Modern Ammo in a Cordite Double

[hcrobertsonjr]

I'm interested in a WJ Jeffery 450/400 double. When looking at a photo of the lumps I see "Cordite" stamped on the plate. Based on my research I believe the rifle was built prior to the mid to late 1940's before Jeffery converted to modern ammo. Further research warns of the extreme pressure from modern ammo compared to the old cordite ammo being used in older rifles. The seller told me that the previous owner used Hornady and the current owner said he has fired two boxes of Hornady ammo without any issues. I would appreciate any advice I can get from you guys. Should I be worried?
Thanks in advance.

 

[ftrovato]

I suspect as long as you shoot lead core bullets with a temperature stable slow burning powder it will be fine.

BUT I would call a reputable expert like Rigby and ask if they can provide some advice.

 

[Huvius]

That sure has seen better days!
Before even worrying about ammo, what's the rest of the rifle look like?
I think it unlikely that with all that pitting on the flats the chambers will be pristine and who knows about the bore.

 

[grand veneur]

The condition of an old rifle is always the most important factor, especially when it involves a break action type. It does not matter if it was originally regulated only for cartridges loaded with Cordite. Cordite was a very fast-burning powder that generated high pressures, so the use of modern ammunition is not an issue, provided that the barrel diameter matches, very important in the case of an older double rifle caliber 450/400 Nitro Express. You have to pay more attention to the type of bullets that you want to use.

 

[Pondoro]

Yes..slug the barrels as barrel diameter varies among the .450/400´s... .408, .410, .411..

 

[Ray B]

I use a Rigby 470 that's 115 years old and powder selection is not an issue (with regard to safety, regulation is another issue). What IS an issue is bullet selection. Steel jacketed bullets and others that put stress on the bores are avoided. I advise reading Graeme Wright's book Shooting the British Double Rifle prior to any shooting you do with your rifle.

 

[grand veneur]

I also own an old DR from Webley & Scott built in 1909, regulated for a 90gr Cordite load, but the ammunition supplied with it indicates it was used with 100gr Cordite loads. I have shot without problems all sorts of ammo in it, including modern factory loads.

 

[hcrobertsonjr]

I appreciate all the comments. Here's a link to the site where the gun is posted. Plenty of photos. Overall it looks like it's in good condition. The seller also sent me a video demonstrating the action. Looked good. I read about regulation issues as a potential problem but like I mentioned the seller said the previous owner used it successfully in Africa using Hornady ammo. I guess I'm just a romantic. Read too many books by Hunter, Ruark and Capstick with their Rigby's, Purdy's, Holland's and even Jeffery's. Would love to take an old Dagga Boy with a piece of history.

Cheers.

450/400 WJ Jeffery

 

[Pondoro]

I hate to be the fly in the ointment, but as mentioned, the barrel flats have lots of pittings thats blued over. As mentioned, I would strongly suggest checking chamber and barrel condition and if the action is tight.. It also appear restocked wich detract value. Also have the barrels slugged to determine bullet diameter..

 

[hcrobertsonjr]

I hate to be the fly in the ointment, but as mentioned, the barrel flats have lots of pittings thats blued over. As mentioned, I would strongly suggest checking chamber and barrel condition and if the action is tight.. It also appear restocked wich detract value. Also have the barrels slugged to determine bullet diameter..

Many thanks!!! Appreciate your advice.

 

[Huvius]

I hate to be the fly in the ointment, but as mentioned, the barrel flats have lots of pittings thats blued over. As mentioned, I would strongly suggest checking chamber and barrel condition and if the action is tight.. It also appear restocked wich detract value. Also have the barrels slugged to determine bullet diameter..

Yeah man... that's a rough one.
Pitting everywhere even on the water table and breech face.
Restock is not great and one question is why a restock and THEN a monstrous pad added? Or is that some sort of slip on?
The barrels have been struck of all pitting, which must have been extensive as the Jeffery name and address had to be re-applied and not done to the original style.

There are worse things to drop $12K on I suppose, if the chambers and bores are excellent, and it may shoot just fine.
I would tell you to take advantage of the 3 day return policy and have it shipped to a reputable smith but my guess is that they would tell you to not bother and pass on this one.

 

[hcrobertsonjr]

Thanks to everyone who commented. I really do appreciate all the advice, especially since I don't have the knowledge and experience to pick up on the flaws mentioned. My hunt isn't until next fall so I'll have one made for me. I'm a lefty, so will be nice to have a left handed rifle. I'm waiting to hear back from Heym and Merkel on how long. Already heard back from Krieghoff but hoping the others come in under the 23k I was quoted.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Thanks to everyone who commented. I really do appreciate all the advice, especially since I don't have the knowledge and experience to pick up on the flaws mentioned. My hunt isn't until next fall so I'll have one made for me. I'm a lefty, so will be nice to have a left handed rifle. I'm waiting to hear back from Heym and Merkel on how long. Already heard back from Krieghoff but hoping the others come in under the 23k I was quoted.

A new Heym 88b or 89b, decent wood, border scroll PH model will push you over $30k today, closer to $35k+ and then engraving, higher grade wood, and other options will push that number upward still. They are amazing guns though, and they make true left handed rifles. I don’t think you’d have luck getting one made and delivered by next fall. If ordered today, maybe early 2028. They were quoting around 2-years as of a couple months back. I’ve had several Heyms and presently still own 4, ranging from 375 Flanged up to 500NE…so I’ll admit being a fan. I’ve had a 450/400 in the 88b and still own one in 89b, both superb rifles in every way. Owned a 470 in both 88b and 89b and both are with new owners that love them, same for the 88b 500NE I passed along.

You’d be hard pressed to have a bad time hunting a Heym. Ordering and having questions answered can prove difficult at times, but I do think the product is worth the hassle, and hope whatever has led to some of those issues resolves soon.

Krieghoff is also a solid rifle from a company known for consistent high quality firearms. You’ll hear folks talk about the automatic safety which also is the cocker/de-cocker for the rifle. It takes more thumb pressure than other rifles, but said to be the safest rifle in regards to unintended discharge. Some folks argue not as safe for speed to bring to battery when you need it. I think if you are used to running the gun and practice with it, if you are accustomed to the safety, should also prove a splendid rifle.

Fit is more important than safeties and engraving. As a left handed shooter, you’d be very smart to get a true left handed rifle with triggers, stock and action set up for your use.

Good luck and excited for you. Like that saying of envying the man who’s never been to Africa, because he has so much yet to see. For me, the saying holds true for double rifles too. I envy, you have so much yet to see, experience and learn.

Cheers and enjoy.

 

[hcrobertsonjr]

A new Heym 88b or 89b, decent wood, border scroll PH model will push you over $30k today, closer to $35k+ and then engraving, higher grade wood, and other options will push that number upward still. They are amazing guns though, and they make true left handed rifles. I don’t think you’d have luck getting one made and delivered by next fall. If ordered today, maybe early 2028. They were quoting around 2-years as of a couple months back. I’ve had several Heyms and presently still own 4, ranging from 375 Flanged up to 500NE…so I’ll admit being a fan. I’ve had a 450/400 in the 88b and still own one in 89b, both superb rifles in every way. Owned a 470 in both 88b and 89b and both are with new owners that love them, same for the 88b 500NE I passed along.

You’d be hard pressed to have a bad time hunting a Heym. Ordering and having questions answered can prove difficult at times, but I do think the product is worth the hassle, and hope whatever has led to some of those issues resolves soon.

Krieghoff is also a solid rifle from a company known for consistent high quality firearms. You’ll hear folks talk about the automatic safety which also is the cocker/de-cocker for the rifle. It takes more thumb pressure than other rifles, but said to be the safest rifle in regards to unintended discharge. Some folks argue not as safe for speed to bring to battery when you need it. I think if you are used to running the gun and practice with it, if you are accustomed to the safety, should also prove a splendid rifle.

Fit is more important than safeties and engraving. As a left handed shooter, you’d be very smart to get a true left handed rifle with triggers, stock and action set up for your use.

Good luck and excited for you. Like that saying of envying the man who’s never been to Africa, because he has so much yet to see. For me, the saying holds true for double rifles too. I envy, you have so much yet to see, experience and learn.

Cheers and enjoy.

Thank you. I had a Krieghoff .500 before the VC, so familiar with the auto lock feature. The balance on both were excellent. Excited can't describe what I'm feeling. I've been dreaming about this since I first read my dad's book "Hunter" by J. A. Hunter when I was 10 years old.

Thanks again.

Cheers

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I'm interested in a WJ Jeffery 450/400 double. When looking at a photo of the lumps I see "Cordite" stamped on the plate. Based on my research I believe the rifle was built prior to the mid to late 1940's before Jeffery converted to modern ammo. Further research warns of the extreme pressure from modern ammo compared to the old cordite ammo being used in older rifles. The seller told me that the previous owner used Hornady and the current owner said he has fired two boxes of Hornady ammo without any issues. I would appreciate any advice I can get from you guys. Should I be worried?
Thanks in advance. View attachment 772978

@hcrobertsonjr
The old cordite loads were very sensitive to temperature and in hot weather pressure could go up dramatically so loads were kept down to keep it safe in all weather.
With modern loads in sure they would keep it within the pressure constraints of old loads. The wouldn't want a rifle bowing up and having their arse sued.
In the old cordite cartridges 3031 was regularly used because of the very similar burn rate to cordite but with the temp stability. H4831 is another popular powder as it's a bulky powder and give a good fill ratio whilst keeping pressure down.
As long as you load to within the constraints of the regulated pressure you will be fine.
The only issue is regulation of your shots.
Your rifle appears to be regulated with 400gn bullets. Fortunately Woodleigh bullets are made to Kynoch specs of yore ( but bonded) and should regulate to your rifle at similar velocities. You may have to experiment to get it to regulate but you will be fine. Start low and work up until it regulates.
Remet it ain't a Ruger No1 so don't try and push the envelope.
Have fun and enjoy.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I appreciate all the comments. Here's a link to the site where the gun is posted. Plenty of photos. Overall it looks like it's in good condition. The seller also sent me a video demonstrating the action. Looked good. I read about regulation issues as a potential problem but like I mentioned the seller said the previous owner used it successfully in Africa using Hornady ammo. I guess I'm just a romantic. Read too many books by Hunter, Ruark and Capstick with their Rigby's, Purdy's, Holland's and even Jeffery's. Would love to take an old Dagga Boy with a piece of history.

Cheers.

450/400 WJ Jeffery

@hcrobertsonjr
I had a look at the pictures and there appears to be pitting on the face of the chamber around the breach as well as the flats. Whist the outside appears reasonable I would have it checked before purchasing it. To my eyes there also appears to be a gap between the breach and the head of the action. But I have no experience with double rifles but I would say checking them out would be similar to a sxs shotgun.
Bob

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

@hcrobertsonjr
The old cordite loads were very sensitive to temperature and in hot weather pressure could go up dramatically so loads were kept down to keep it safe in all weather.
With modern loads in sure they would keep it within the pressure constraints of old loads. The wouldn't want a rifle bowing up and having their arse sued.
In the old cordite cartridges 3031 was regularly used because of the very similar burn rate to cordite but with the temp stability. H4831 is another popular powder as it's a bulky powder and give a good fill ratio whilst keeping pressure down.
As long as you load to within the constraints of the regulated pressure you will be fine.
The only issue is regulation of your shots.
Your rifle appears to be regulated with 400gn bullets. Fortunately Woodleigh bullets are made to Kynoch specs of yore ( but bonded) and should regulate to your rifle at similar velocities. You may have to experiment to get it to regulate but you will be fine. Start low and work up until it regulates.
Remet it ain't a Ruger No1 so don't try and push the envelope.
Have fun and enjoy.
Bob

Bob,
Gonna respectfully disagree on the pressure differences and one’s ability to successfully sue the ammo manufacturer. I just witnessed factory hornady 450/400 3” (same box) shoot from 1920 fps to well over 2100fps out of another AH members VC.

As for the lawsuit you the shooter are taking the risk. The rifle is stamped and proofed for a cordite load. It’s never been proofed for a modern load/pressure. The proof is essentially a headstamp of the period. You ignored the head stamp no different than dropping a 50bmg shell into a 12ga, or 7mag into a 7-08. User error, ignorance and/or inexperience to the difference isn’t an excuse.

To the OP I’d strongly suggest NOT shooting factory ammo out of a vintage gun, especially that one. Given the pitting, I’d question the barrels and want to know barrel thickness and see what the pin-gauges say.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob,
Gonna respectfully disagree on the pressure differences and one’s ability to successfully sue the ammo manufacturer. I just witnessed factory hornady 450/400 3” (same box) shoot from 1920 fps to well over 2100fps out of another AH members VC.

As for the lawsuit you the shooter are taking the risk. The rifle is stamped and proofed for a cordite load. It’s never been proofed for a modern load/pressure. The proof is essentially a headstamp of the period. You ignored the head stamp no different than dropping a 50bmg shell into a 12ga, or 7mag into a 7-08. User error, ignorance and/or inexperience to the difference isn’t an excuse.

To the OP I’d strongly suggest NOT shooting factory ammo out of a vintage gun, especially that one. Given the pitting, I’d question the barrels and want to know barrel thickness and see what the pin-gauges say.

@Mtn_Infantry
With respect to your comments some I agree with some I don't.
Ammunition manufacturers have the responsibility of making sure their ammunition is SAFE for the rifles it is used in.
Hence you will not find 45-70 factory ammo that is not safe to use in an old trapdoor Springfield. The same with the 7X57 Mauser that came out for use in the 1893 Mauser and the Remington rolling block. All ammunition for the 7x57 has to be held to pressures that are safe for use in these old rifles.
Dang even when Remington legitimised the 35 Whelen they realised there was a plethora of old rifles chambered for the wildcat. Hence when they introduced it as a factory cartridge they kept the pressure down to 48,000psi so it was safe in every rifle.
Therefore I can't see a reason it's not the same for other old cartridges.
Yes it would be hard to sue because of a persons stupidity but stranger things have been tried.
With the condition of the said gun I personally wouldn't fire it until it was thoroughly checked by a competent gunsmith. With that much pitting on the breach facie would be sceptical. There also appears to be a lot of wear on the locking lugs under the barrel as well as the pitting.
If it was me buying it I would want to be able to return it if it didn't check out ok, but that's me.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob,
Gonna respectfully disagree on the pressure differences and one’s ability to successfully sue the ammo manufacturer. I just witnessed factory hornady 450/400 3” (same box) shoot from 1920 fps to well over 2100fps out of another AH members VC.

As for the lawsuit you the shooter are taking the risk. The rifle is stamped and proofed for a cordite load. It’s never been proofed for a modern load/pressure. The proof is essentially a headstamp of the period. You ignored the head stamp no different than dropping a 50bmg shell into a 12ga, or 7mag into a 7-08. User error, ignorance and/or inexperience to the difference isn’t an excuse.

To the OP I’d strongly suggest NOT shooting factory ammo out of a vintage gun, especially that one. Given the pitting, I’d question the barrels and want to know barrel thickness and see what the pin-gauges say.

@Mtn_Infantry
With respect to the velocity difference it's not unusual for factory ammo to have velocity variations in each box but I wouldn't expect it to be as much as you experienced.
On the other hand I have seen a person at the range lock up a Sako bolt that couldn't even be tapped open with a bock of wood. Said gentleman was using FACTORY Sellior and Bellot 6.5X55 ammo in his Sako 6.5x55. First shot sounded a bit different, 2nd one seemed to be louder and recoil was different so he thought he would try another shot. That shot locked the rifle up. Unfortunately I never found out what happy or the results. Even tho factories try their best to make consistent products there will always be some variation.
That's why I hand load and work up loads that are SAFE IN MY RIFLES.
Bob

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

@Mtn_Infantry
With respect to the velocity difference it's not unusual for factory ammo to have velocity variations in each box but I wouldn't expect it to be as much as you experienced.
On the other hand I have seen a person at the range lock up a Sako bolt that couldn't even be tapped open with a bock of wood. Said gentleman was using FACTORY Sellior and Bellot 6.5X55 ammo in his Sako 6.5x55. First shot sounded a bit different, 2nd one seemed to be louder and recoil was different so he thought he would try another shot. That shot locked the rifle up. Unfortunately I never found out what happy or the results. Even tho factories try their best to make consistent products there will always be some variation.
That's why I hand load and work up loads that are SAFE IN MY RIFLES.
Bob

What you’re describing is SAAMI. Without getting into the nitty gritty I’ll give you the spark notes.

Not all cartridges are SAAMI approved and not all approved cartridges are required to meet historical pressure load data. Additionally the application of SAAMI was initially American, and applied to a standardization of American Firearms Chambers and Ammunition. A historical non American made firearm wouldn’t be governed by this. Since you mention 45-70 it is in fact one of the calibers that has multiple standards based on historical firearms vs modern and why ammo manufacturers make different pressure loads (specified on the box). You’ll notice most of the large US Manufacturers have a Full Pressure 45-70 loads as well as a low or reduced pressure load. These loads are intended for potential use in non modern firearms. Another caliber you see this with is 30-06. You have M1 loads at different velocities and pressures vs the 30-06 loads most of us would shoot/hunt with.

CIP is the European version of SAAMI but tests and evaluates on different standards. Not all CIP approved cartridges are SAAMI approved and vice versa. It’s why American manufactured ammo can sometimes perform or meet different specs when compared to foreign manufactured (import) ammo like the S&B you described. There’s also a reason for all the warning labels on the ammo boxes and in firearm owners manuals. Ammo boxes tell you to consult the guns owners manual on pressures and/or seek out a gunsmith prior to using the ammo in your specific firearm.

But in this instance because of the age of the firearm and it not being made to conform to SAAMI specs, use would be “At Your Own Risk” and absolve Hornady of any liability.


Could you bring a lawsuit against Hornady? - 100%
Would it get dismissed? - Almost certainly
Do historical firearms often get used and damaged by modern ammo? - Yes, way more than most know


If you’d like to PM me I can give you more details, reasons and examples of why shooting a vintage firearm with modern ammo in no way exposes the ammo manufacture