever will to learn about hunting in Africa. Specifically, South Africa and Namibia on my first trip.
ie. Taking and graduating the PH course. I wanted to know the game and the law. I could not fathom going to a place to hunt and not know what I was doing.

How many of you have local GPS software and know the farm property boundaries where you have hunted?
I do and have used it from the start.
I mapped out entire farms using local GPS software and also on Google Earth. Farm names, etc. Google Earth does not have any interest is misleading you.
I asked for CAE's, Licenses, Permit numbers, etc. Current copies. Honest operators will send them without question.
Do you know what a bonafide permit looks like?

I appreciated many of the comments and reports I read here and I also continue to read between the lines.
It takes much more effort but you get more out of it.
I continue to learn every day.

After reading about the concerns and differences in farms; low fence, high fence, no fence, I made two bookings.
One on a farm in Namibia (that was a cattle farm really) that was part of a "conservancy".
We never left the farmers actual property and mostly waited for game to come to us. However, I did get one or two walk and stalks in on my Eland.
What drew me to the area was the large herd of Eland in the conservancy. It is actually where the current world record was from.

The second hunt I booked was on a large property in Natal that had a high fence. (It's required by law to be able to hunt year round)
It was 8000 Ha and open fenced to other properties, which when combined added up to much more than 8000Ha.
The animals were free to leave the property I was hunting at any time and be quite "safe" right next door where they would not be hunted.
The game was never pressured enough to push them off the property I was hunting.

These two hunts are not even comparable, beyond the fact that I was hunting in Africa.
How do you compare staying and eating with a cattle farm family, sleeping in a small bunk house listening to the workers family squabble to a four star resort with king size beds, heaters, served four course meals and all the mega fauna (except lions) roaming around the hunting area. (Croc, Hippo, Elephant, B&W Rhino, Buffalo, Leopard)
From seeing ONE Oryx, that I shot to large herds of game.
I enjoyed both places and the hunting in both.
Make sure you are booking what and how you want to hunt. Skip the country bashing, as there are great hunts to be had in every country.

When you look at all those trophy pictures on a website do you ever think of when they might have been taken? Are they really from that Outfitter.
I had some of my own trophy pictures show up on some Outfitters FB site. He had access to the property I hunted and was offering hunts there so he used my trophy pictures to promote his hunts.
Needless to say I was not impressed. I contacted the owner and had them address my concerns.
The pictures were removed.

At least with a hunting report written by the hunter I get to see their actual trophies and how they hunted. In all likelihood you will also see the terrain in those sun set panoramas that everyone takes.


Another source of information can be the instance when you see that someone is going to be heading off hunting somewhere and a hunt report is never filed? Why not?
Whatever, the reason. The information is missing and is worthy of an investigation.

Another excellent information source is how the PH/Outfitter conducts themselves in various forums like AH.

After tracking information over YEARS you can certainly see patterns. Hence, why a public forum is so helpful.
Someone like a "representative" or agent has an interest in the game. Take it into account, that's all.
Cross reference the information and keep gathering until you are satisfied.


I talked to references and they were actually useless to me. Perhaps my questions were not effective at eliciting the proper information.
That is why I think this linked thread is worth more than almost any other. It makes you think about what kind of question will actually elicit the type of information you need to make the right decision and get around the current set of euphemisms and cultural differences. ( PAC, Ranch, Canned, Put and Take, Free Range, low fence, high fence, conservancy, communal area, etc.)

JG add some of your better questions into this thread when you get a chance

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/better-questions-to-ask-when-looking-for-a-hunt….23825/


Figuring out the budget is one thing. Where you are spending that budget will make the difference in the end!

Have fun planning and hunting.
 

firehuntfish

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I talked to references and they were actually useless to me. Perhaps my questions were not effective at eliciting the proper information.

Good post BRICKBURN. Your comments and insight are well thought out as usual...

A quick thought in reference to where I quoted you.... I personally believe that client references are one of the most valuable components of the many tools available to use in one's research. However, I also believe that they are often the most misused tool. Quite obviously, every reference is going to say that they enjoyed their safari, had a great time, etc., That should be a foregone conclusion. But, that's not where the true value of contacting references lies. If you stop there, you are really missing the boat on some valuable information about the outfitter.

Client references are usually the last contacts that I make during the research process. When contacting a reference, don't bother asking if them IF had a good time. Ask them WHY they had a good time. What particular details stood out to them that made this experience special if any? Use their account to verify all of the promotional and statistical things that the outfitter, representative, or agent has said. Ask them if all that was represented to them was available and true to form on safari. Be specific as to what you are personally looking for on safari. For example, if trophy quality is important to you, ask them about their observations of the quality and quantity of game animals they encountered.... Ask them if they have been on other outfitted hunts before, and if so, how this experience compared to the others. I also think the most valuable references are the ones that have hunted with multiple outfitters. They can usually offer the most context for comparison.

Using reference information in this way elicits enormous value, at least for me. If you are just going to ask them if they had a good time, then you are wasting yours...
 

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