Open Sighted 45-70 in Africa

[sestoppelman]

ChrisG, I would not disagree with any of that.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Well this has all made for rather interesting reading. I too am rather new to this site but all I can say (and think of for that matter) is if the 45-70 was up to the task why was it not used in the heyday of the African safari?? Did Teddy R take one with him? I don't thing he did. In fact he favoured the 375 H&H over the 405win!!
Also if the 45-70 could be loaded hot enough in the marlin it might work in the biakal double rifle!!

 

[ChrisG]

Well this has all made for rather interesting reading. I too am rather new to this site but all I can say (and think of for that matter) is if the 45-70 was up to the task why was it not used in the heyday of the African safari?? Did Teddy R take one with him? I don't thing he did. In fact he favoured the 375 H&H over the 405win!!
Also if the 45-70 could be loaded hot enough in the marlin it might work in the biakal double rifle!!

I think the .45-70 has its place and I don't want to totally shoot it down as useless. Within its application it is a star, that is to say, a short range, hard hitting gun for thin skinned heavy game. I am very fond of the old girl but I would not be packing it for Africa. As to the 405, I believe Roosevelt's Son kermit used it on Rhino and it worked fine. It doesn't have the velocity of the 450/400 but it definitely has the sectional density and at 1900fps with a 400 grain bullet, it was not ideal but the Roosevelt Safari had several Professional Hunters on it and they were right there with their big doubles (i.e. Bill Judd carried a .577 NE, which by-the-way, failed to stop a big bull elephant with 4 shots to the head. The elephant then proceeded to skewer him and mash him to a pulp.) Shot placement is in fact king, but leaving yourself no margin of error is a fools errand and arrogant. Too many PHs in the early 1900's, even adequately armed, with years of experience, were trampled, gored and mauled because they left no room for error and threw caution to the wind.

 

[sestoppelman]

Well this has all made for rather interesting reading. I too am rather new to this site but all I can say (and think of for that matter) is if the 45-70 was up to the task why was it not used in the heyday of the African safari?? Did Teddy R take one with him? I don't thing he did. In fact he favoured the 375 H&H over the 405win!!
Also if the 45-70 could be loaded hot enough in the marlin it might work in the biakal double rifle!!

Be a pretty good trick for TR to use the .375 H&H... since it was not developed until AFTER TR's safari was over by 2 years!!

 

[Velo Dog]

I think the .45-70 has its place and I don't want to totally shoot it down as useless. Within its application it is a star, that is to say, a short range, hard hitting gun for thin skinned heavy game. I am very fond of the old girl but I would not be packing it for Africa. As to the 405, I believe Roosevelt's Son kermit used it on Rhino and it worked fine. It doesn't have the velocity of the 450/400 but it definitely has the sectional density and at 1900fps with a 400 grain bullet, it was not ideal but the Roosevelt Safari had several Professional Hunters on it and they were right there with their big doubles (i.e. Bill Judd carried a .577 NE, which by-the-way, failed to stop a big bull elephant with 4 shots to the head. The elephant then proceeded to skewer him and mash him to a pulp.) Shot placement is in fact king, but leaving yourself no margin of error is a fools errand and arrogant. Too many PHs in the early 1900's, even adequately armed, with years of experience, were trampled, gored and mauled because they left no room for error and threw caution to the wind.

I'm +1 with Sestoppelman on TR and the .375 H&H.
Furthermore, I am surprised to learn that 400 grain bullets were loaded in the .405 Winchester over 100 years ago.
Previously, I would have bet a large pizza that the only ammunition commonly available in .405 back then, would have been the 300 gr bullet at about 2200 feet per second.
I fired a double rifle in .405 on the local rifle range here and have always wanted a .405 since then (lever action or single shot would do fine) but, I surely would not expect any PH to put up with my sillyazz wanting to shoot a rhino with it.
It's not like they've quit making .500 Jeffery ammunition or anything like that.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Be a pretty good trick for TR to use the .375 H&H... since it was not developed until AFTER TR's safari was over by 2 years!!

Sorry about that. His big medicine gun was the .405 I thought it was the 375. Anyway back to the sectional density of the 45-70. Why not use a good quality .458 bullet from the chaps up the road from me at Kynoch!!!

 

[sestoppelman]

I'm +1 with Sestoppelman on TR and the .375 H&H.
Furthermore, I am surprised to learn that 400 grain bullets were loaded in the .405 Winchester over 100 years ago.
Previously, I would have bet a large pizza that the only ammunition commonly available in .405 back then, would have been the 300 gr bullet at about 2200 feet per second.
I fired a double rifle in .405 on the local rifle range here and have always wanted a .405 since then (lever action or single shot would do fine) but, I surely would not expect any PH to put up with my sillyazz wanting to shoot a rhino with it.
It's not like they've quit making .500 Jeffery ammunition or anything like that.

You're right Velo, back in that day, it was 300grs in the .405 WIN. And it was TR himself who killed rhino with his 1895 Win, same rifle I took to Africa this past summer.

 

[crs]

Here is a response from someone who has been-there-and-done-that with a number of rifles including the .45-70 and .45-90.
http://www.wideopenspaces.com/modern-45-70-africa-pics/

 

[Amon458]

I got a dumb question the 45-70 has obviously taken the big 5 and yes there are better choices of calibers but the same comment could be made against the oh so mighty and wonderful rainbow shooting 375. Out of the standed african hunting rounds its at the bottom of the food chain but most of the people here make it out to be thor's hammer. So as I have said earlier it really is just personal preferance.

 

[Ado]

I got a dumb question the 45-70 has obviously taken the big 5 and yes there are better choices of calibers but the same comment could be made against the oh so mighty and wonderful rainbow shooting 375. Out of the standed african hunting rounds its at the bottom of the food chain but most of the people here make it out to be thor's hammer. So as I have said earlier it really is just personal preferance.

The 375 ain't no rainbow cartridge.

But then with a rangefinder who cares about the tragectory...

Ado

 

[sestoppelman]

I got a dumb question the 45-70 has obviously taken the big 5 and yes there are better choices of calibers but the same comment could be made against the oh so mighty and wonderful rainbow shooting 375. Out of the standed african hunting rounds its at the bottom of the food chain but most of the people here make it out to be thor's hammer. So as I have said earlier it really is just personal preferance.

So what was the question?

 

[Amon458]

The question is why the hate for the 45-70 because there are better options but love for the 375 when there's almost as many better options

 

[Amon458]

The 375 ain't no rainbow cartridge.

But then with a rangefinder who cares about the tragectory...

Ado

Didn't mean rainbow as far as tragectory more like makes everyone happy.

 

[sestoppelman]

OK. I agree with that. The .45-70 as noted has done it all here and everywhere else. I think its sort of an irrational prejudice actually. It has its limitations and as long as one knows that and doesn't try to make it something it isn't, (like a long range round), why not? All the cartridges have limitations. The .375 gets a lot of good press because it is so versatile and can do most things required of a shoulder fired rifle, from deer to elephant.

 

[enysse]

The 375 H&H is no rainbow cartridge. It shoots fairly flat and can make a fine plains game rifle.

 

[edward]

in 2005 i killed an old dagga boy with one shot at 63 yards with my scope sighted contender in 45-70.i was shooting the cor-bon 405 gr penetrator bullet.the bullet went in the triangle on his right side and was found on the hide on his left side.one cut with a knife and we had a badly mangled bullet.4 death bellows followed within 90 secs of the shot.bull went 75 yards.was i lucky?i had checked with my ph long before the hunt and had his approval.this was with spear safaris and ernest dyson.ive hunted with him three different times and would again.

 

[Jimbob]

Of course the 45-70 will do it but if you want a lever gun and a little more punch there is always the 450 Alaskan.

 

[Tradmark]

Where i just hunting this summer there were no shots to be had outside the 45/70's wheelhouse so to speak. In fact there werent any outside of my 454's either except one on a black wildebeest. Sometimes id trade bigger for a faster aiming more portable package.

The point people have made is not that its the equal of the 458's etc but that it will outpenetrate the ole soft points out of those rifles and many of the doubles and the ever unreliable round nose solids. Use the modern monometal flatpoints and itll do anything asked of it on any animal. The question is not if itll work but whether ya want more knockdown power or a smaller quicker aiming more portable package. That is up to you

 

[Larry Mikelsen]

The .45-70 question always seems to prompt an interesting discussion. I have personally hunted Africa using a 1895 Marlin and Garrett 420 gr. Hammerhead ammo. I drove a Garrett 420 gr. clear through a Blue Wildebeest at 125 yards (left chest through the rump and the bullet kept going). I took a Zebra at 100 yards through both lungs and the bullet kept going. The fact that the .45-70 will kill any African game question has been answered in the affirmative. The 1895 was fun to hunt with, lightning fast for any follow up shots, and in my experience adequate out to 150 yards. Having said and done that, I would take my .375 H&H and .458 Lott for elephant and buffalo. The Lott most definitely gives you a leg up in those "Uh Oh" situations. I suggest answering the what to use is a question to ask your PH because he is the one that has to clean up any mess you may make. Having said that, there have been a number of "messes" made using .375s, .458s, .416 Rigbys, .458 Lotts, et al also. Shot placement is critical. JMO

 

[CAustin]

I took my Marlin 1895 to South Africa on my first hunt but never fired it at an animal. I took mine as a brush gun but never encountered so much brush that I needed it. I blew the shoulder completely off a deer a couple of years ago!