Is civil war possible in America

Red Leg

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I am deeply concerned about those that are turning on Trump, and buying into this whistle blower impeachment fiascos. Fox news has been trending in that direction lately. The deep state is pulling out all the stops. A New York Judge just ordered Trump to release 8 years of financials to the House of representatives. Trump ticked off the war mongers and military industrial complex, by pulling out of Syria.

I am not swayed one bit by the propaganda. Trump is doing what I hired him for.

If the Senate Republucans turn on Trump, it will be the end of the Reublican party, and there will be millions of very angry voters. Myself included.
You will find a lot of people like me who believe abandoning the Kurds, whose only sin was to be our staunch allies against ISIS for nearly two decades, to the tender mercies of the Turks, who would like nothing better than to exterminate them, one of the more faithless things done by our country in our lifetimes.
 

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You will find a lot of people like me who believe abandoning the Kurds, whose only sin was to be our staunch allies against ISIS for nearly two decades, to the tender mercies of the Turks, who would like nothing better than to exterminate them, one of the more faithless things done by our country in our lifetimes.
How to win friends and influence people! :(
 

Brent in Az

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You will find a lot of people like me who believe abandoning the Kurds, whose only sin was to be our staunch allies against ISIS for nearly two decades, to the tender mercies of the Turks, who would like nothing better than to exterminate them, one of the more faithless things done by our country in our lifetimes.
I am not in favor of abandoning them either. It is not a wise decision by Trump, as it left the door open for Turkey. The Turks and Kurds have been at war for 200 years. I think it's about time for them to end the feud.
 

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I am not in favor of abandoning them either. It is not a wise decision by Trump, as it left the door open for Turkey. The Turks and Kurds have been at war for 2000+ years. I think it's about time for them to end the feud.

Fixed it for you

All this region has known is war. If it isn't one tribe fighting another one it is crossing a border to fight someone else. It all depends on who is in power at the time as far as who wins and who looses. Give it a few years and the rolls will be reversed.

I highly doubt that the feud will ever end, it is just the way of their culture.
 

Brent in Az

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Fixed it for you

All this region has known is war. If it isn't one tribe fighting another one it is crossing a border to fight someone else. It all depends on who is in power at the time as far as who wins and who looses. Give it a few years and the rolls will be reversed.

I highly doubt that the feud will ever end, it is just the way of their culture.
Someone needs to change that culture. Sanctions by Trump on the Erdrogan regime is not the answer.
 

Red Leg

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Fixed it for you

All this region has known is war. If it isn't one tribe fighting another one it is crossing a border to fight someone else. It all depends on who is in power at the time as far as who wins and who looses. Give it a few years and the rolls will be reversed.

I highly doubt that the feud will ever end, it is just the way of their culture.
Seriously? That is like saying Germany invaded France because they are both Christian.
 
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Sykes-Picot and other agreements in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, by European powers have provided a major disservice to peoples throughout Africa and Asia. The Kurds are one of many peoples that fall in this category.

If news reports are correct, there were less than 1,000 American's in Syria. Probably around 100. If these numbers are correct then this is not a true fighting force, more of an advisory group.

Yes the Kurds have been good allies to America. They have also shared mutual enemies with America during the past twenty years. With ISIS defeated in Syria, should America stay around and become a human shield for the Kurds? If the Kurds would stop their terrorists acts in Turkey, would Turkey go into Syria to shut down the staging areas of terrorists attacks into Turkey?

America has had a fighting force in south Asia and the ME for 18 years. When do wars end? Trump promised to end perpetual war for America. The American people evidently agreed with him.

It is difficult dealing with America when foreign policy is subject to change every four years.
 

Red Leg

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Sykes-Picot and other agreements in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, by European powers have provided a major disservice to peoples throughout Africa and Asia. The Kurds are one of many peoples that fall in this category.

If news reports are correct, there were less than 1,000 American's in Syria. Probably around 100. If these numbers are correct then this is not a true fighting force, more of an advisory group.

Yes the Kurds have been good allies to America. They have also shared mutual enemies with America during the past twenty years. With ISIS defeated in Syria, should America stay around and become a human shield for the Kurds? If the Kurds would stop their terrorists acts in Turkey, would Turkey go into Syria to shut down the staging areas of terrorists attacks into Turkey?

America has had a fighting force in south Asia and the ME for 18 years. When do wars end? Trump promised to end perpetual war for America. The American people evidently agreed with him.

It is difficult dealing with America when foreign policy is subject to change every four years.
Yes, there are indeed a host of unresolved imperial legacies at work across the ME. Should the US act as a trip wire between Turkey and the Kurds in perpetuity? Of course not. However, abandoning that role (along seemingly with our successful effort to limit the Russian ambitions in the Levant) with apparently neither coordination nor warning is to my mind boggling.

It is this sort of impulsive behavior that will lose Trump that desperately needed 12% who held their nose and voted for him over a Democratic rival 2016.

I mean, good Lord, his response when questioned about it was “(the Kurds) didn’t help us with Normandy.” I am not sure if it is worse that he thinks I am that stupid or he may be.
 
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Wheels

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Yes, there are indeed a host of unresolved imperial legacies at work across the ME. Should the US act as a trip wire between Turkey and the Kurds in perpetuity? Of course not. However, abandoning that role (along seemingly with our successful effort to limit the Russian ambitions in the Levant) with apparently neither coordination nor warning is to my mind boggling.

It is this sort of impulsive behavior that will lose Trump that desperately needed 12% who held their nose and voted for him over a Democratic rival.

I mean, good Lord, his response when questioned about it was “they didn’t help us with Normandy.” I am not sure if it is worse that he thinks I am that stupid or he may be.
The way Trump handled the announcement was typical of Trump. Impetuous and in this instance it was done poorly.

It seems as though Trump is looking at alternatives other than military to deal with Turkey. How those work, if needed, will be interesting to find out.

“These are very powerful sanctions. We hope we don’t have to use them. But we can shut down the Turkish economy if we need to,” the Treasury chief told reporters.


What is the appropriate amount of time for America to protect and support the Kurds in Syria?

America has a national debt of $22t. $7t has been spent on military efforts and nation building in the ME and South Asia since 2001. What is the appropriate amount of time to continue spending money and putting our military in harms way?

$1trillion, should have been enough to teach Al-Qaeda and the Taliban a lesson. $6t is about $20,000 of debt for every man woman and child in America. How much debt do we leave our grandkids, to try to build a democracy in places that are undeserving of governing themselves?

I have been a "hawk" all of my life until the last few years. I am tired of my country being the worlds policeman. I am tired of my kids being burdened with the debt of our poor decisions. I am tired of all the graft in the "war machine". I am weary!

The way Trump announced this was less than desirable. In the long run, I still feel the decision was correct.
 

Royal27

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Should we send troops to Hong Kong? I mean they like us and all. :love:
 

lwaters

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We have a nutron bomb everything from Israel to Pakastain should be wiped out. Believe me they would vdo it to us.
 

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In this whole situation the only thing that gives me hope is when trump tells them to go take a jump in a lake. Ha
So you want to abandon Hong Kong too? :LOL:
So to chime in on some things I've read about this subject. We are at work in a way in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is Chinas route to western capital markets and through that proxy is selling bad paper to mutual funds on wall street and using the fiduciary responsibility laws against us. Also a majority of US federal government employees pension funds are invested in Chinese national security firms if you can believe that. Who the hell ever authorized that should be tried for treason and hanged. There's a lot to unpack in the above statement so if you already know or need to look into it. Do some research and lets continue the discussion. This has been a really great thread guys. One of the things I love about AH is all the cool knowledgeable people on here and we can have great discussions about anything. I belong to some other forums and none of them come even close to the engagement we all have here. Thanks again everyone
 

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I’m afraid I have to agree with Red Leg on this. Trump and the press are talking about this like it’s a playground fight. This decision is killing people. I’m not saying that a perpetual fighting force is the answer, however, we have almost certainly just killed innocent women and children with this decision. It seems a little more weighty than ‘they didn’t help us in Normandy’. Surely there was a better way to try to instill stability than the creation of a vacuum with an immediate withdrawal?
 

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MY WIFE AND I DONT USE CELL PHONES,NOTHING TO PUT DOWN,HANDS ARE FREE FOR BUSINESS.
Atta boy Ed! I’m more than willing to put my cell phone down for as long as it takes to dump theses liberal,socialist bastards!
 

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I’m afraid I have to agree with Red Leg on this. Trump and the press are talking about this like it’s a playground fight. This decision is killing people. I’m not saying that a perpetual fighting force is the answer, however, we have almost certainly just killed innocent women and children with this decision. It seems a little more weighty than ‘they didn’t help us in Normandy’. Surely there was a better way to try to instill stability than the creation of a vacuum with an immediate withdrawal?
The Middle East is a complicated place.

The Kurds have been America's allies over the past twenty years. The Kurds were fighting Saddam prior to Desert Storm. The Kurds were fighting ISIS prior to America entering that war. It can be argued that America did more for the Kurds than the Kurds did for America.

The Kurds have also been at war with Turkey through terrorist acts. Does Turkey have the right to defend it's self?

Does America have a treaty with the Kurds? They certainly have a treaty with Turkey. It is called NATO. Turkey has been an ally with America for much longer than they have the Kurds. All throughout the cold war. Technically America is responsible for defending Turkey against aggression.


At this point, none of us know exactly what is going on.(I have not seen any news today) Is Turkey even going to attack the Kurds, or do they have other objectives. We also don't know what has been communicated between Erdogan and Trump. Did Erdogan tell Trump he was going into northern Syria regardless of what Trump did. Does America want to risk a war with Turkey by leaving 100 or so soldiers in harms way.

Who did the much of the heavy fighting against ISIS? What was the roll of the GCC? The GCC hardly acknowledges their own existence, much less anything they do. They don't look for any recognition. Does the GCC have an alliance with the Kurds?

Trump told Erdogan that he would destroy the Turkish economy if they did anything out of line. Stopping access to the SWIFT system would certainly do that. Perhaps Trump is deciding to fight economically in lieu of using military action.

Erdogan is an easy person to dislike and distrust. The Kurds, as an underdog are easy to root for.

This is probably much more complicated than any of us realize. Time will tell.
 

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The Middle East is a complicated place.

The Kurds have been America's allies over the past twenty years. The Kurds were fighting Saddam prior to Desert Storm. The Kurds were fighting ISIS prior to America entering that war. So you already gave the answer how the Kurds supported america.


It can be argued that America did more for the Kurds than the Kurds did for America.

The Kurds have also been at war with Turkey through terrorist acts. Does Turkey have the right to defend it's self?

the PKK (party) is so classified, not 35 million Kurds living in different countries.
Thousands of villages have been destroyed by Saddam, hundreds of Nato member Erdogan, and the West is silent about it.
Kurds want their own state.
Erdogan is occupying parts of Syria contrary to international law.
Putin the Krim , an embargo against Russia, not against Turkey...............
Everyone pulls their tails in in front of the fanatical muslim Erdogan.
How much longer ?

Muslims fight against muslims
Is supposed to be a peaceful religion.
Then please explain to me why millions of muslims are on the run from muslims who want to kill them.



Does America have a treaty with the Kurds? They certainly have a treaty with Turkey. It is called NATO. Turkey has been an ally with America for much longer than they have the Kurds. All throughout the cold war. Technically America is responsible for defending Turkey against aggression.
Amerika needed Turkey as a strateic partner in the Cold War.
Europe does not need it (up to the refugee crisis,that's why Europe keeps its mouth shut).




At this point, none of us know exactly what is going on.(I have not seen any news today) Is Turkey even going to attack the Kurds, or do they have other objectives. We also don't know what has been communicated between Erdogan and Trump. Did Erdogan tell Trump he was going into northern Syria regardless of what Trump did. Does America want to risk a war with Turkey by leaving 100 or so soldiers in harms way.

Who did the much of the heavy fighting against ISIS? What was the roll of the GCC? The GCC hardly acknowledges their own existence, much less anything they do. They don't look for any recognition. Does the GCC have an alliance with the Kurds?

Trump told Erdogan that he would destroy the Turkish economy if they did anything out of line. Stopping access to the SWIFT system would certainly do that. Perhaps Trump is deciding to fight economically in lieu of using military action.

Erdogan is an easy person to dislike and distrust. The Kurds, as an underdog are easy to root for.

This is probably much more complicated than any of us realize. Time will tell.
 
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