Is civil war possible in America

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by D.M.V, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. USMA84DAB

    USMA84DAB AH Senior Member

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    WOW! I missed alot re-reading Boddington last night!

    To permit you to frame my comments I am a 21 year Army veteran of:
    - 10 years of active duty - 4 years at the Uncle Sam's Community College (United States Corps of Cadets), scout platoon leader and troop XO in West Germany, then S-4 for 3/3 ACR
    - a year of reserve service as an S-4 for a military intelligence battalion
    - 8 years of national guard - combined arms battalion HHC commander during federal deployment to Djibouti, 35ID G-3 planner
    - several years as a contractor writing brigade, division, and corps operational orders for use by G-3, US Army

    I currently teach at a church high school (math, German, history, religion, firearms basics, outdoor ed, archery). The pay is laughable because it is an enrollment school (we take anyone who will pay the tuition, and some who can't via scholarship, just to whip some Jesus on any kid we can) vs. an admittance school (IF we think you are cool enough, we will let you pay our crazy high tuition so you can feel like you are better than everyone else). It is a calling like Soldiering, so with my retirement pay I can squeak by each month.

    At USMA my class was issued Mao's little red book and Marx' communist manifesto. We actually studied our enemy in order to understand them and better be able to defeat them. Little did I know, I would one day be locked in hand-to-hand combat ideologically in my own hometown. I see the best way to fight the ongoing cold war is to try and make Godly walking young Americans. I don't want them to fall for the communist manifesto being poured down the throat of those who are brainwashed at Caesar's schools, and then sent on to the Marx schools of brainwashing (your normal/local universities).

    If one re-visits the congressional record, circa 10JAN63, the communist party goals for conquering the USA were read into the register. Boys, they have and are doing one hell of a job at checking the blocks. Communists don't worry about out-voting their opponents - they roll into a location, gather the uncooperative police, the pastors, the teachers, maybe the mayor, and they shoot them in the head. While we may have some socialists in play (communists with patience - they try to assume power inside the existing legal system), have no doubt that the COMMUNISTS are there, methodically and patiently checking off the "To Do" list. Let's see how they are doing:

    CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS
    1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
    2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
    3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
    4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
    5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
    6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
    7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
    8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev’s promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
    9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
    10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
    11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
    12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
    13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
    14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
    15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
    16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
    17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers’ associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
    18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
    19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
    20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.
    21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
    22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to “eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms.”
    23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. “Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art.”
    24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them “censorship” and a violation of free speech and free press.
    25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
    26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.”
    27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a “religious crutch.”
    28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state.”
    29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
    30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the “common man.”
    31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the “big picture.” Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

    32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture–education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
    33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
    34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
    35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
    36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
    37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
    38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
    39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
    40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
    41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
    42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use [“]united force[“] to solve economic, political or social problems.
    43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
    44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
    45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court
    Read more at https://www.beliefnet.com/columnist...essional-record-1963.html#Cff0OhuZEPSrTpwK.99

    I bold-faced the ones I can easily see total accomplishment or significant progress.

    My point in diving into the heavy political ideology is that while our governmental system is full of practicing socialists wanting to make more and more useful idiots that want to vote for a living, there are plenty of rabid communists waiting in the wings to seize the reins when the time is right.

    At this point, being a Christian white male who is a veteran with a service dog for PTSD, I reckon my odds are 50/50 that I will see the pearly gates after a 0230 door battering party hits my house because some soccer mom was scared about their kids' teacher who has guns, and besides, he didn't give buttercup an "A" for showing up for school sometimes, so Red Flag is the answer!

    I don't see us passing through the next election unscathed - if Trump stays in office, the left will openly revolt (Ferguson on steroids). If the dead and illegal aliens (kiss my fourth point of contact, NY city) vote one of the two dozen leftists clowns into office, they will advance the communist agenda to force the kinetic exchange of pleasantries. I am already saying my prayers for the nation, but self-servingly asking God to hold off the chaos until after my safari to RSA next year (June).

    All of the veterans I see/associate with are worried and have been laying in food, ammo, beans, bandaids - buying retirement "farms" away from population centers. I am doing my best to back away from the impending freight train wreck so that I am not crushed by one of the derailing/bouncing boxcars. I listen to Red Leg and accord value to his comments given his flag officer access to the inner machinations of the big green machine. However, when I look at the daily fire hose of (in theological terms) the goat team's effort to destroy all God has made (in particular the family), I see very few happy days in Flatrock coming.

    I hope I am wrong, but my forecast is that the tree of Liberty is fixin' to be refreshed here in short order.

    These comments/my $.02 worth are solely my own and do not reflect the opinion of the AH site or staff. YMMV.
     
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  2. lwaters

    lwaters BRONZE SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    Yes if you research their posts it is usually a complete lie or taken out of context. I really believe foreign governments are behind a lot of it. They can post a complete lie about a political issue and then the Facebook addicts take it and share it. I find this to be true on both sides. They actually do just what the foreign power wants. I hardly ever share a political post.
     
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  3. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    I don't want to respond directly to any members with respect to their reviews of the nation's march to war in the 1850's. But some of this is just not entirely accurate. Obviously, it is the subject of enormous research and shelves of historical literature beginning almost immediately after Appomattox. Unlike many societies, the aftermath of our internal conflict was not just written by the victors. And though Reconstruction left lasting social damage (primarily with regard to race relations), generally the aftermath of the war was remarkably benign. In what other country would the "Lost Cause" mythology be allowed to blossom and become a major fixture of the losing side.

    And anything I write just scratches the surface of this area of study. But the basic framework is pretty much accepted historical fact.

    First of all, we need to dispel this nonsense of a "Federal Government" acting as an independent entity in a dictatorial fashion prior to secession. After all, Southern representatives, both in the senate and house, and often the Presidency were part of that government. Secondly, slavery did play an important role in the actual rupture. The expanding country was caught up in a continuing political struggle as new states were added. The compromise of 1850 temporarily resolved the slave question for those areas annexed through the Mexican War. However, Southern States soon realized that the Kansas Nebraska Act of 1854 spelled the end of Southern States being able to protect their "peculiar institution". That act left the decision of slave or free up to the popular will of the citizens of the new state (novel concept). Outside the wealthy landowners in the South, slavery was fast loosing support within the country (as it already was world-wide). Even among the yeoman farmer class in the South who did not own slaves and who paradoxically would make up the line infantry of the Confederate Army. It was apparent to Southern legislators that very soon, a clear majority of non-slave states would emerge capable of federally ending the institution. The election of Lincoln was simply the inevitable result of that growing political strength. Mathematics is indeed inexorable.

    "State Rights" obviously did play a part in the decisions the Southern States made in the following weeks. It gave the theoretical political basis for the notion of secession as an alternative. But it was the issue of slavery that was driving the train and the search for those options. Imposing mythical interstate tariffs or restricting international trade are red herrings at best or outright nonsense created by apologists in recent years.

    And what Northern slave owners? By 1858, nearly all Northern States had already abolished slavery - Vermont was the first in 1777 - through the popular will of the people exercised through their representatives in state legislatures. Sure there were some earlier in the nation's history, but none by 1858.

    The election of Lincoln was the catalyst. The new Republican Party was dedicated to abolition, and though Lincoln had no intention of immediately forcing its abolition, from the perspective of the Southern large land owning (and thus slave owning) class, its end was inevitable. The case could be and was made that the right of secession was implicit in the voluntary approval of the constitution by the various states. However, that is a legal theory that ran smack up against a strong plurality of citizens who decided preserving the Union, by force as necessary, was worth resorting to war.

    The Southern ruling class was fortunate that the act of compelling that reunification required potential occupation of Southern states. That was enough for the vast majority of non slave owning farmers to take up arms to “defend” their homes. Regardless that the South did indeed precipitate an actual conflict. A true war resulted between two regions of the country. It really wasn’t a civil war in the classic definition of the term.

    For political reasons, such as trying to keep border states like Kentucky in the union, the issue of slavery was put on the back burner. The Emancipation Proclamation following the battle of Sharpsburg (Antietam for you Yankees) was indeed a cold blooded political calculation that had everything to do about preventing British or French recognition of the South. And it worked. But the 13th Amendment to the Constitution in 1864, which the finger pointers seem to always conveniently overlook, had everything to do about ending slavery everywhere in the US.

    Look, I am a proud Southerner. One of my ancestors who occupies the highest place of honor in my personal Valhalla died leading his brigade at the Peach Orchard on the second day at Gettysburg. William Barksdale - google him if interested. I am sure that I too would have joined the colors. But I am wise enough to admit that I am glad he and they failed. An independent South would have looked a whole lot like South Africa. Let’s look at how that is working out. And the North, together with the Midwest, would have looked much like any European industrial state and probably would not have had the power to eventually stop a Hitler or win the Cold War.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019

  4. wesheltonj

    wesheltonj AH Elite

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    Well maybe. We are already chest deep in the culture war. Most folks see it, but don't really have an idea of what the "Progressives" are really up to. Google Justice Democrats & Civil Rights Corps. Just today AOC is out with we need to close down the prison system. The number are against conservative or traditional thought and will continue to become worse. Luckily, the "conservative justices" now outnumber the "liberal justices" on the high court. What do the progressive want to do, take a page right from FDR and stack the court, so they can't lose.

    What needs to be done, is get more conservatives into education - primary, secondary and especially Community College and University level, then conservatives might have a chance.

    Will the culture war become a civil war, possible but not probable.
     
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  5. lwaters

    lwaters BRONZE SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    Oh but will they end abortion. I seriously doubt it. More minority's are aborted than born. It will be interesting what will become of that issue. My quess nothing.
     

  6. Mort Hill

    Mort Hill GOLD SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Only way the left knows how to fight. Two thumbs and a cell phone.
     

  7. kevin masters

    kevin masters BRONZE SUPPORTER AH Enthusiast

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    That's really depressing because I am technologically challenged , but I can hold my own with a rifle. LOL
    :W M16::W Rifle::W Rocket Launcher::W Sharp Shooter::W Shooting Uzi::W Shooting::W Shotgun:
     
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  8. 375 Ruger Fan

    375 Ruger Fan AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Many, many historians have studied the US Civil War and even they can't agree to the main cause. State's rights, slavery, preserving the Union are high on the list and are inter-related.

    @MS Hitman, I agree with you completely that the buildup to war took much longer than a month (BTW, I didn't say that it did take a month, I said South Carolina seceeded one month after Lincoln was elected). As @Red Leg mentioned, the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854 was a triggering event. You can go back to 1952 to the publishing of "Uncle Tom's Cabin" or further back to 1820 to the Missouri Compromise. It didn't help things that two of our worst presidents, Pierce and Buchanan were in office during the lead up to war. Better and bolder leadership could have helped to overt war.

    One thing I completely disagree with you on is Lincoln's view on slavery. Read Lincoln's "House Divided Speech" of 1858. (http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/house.htm) Read the Lincoln-Douglas debates. First and foremost, Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union and avoid war. Lincoln was an astute politcian and knew how and when to pick his battles. Lincoln, while not supporting the Corwin Amendment (a failed piece of legislation), he did not oppose it either.

    When Lincoln won the election in Nov. 1860, he did take office until Mar 1861. The senior military officer of the day, General Winfield Scott, was concerned that the Democrats would attempt to assassinate Lincoln and stationed a heavy military presence in Washington, DC.

    In his 1861 inaugural address (http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/1inaug.htm), Lincoln very matter of factually told Southerns that they could keep their slaves (I am summarizing this quite a bit) and yet the south still seceded and attacked or confiscated Federal forts and munitions.

    In a famous 1862 letter to Horace Greeley, Lincoln explained the reasons for his action and his long-held feelings on slavery and equality.

    “My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.
    “I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.”

    As far as your comments on Grant, he had been discharged from the army and was a civilian when the war broke out. He viewed the attacks on Federal forts as an insurrection and out of patriotism to the Union, fought to get a commission to return to duty in the Union Army. The rest is.............history.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019

  9. edward

    edward GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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  10. Dr Ray

    Dr Ray AH Elite

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    The whole world has changed recently.
    Nothing is out of consideration now!
    Very sad state of affairs throughout the world.
     
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  11. Ridge Runner

    Ridge Runner AH Enthusiast

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    The unit was a Corps HQ G-3 Ops.,Separate Section. The time frame was in the 70's.

    At the time our primary subject of interest was on a particular country.

    Literally: Overnight, the country of primary focus suddenly changed, to another country and its leader.

    As this latter situation was developing, the question arose and a discussion was started. Hence, the "hypothetical", "theoretical". As we awaited for more Intel on the country at hand.

    Reference to my comments the rank and file would not take arms against family, childhood friends and neighbors. But would (" theoretically") against politians that so ordered such actions.

    Perhaps you are familiar with this phrase: :.......starting a war is easy. It's stopping it once it's started is the hard part......'.

    I don't know when you served, did your CGSC, and War College, nor how old you are. By your avatar, I would guess you were born in the mid to late 80's(?).

    I grew up in the 60's. Watched the assassinations of both Kennedy's and Dr. King, live on a black and white TV. And the aftermath that followed.

    The United States was a purverbial, geographical, ideological, political, and racial powder keg.

    Reference to my comments to "various variables" and "several plausible solutions".

    Apologies, for having omitted the quotation marks around "paper exercise". This was just a "topic of conversation" as we waited for Intel on the current situation. However, on "slow days", the subject of another US "Civil War", was a "periodic" "topic of conversation" for a while, then other " more relative" "current events" type topics of conversation help pass the time on "slow days".

    In my day, at that time, the plan to deal with a "Civil War" scenario: Do whatever has to be done so it doesn't happen!

    The original post asked, is civil war possible in America.

    Definitive short answer: Yes!

    Better short answer: Yes! And the ones with the guns and ammo will win!.......the battles.... the ''vultures" will win the war!.....

    Red Leg, no offense intended, but by your post I can only assume you hold an officer rank, as we have, to my knowledge, actually never met. As I can take no offense that you can only assume I (long since retired) hold an officer rank. The hard way, 10+ years enlisted, 14+ years officer.

    No offense toward any member, supporter, benefactor, sponsor, or visiter to this site. But this sight, in accordance to military standards and definition is unsecure.

    That said, I will not provide direct answers to your questions: what unit? and where was that? A soldier was either there or they weren't.
     

  12. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    Thanks for the compliment. I was born in 1952 and retired as a Major General - all active duty. Those assignments ran the gambit from typical combat arms, working with CIA/DIA, major four-star commands, and the Pentagon (where I participated in annual war plan reviews as a general officer). My assignments are public record - happy to provide you any of them.

    While the US Army is prepared to provide support to the National Guard, the Army does not conduct war-planning to fight a civil war. No unit to which I was assigned or commanded and in no military school I ever attended did we exercise or plan for such a role. In fact, I think it irresponsible to imply the army does. What junior officers might speculate in their free time hardly counts.

    I think it should be obvious to anyone why the US military is so careful about such things. Few democracies are going to collectively sleep well at night if they believe their own Army is prepared to intervene directly in some domestic dispute. That is what happens in the Third World. It is why we have concepts like posse comitatus.

    That said, and as it always has, the US Army will do what it is ordered to do by a duly constituted government to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019

  13. tarbe

    tarbe AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    Just for the record Joe...not for one second did I ever think you were ~40 years old!! :D:ROFLMAO::p
     
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  14. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    Well damn. I was feeling pretty good there for a while. :(:cry:
     
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  15. Tokoloshe Safaris

    Tokoloshe Safaris SPONSOR Since 2017 AH Enthusiast

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    My wife and I visit the states for about 3 weeks once a year. I see a big change each visit! I do not know if a civil war is coming, but I sure see people, normal, intelligent people from many walks of life preparing. My wife who was born in Zimbabwe cannot believe what she sees & hears happening. One thing that I find very sad is when we visit we usually attend weekend braais (bbq) now do to polarizing politics people who were once friends do not even speak to each other. Is this what it was like when the "first Civil War took Place"? Or even worse when the "War for independence" took place?

    As we were leaving the states this year, we heard on the news that now in Colorado any female over the age of eleven could legally go topless in public! I immediately turned off my GPS which has a built in dash cam, I wanted to make sure I would not be in possession of "child pornography"!! Seriously, have the judges of the courts of the U.S. gone mad?

    I will not comment on our political situation in Zim, but one thing I can say is that a person of any race is probably safer here day or night, than they would be in "some parts" of the U.S.A.. I do not write this to defame the U.S., it is just a disturbing fact. Will things get better here probably not.



    At least I saw that Jane Fonda was arrested yesterday and that she has moved to Washington, one small step in the right direction!
     
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  16. Royal27

    Royal27 AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Yes

    Not all, but many...
     
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  17. D.M.V

    D.M.V AH Fanatic

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    Has anyone checked out the drudge report lately. Ive checked everyday for the last few weeks and they've gone totally anti trump. It's sad. Like I said in a earlier post. Trump disrupts the enormous grifter operation that's gone on forever and actually if you connect the dots and analyze the situation you can see how deeply entrenched this monster is. The left has always been nasty but the outright over the top lies parroted by them in the media is at a new level plus the limp beta male republicans who come out for impeachment is really sickening
     
    Hogpatrol, LivingTheDream and edward like this.

  18. Royal27

    Royal27 AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

    Joined:
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    Critical thinking is more rare these days than a logical and reasonable judge, and thus, the issue.

    "David Mamet had a famous saying, essentially: …‘in order for democrats, liberals, progressives et al to continue their illogical belief systems they have to pretend not to know a lot of things’… By pretending ‘not to know’ there is no guilt, no actual connection to conscience. Denial of truth allows easier trespass"

    Sundance
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
    BWH, D.M.V, Hogpatrol and 2 others like this.

  19. Wheels

    Wheels AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Obama installed 329 federal judges. America will be dealing with their decisions for the next 30+ years.



    There are currently 870 authorized Article III judgeships: nine on the Supreme Court, 179 on the courts of appeals, 673 for the district courts and nine on the Court of international trade. (per Wikipedia)

    As of 9/30/19, Trump has appointed, and the Senate has confirmed 152 Federal Judges. Two on SCOTUS, 43 Circuit Judges, 105 District Judges, two to international trade. There are currently 59 judges that have been nominated and going through the process of confirmation. Trump's nominees for Judges are Constitutionalist's. By the time Trump's first term is up, he will have appointed over 25% of federal judges.

    Law by judicial edict should slow down as originalists are confirmed. The process of rotating out Obama's judges will be a long time coming.
     
    BWH, D.M.V and Royal27 like this.

  20. Brent in Az

    Brent in Az AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
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    I am deeply concerned about those that are turning on Trump, and buying into this whistle blower impeachment fiascos. Fox news has been trending in that direction lately. The deep state is pulling out all the stops. A New York Judge just ordered Trump to release 8 years of financials to the House of representatives. Trump ticked off the war mongers and military industrial complex, by pulling out of Syria.

    I am not swayed one bit by the propaganda. Trump is doing what I hired him for.

    If the Senate Republucans turn on Trump, it will be the end of the Reublican party, and there will be millions of very angry voters. Myself included. I would glady go Barbarian on the Democrat party.
     
    D.M.V likes this.

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