Krieghoff in 500-416 for a first double?

[machinistbutler]

Wondering what your opinions would be in getting a previously owned one of these for a.first double .

I have a CZ in 416 Rigby , from what I have read the 500-416 is similar, and should be good for a Buffalo. I also have a 458 Lott that is shooting well that would work for Buffalo as well.

I have been reading too much about doubles on this forum, and seeing so many beauties posted it has really got me interested in trying one .

I am in Canada , so there may not be a huge amount to choose from. I have read great things about Heym, Verney Carron , and some good things about Merkel, and a few concerns about them double firing at times.

For those with a Krieghoff, or anyone with input on this caliber your reply would be much appreciated. I probably would want some type of dot sight ,or optic as my eyes seem to prefer a scope over the open sights.

I would probably be purchasing a previously owned rifle, as the price of these are quite daunting even for the plain Jane type rifles.


Thanks again

Craig

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I would advise you to handle one first. The Krieghoff's have a different way of cocking which happens on pushing the safety forward. It requires a bit more effort than a regular safety. Some hate it, some don't mind it at all. Only you can decide if it works for you.

 

[machinistbutler]

The only double I have ever seen in person was in Namibia, my PH 470 . With the darn covid here travel is impossible, our province is going into another huge lockdown . Schools all closed again. Travel to another area where they have a double in stock isn't allowed right now.

I am not in a rush however. A shop to the east has a Krieghoff, Holland royal and a little Merkel, Antonio zoli over under as well. I just can't travel there at the moment .

470 nitro has always been on my want list, it seems the people that have them don't like to part with them as I don't see them for sale often. There are quite a few 500 nitro, this caliber seems a bit too specific for stopping dangerous game. Merkel, Heym available in 500.

 

[Opposite Pole]

I have the K-gun in 470 and I’m very happy with it. I was deciding between 470 and 500 and picked the 470 as I had to pick one. I’m pretty sure I would have been equally happy with either one though. Yes the 500 produces more energy on both sides of the gun due to the extra 70gr of bullet weight but having shot both I’m sure that if you can shoot one you can shoot the other. I think a scoped 416 bolt and open sighted or red dot sigthed 470/500NE double would make a great combo. I’ve got two barrel sets - 470 and 9.3x74R. If you can get a second set made in a smaller calibre I strongly recommend it. It adds versatility and you get to hunt with your double far more outside of Africa and QLD/NT. If I understand correctely 500/416 was designed to duplicate 416Rigby in a break action gun. If it was my money I probably wouldn’t duplicate what I already have and go for 470 or 500. In DG double rifle hunting scenario I think there is nothing 416 can do that 4700/500 can’t do a bit better. Off course at the end of the day dead is dead and all of the above will reliably kill big game with correct projectile and shot placement. Stay calm and... carry a double.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Firstly Machinistbutler, a double is a beautiful thing and you are on the right track heading that way. On size, a 500 or a 470 is a large frame rifle, it will be heavy and not great to carry. Consider the 450/400 3", it will take anything, recoil is modest and in about the 10 pound bracket so easy to point and carry. It is becoming a very popular calibre, reasonable ammunition availability and cost.
As to double make, I am sold on Heym and sxs configuration. You can get a very nice 88B second hand, but the newer 89B's are not hitting the used market much yet.

 

[AZDAVE]

I have a Kgun in 500/416 that I like alot. I think that most any quality double is fine as your first double.
Mine came with a couple boxes of Hornaday softs and solids. The solids shot exactly to the sights. But the softs in one lot of ammo shot very bad. upon checking the velocity the softs were going almost 2500 FPS and we crossing by 5 inches. The solids were going 2298fps. I shot the softs to get the brass and have worked up loads for 400gr aframes and 400gr CEB solids that all group at the same POI.

Like @mdwest said you should get a chance to see how the rifle fits you and get familiar with the cocking/safety system. If it fits you and the price is right go for it.

 

[Muskox]

I am a huge fan. I used to own a Blaser S-2 and I liked it a lot, but it was kind of clunky. The safety system on the Krieghoff is the same as the Blaser with the cock/deckock feature.

I'd buy a Krieghoff as my first choice, and I'd personally rather have a 500/416 than another caliber.

If you can get Krieghoff to export it to you Krieghoff USA in Florida always has once fired 500/416 brass for sale for cheap.

 

[AZDAVE]

@Muskox Do you have a phone number for them? if so please PM it to me. I would be interested in buying some once fired brass.

 

[machinistbutler]

Ralf Martini has some beauties in stock. He has a Richter engraved Heym in 470 that Is so nice, but a bit more than I wanted to spend. He has many 500 as well, in Heym and Merkel.

There is the krieghoff in 470 in a shop a few hours.drive from here. It looks very.nice as well.

I cannot see any 450-400 for sale anywhere near me in Canada.

So many models and calibers,

 

[machinistbutler]

The beauty of a 470 Krieghoff big five to the east has extractors not ejectors. It was listed at a fair price , and is a beauty of a rifle, but I think for a double I would want ejectors.

 

[Red Leg]

So first if all, let's talk caliber. The 500/416 was created essentially to duplicate the .416 Rigby in a rimmed double format. If anyone tries to tell you such a caliber is insufficient for buffalo or elephant, you should politely suggest they try to get out more. I have a S2 with 500/416 barrels, and the rifle is a pleasure to shoot - with noticeably less recoil than my Birmingham made .470. Remember, as a client your job is to put the first bullet in exactly the right spot. My purely unscientific, but somewhat informed observations are that hurdle gets progressively more difficult with the size of the bore. However, if you wish a heavier rifle, the K-Gun will accommodate the heavier calibers. As a client, I personally have neither the need nor interest in a .500, But, if that is what you wish to carry, that caliber in the Krieghoff would be as transportable as any and better than many.

The safety system on a K-Gun (or a Blaser R8 or S2) is easy to master, quick, and makes the K-gun one of the two safest doubles on the market. I know three PH's who own and love them, and are always happy to see one in the hands of a client (assuming it isn't his first buffalo).

K-Guns have a well deserved reputation for accuracy and reliability. Their ergonomics are superb with a focus on good original design rather than mimicking an early 20th century English design.

I personally consider them superior to a VC or Merkel, and in the same general class as Heym. It likely will be more intrinsically accurate than any of them. It is also easily fitted with a red-dot sight of some form.

So, in my view - yes - a Krieghoff Big Five would be an excellent choice.

 

[machinistbutler]

Is there a reason some people would prefer extractors to ejectors? I would think ejectors would.be preferred.

The krieghoff 470 I was looking at is a beauty, priced at $15,000 Canadian. I am not sure if that price is good. It is used, appears new, comes with some brass and loaded rounds, and dies.

A Merkel 500 NE is listed at 10,000 Canadian, used but nice shape, case hardened receiver.

The Heyms are between 17-21,000 for a new and a few used . One is 470, for the 21,000, others are all 500s.

The 500-416 Krieghoff is around 11,000, used, with some fired Jameson brass and dies. Rifle is a beauty . Wating to hear if it has ejectors or extractors. I have a bunch of 416 A frames, solids and many boxes of 416 woodleighs , so this rifle would fit in nicely.

I priced out a new Merkel , around $11,000 Canadian brand new. I am not sure if this is the route to go. It would be the absolute base model.

 

[Red Leg]

Is there a reason some people would prefer extractors to ejectors? I would think ejectors would.be preferred.

The krieghoff 470 I was looking at is a beauty, priced at $15,000 Canadian. I am not sure if that price is good. It is used, appears new, comes with some brass and loaded rounds, and dies.

A Merkel 500 NE is listed at 10,000 Canadian, used but nice shape, case hardened receiver.

The Heyms are between 17-21,000 for a new and a few used . One is 470, for the 21,000, others are all 500s.

The 500-416 Krieghoff is around 11,000, used, with some fired Jameson brass and dies. Rifle is a beauty . Wating to hear if it has ejectors or extractors. I have a bunch of 416 A frames, solids and many boxes of 416 woodleighs , so this rifle would fit in nicely.

I priced out a new Merkel , around $11,000 Canadian brand new. I am not sure if this is the route to go. It would be the absolute base model.

I would not worry about extractors or ejectors. An argument can be made for both - it centers around quiet vs quick. It is more a matter of being comfortable with the manual of arms of your eventual rifle on the reload than an inherent advantage.

The Heym is a popular traditional gun and the Krieghoff is a popular non-traditional rifle. As an S2 owner, I am well past the need to conform to what makes the traditionalists happy.

I personally would much prefer a lightly used K-gun to a new Merkel or VC.

That 500/416 Krieghoff sounds like the one I personally would buy.

 

[machinistbutler]

Thanks Red Leg. Both of the Krieghoffs look stunning.

I have read a bit during my research that some say a 416 has no business being in a double rifle. Seems like an ass comment.

I will see if Ralf Martini gets back to me today on some questions I have asked. He replied quickly to my first terribly worded inquiry into some of his guns. I wasn't really sure how to ask what I wanted, couldn't put it into words correctly, and he responded with all the answers I was looking for .

I just want a reliable double, looking good doesn't hurt either.

 

[Opposite Pole]

In regards to extractors vs ejectors, my K-gun is fitted with what Krieghoff calls IES (intelligent ejector system). Break the rifle while it’s cocked and the spent shells eject, break the rifle uncocked and the shells are extracted. Best of both worlds.

I chose the K-gun over Heym due to the safety feature. Being used to my R8 I just cannot get comfortable with carrying a loaded rifle and rely on traditional safety. Perhaps it’s all in my head but it is a great mental comfort to me (and those who hunt with me). More and more manufacturers are bringing out guns with such system, it is safer.

 

[sierraone]

The only double I have ever seen in person was in Namibia, my PH 470 . With the darn covid here travel is impossible, our province is going into another huge lockdown . Schools all closed again. Travel to another area where they have a double in stock isn't allowed right now.

I am not in a rush however. A shop to the east has a Krieghoff, Holland royal and a little Merkel, Antonio zoli over under as well. I just can't travel there at the moment .

470 nitro has always been on my want list, it seems the people that have them don't like to part with them as I don't see them for sale often. There are quite a few 500 nitro, this caliber seems a bit too specific for stopping dangerous game. Merkel, Heym available in 500.

@machinistbutler ...I am not a double hunter although I do own one 9.3x74 R Chapuis. I would suggest to you to plan a trip to either DSC or SCI in January. You will be able to see every double rifle made from fairly inexpensive to very expensive to include virtually all calibers. You will have a great time and also increase your knowledge base immensely. Good Luck.

Since you are already talking to @Red Leg , you have already picked a great place to start.

 

[machinistbutler]

@machinistbutler ...I am not a double hunter although I do own one 9.3x74 R Chapuis. I would suggest to you to plan a trip to either DSC or SCI in January. You will be able to see every double rifle made from fairly inexpensive to very expensive to include virtually all calibers. You will have a great time and also increase your knowledge base immensely. Good Luck.

If travel is allowed I would love to see that show.

There was just a Johan Fanzoj double for auction here in Edmonton, had 470, 375, 300 and a shotgun barrel set. It was stunning, probably too nice to hunt with. It was an over under not a.side by side. I bid on it up to about ten, I think it sold for 16,500. Can't imagine what it cost new. It was made for a lefty though. Initials in gold were OLAS, there was a Krieghoff multi barrel over under set up with those Initials in gold as well .

 

[machinistbutler]

Happened on a Merkel 140 ae in 470, ejectors , with two sets of stocks and forends. Grade 8 wood on the one set. It has fired a box and a half of shells, but still appears new.

I couldn't resist inquiring and I received quick answers to my questions it has to be shipped across the country , so will take a while to get here.

It isn't a Heym or a Krieghoff, but it is a beauty and I am very excited.

Craig

 

[Opposite Pole]

Enjoy!

 

[jdemocko]

The Krieghoff 500/416 was my very first introduction to the double rifle world. Some years ago, Me and a buddy went on Buffalo cull hunt in Australia with Simon Kyle-Little. He had the 500/416 and a bunch of bullets from Krieghoff. To say we had a blast was an understatement. That gun will drop anything you properly shoot. It was a right handed gun and I shot it from the left side all week and had no problems.