Interesting interview on game farming and Put and Take

[mrpoindexter]

I’ve hunted a lot of game in a lot of countries. I’ve yet to spend millions. If you believe you have to I’d suggest more research.

I too have hunter game in a lot of countries and have not spent millions. I think I still need to do some more research. Don't know if I can spend millions researching but I am willing to try. Anybody know where I can get a research grant?

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but I don't care. I am too busy shopping for more animals for my continental slams...

 

[375Fox]

I too have hunter game in a lot of countries and have not spent millions. I think I still need to do some more research. Don't know if I can spend millions researching but I am willing to try. Anybody know where I can get a research grant?

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but I don't care. I am too

Read the post I responded to. It was written to you must accept put and take or spend millions to hunt game in native habitat. I highly disagree with that statement.

 

[Hookboy88]

Did you watch the interview before commenting? This is the kind of attitude that bothers me. Has the 21st century reached every point on globe somehow? Yes. You’ll find plastic pollution and signs of people everywhere if you look unfortunately. Do fully intact ecosystems still exist? Yes they do. Put and take hunting is not universal. On the African continent it’s limited to South Africa and a much lesser extent Namibia. Anywhere else game is not available to be easily brought in without a large undertaking, so must be managed on sustainable quotas or will take years to recover even on fenced areas. Being behind a fence doesn’t define put and take to me, but bringing in trophies each year as he describes to allow an off take greater than what would otherwise be sustainable to bring in more clients does. If you know what you are getting into great, but many don’t understand the scale or how common it is.

I’ve hunted a lot of game in a lot of countries. I’ve yet to spend millions. If you believe you have to I’d suggest more research. Game farming practices have made South Africa very affordable and easily accessible, but saying put and take is the only way is a ridiculous idea. Game farms can be managed on sustainable quotas too and many are. They are the “purists” he refers to in interview.

I’d also look into red stags in NW Spain, Romania, Turkey before suggesting the quality of all red stags is poor. Other regions have good genetics as well but might get supplemental feed. It’s like saying all whitetails in the North America outside a high fence are poor quality and ignoring Ohio, Illinois, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and others with the best native genetics. I’ve taken 18” springbok, 40” gemsbok, 45” buffalo, and others free range so it bothers me to see individuals say native game won’t be impressive. It depends on the area.

I agree with you. Eastern Europe has some fantastic Red Stags…

 

[Safari Dave]

Apparently, I need to do more research.

Sorry, for all I offended.



Personally, I'm just not a big fan of taking animals outside of their native range where they often grow well beyond their normal size with unlimited food and no predation.


I guess these are my just my self-imposed "ethics." (But, heck, I might be subject to change, if I shot a record book stag in New Zealand.)


There are numerous examples of animals growing to enormous proportions when taken to another hemisphere, so I will refrain from making a list.

Ultimately, hunting (& fishing) are sports that, for the most part, have self-imposed "rules."

To each his own...

Again, apologies...

 

[DieJager]

A really good interview and interesting. No real revelations for me. In think there is still a difference between shooting in a a small pen and/or just released days before and replenishing the stock before and/or after the end of the season. But a worthy discussion for sure.

Some less informed hunters are maybe after this interiew disillusioned that SA is not, in general, a wild untamed place. There are still somewhat wild, self sustaining areas in SA but you will pay hefty for it.

I applaud Tony for his openness and honesty. If every outfitter would do this nobody will have a unpleasant surprise how things are operated.

 

[WAB]

I have no interest in put and take, however, I also have no problem with it. I don’t care if it’s a pheasant or a lion, how is raising an animal for harvest any different than doing so with a steer?

Personally, I would just like to see honesty and transparency so that folks can make informed decisions. The haters will hate whether it’s a wild animal or an animal raised for harvest.

 

[VertigoBE]

This was an interesting and very honest insight into the SA model.

 

[grand veneur]

Hunts are offered worldwide in areas that many consider wild, but in reality have ceased for a long time to be so. Many outfitters will be for various reasons careful to claim the contrary to not take the dream of some. Therefore it is rather laudable that some of that honestly admit it.

The red deer, which has been mentioned a few times, is a good example of this in Europe. Although the red deer lives more or less in its native habitat, this habitat is, no matter what country, not wild and untouched for centuries. When necessary, the population was and still is improved by releasing deers.

As for the hunting farms or similar in Africa, normally every hunter should know that, due to the number of clients and the high success rate, something like that cannot be natural. Areas bordering national parks or areas with created water holes have also long ceased to be so. I don't know if there are any really wild hunting areas left in Africa. In such cases, it would be very difficult to offer successful hunts. I don't know if many hunters would book expensive hunts if they were told in advance that one don't know what game will stay in the area this season and whether they will see something. Free range hunting in the wild is more a commercial designation for something than the exact reality.

 

[grand veneur]

Hunting Bongo in the rain forest was, at the time I first started hunting in Africa, a difficult hunt with very low success rates. The Bongo was also considered back then as a very rare solitary living antelope. A lot has changed in the meantime. Where rain forests in Africa have increasingly been torn up for timber, something completely different was discovered. The current relatively large number of offers for bongo hunts is proof of this. The rain forest in Africa, and not just there, is also no longer a completely untouched natural area.

 

[Hookboy88]

Hunting Bongo in the rain forest was, at the time I first started hunting in Africa, a difficult hunt with very low success rates. The Bongo was also considered back then as a very rare solitary living antelope. A lot has changed in the meantime. Where rain forests in Africa have increasingly been torn up for timber, something completely different was discovered. The current relatively large number of offers for bongo hunts is proof of this. The rain forest in Africa, and not just there, is also no longer a completely untouched natural area.

I was under the impression that Bongo was still very low success rate?

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

I applaud Tony for his openness and honesty. If every outfitter would do this nobody will have a unpleasant surprise how things are operated.

Every outfitter doesn't work on this model.

 

[DieJager]

Every outfitter doesn't work on this model.

I know and that was not what I implied. Just that transparency how you operate your business is to be applauded. My last sentence, first alinea , in my previous post just acknowledges that.

Nothing wrong about how anybody conducts his business if he is transparant about it.

 

[HankBuck]

I thought some of you might find this interesting and informative. I think my opinions on put and take are well documented here. I wouldn’t hunt on an operation like this. The trophy would have no value to me, but I appreciate his honesty about how he operates. I see too often here it’s downplayed to only a “few bad operators” to downplay how common these practices are and the phrase self sustaining is used very flexibly for better marketing. You can listen for yourself if interested. I’d suggest starting at interview at 4 minutes to avoid the commentary.

@375Fox - thanks for posting this video, very insightful into the business end of hunting in SA. I thought the man relaying how he operates his Camp was candid, detailed, and seemed very comfortable with sharing “how” a high fence operation works - including describing what ‘self sustaining’ really means. His description often used the phrase “client experiance” and providing what his clients specificly wanted: a long hard walking spot & stalk or shooting a “crocodile in a bath tub”. He seems to work hard to provide his clients with an honest hunt and does not pretend or represent it to be anything that it isn’t. I would enjoy spending time with and talking to a guy like him but have No interest in participating the types of hunts he provides. He seems open & honest and I certainly respect that.
The SA high fence hunts remind me of many well operated “put & take” pheasant hunts - the birds are Not Wild but the hunting “experience” is very similar to a wild pheasant hunt Except — the birds are ALWAYS there, in high numbers, and success rates extremely consistent. I do Not consider going after pen raised birds (or other terms used “supplemented, liberated etc.”) to be real hunting but it is Great for training your dog, improving your wing shooting, and very enjoyable. The very best put & take Bird hunting closely replicates real hunting - good cover, birds that fly well, large tracts of scenic cover, good dogs, nice lodge & food = very pleasant experience….Similar to real hunting for wild birds. Good post & Video !!

 

[HankBuck]

I don’t know if anything is being argued. It’s a 30 minute interview where he lays out his business practices. You can call it put and take or high levels of supplementation. There have been lots of arguments here on AH back and forth over years about South African game farming practices, but you can hear it from the president of PHASA.

@375Fox Agree, I haven’t noticed anyone “arguing” about anything, just a man that operates a hunting operation is SA providing a Behind-the-Scenes look at how it’s done.

 

[PerH]

A new episode in the series .

 

[buck wild]

I think there is still a difference between shooting in a small pen and/or just released days before and replenishing the stock before and/or after the end of the season. But a worthy discussion for sure.

This !! Restocking populations with younger animals, knowing it will be 2-5 years before they are mature enough to hunt, is different to me than bringing in animals to be hunted next week by the 12 hunters you booked in camp. In the first situation, I'm not even sure I would agree to the label "put and take", although I can see how it could be construed broadly as such. People will also conflate "put and take" with "canned", which no ethical hunter would support.

It still baffles me how many of these large, commercial-type operations won't even admit to the practice of restocking.

 

[HankBuck]

I see it from the standpoint of all game being hunted for profit are managed. Methods of the hunt are most important to me. I’ve hunted large game fenced properties in South Africa and had fantastic experiences. I’ve been on free range guided hunts in the western United States that I wouldn’t care to repeat. I’ve experienced free range hunting where I looked at and spent the majority of my time on less than 1000 acres because the game was concentrated in that area. I’ve also spent days hunting every nook and cranny of 16000 acres before having seen it all. You can shoot any particular animal over bait, feed, or water, wild or raised. You can also shun those methods.
I have decided my next African hunt will be on as remote and wild of an area as I can find. I know several who have done the same, caught the Africa bug on well managed fenced property and then went on to the managed wild areas. The thought of that has me as excited as I was about my first trip. I found the attached list of common African game species and their home ranges interesting. Explains why you always seem to see impala in the same general area.
View attachment 696597

@Vintageguy - good chart and interesrting. I know with Whitetail deer their Home range varies greatly and bucks may spend most of their time on only one sq mile (640 acres) and many will require less then 1/2 of that depending on cover and food. However, during the Rut whitetail bucks can easily roam 2 to 5 miles “in one direction” searching for a doe to breed - that can increase that Bucks total range to well over 100 sq miles (64,000 acres). Also, young bucks often disperse from there place of birth after reaching 18 months old and can travel 3 to 20+ miles before they establish another home range, this is Natures way to keep “inbreeding” down. Now, I’m Not a Wildlife Biologist and these are things I’ve read over the years. Personal experience has only showed one time a Buck I was hunting (and had on camera) was shot a day later—- 3 miles away (in a straight line) during the rut. I think “any fence” regardless of size will have some impact on natural movement, but that does not mean it’s a “canned” hunt —- just that the Fence eventually plays some role—at some time- in the animals movement & location.

 

[PARA45]

A new episode in the series .

I'd like to know if that big Whitetail he has behind him was shot in a free-range area or in TX in a high fence area.

 

[HankBuck]

There is almost nothing completely "wild" in the entire world anymore.

We all need to recognize that.

I've been to some very remote places, only to find "native people" wearing Nike and Adidas shoes and western team sports T-Shirts.

"Put & Take" hunting is almost universal, exempt for a few hardy species, that can survive almost anywhere.


You can either accept it, of be prepared to spend a million $ trying to take them on their native soil.

And, if you take them where they are native, they won't be very impressive (Red Stag, for example)


Sad, but (I'm afraid) true...

@Safari Dave - not sure I understand you point? Or if you are just venting frustration which I can relate too (and agree with) as every generation sees less & less wild land to hunt on. But your post does not seem related to the OP and Video he shared - “native people” wearing “Nike & Adidas” might be true but the video was realistic and not sarcastic in anyway — it discusses in detail how a well managed high fence hunting operation is run - sort of a “behind the scenes look” and nothing offensive or unethical was revealed or even implied. The person interviewed gave an honest description of the difference between wild/free range and a well run controlled Safari operation in SA - there are some similarities and also distinct differences. No judgement or disparaging remarks were made. I found the video insightful & candid.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I don’t know if anything is being argued. It’s a 30 minute interview where he lays out his business practices. You can call it put and take or high levels of supplementation. There have been lots of arguments here on AH back and forth over years about South African game farming practices, but you can hear it from the president of PHASA.

@375Fox Agree, I haven’t noticed anyone “arguing” about anything, just a man that operates a hunting operation is SA providing a Behind-the-Scenes look at how it’s done.

Yea I probably should have reworded that post or explained my thought more thoroughly. I’m just curious about what drama is going on in PHASA and whether or not this interview was a response or publicity stunt to or in regards to said drama. At least he’s honest. I have no interest in hunting that type of operation (his plains game model) but I find it far less egregious than if someone buys a mature (or immature) trophy animal and releases it that week for a hunter (like he apparently will do with a croc….). In a high fence setting there must (obviously) be an addition of animals from time to time for genetic health. Supplementation for genetics on a periodic basis is not exactly what I consider to be “put and take”. Supplementation on a seasonal basis, surpassing the carrying capacity of a property, is. Bringing in animals to specifically accommodate a high volume of hunters to make your business work is not what I would call good conservation or ethical. He basically freely states that his business model relies on a number of hunters that his property size cannot support. That tells me that either you need a larger property (honestly 4k acres is tiny when you have the assistance of a vehicle and as a previously shared chart shows is not quite satisfactory for a lot of species) or you need to reconsider your business model and make adjustments. I do not see the financial considerations as a justification for put and take. Yes, a business must obviously be financially viable but if that viability relies on either unethical practices or bad conservation (or both) then that business or business model should be ceased or allowed to fail. Thankfully there are RSA operators who do not operate via put and take and rely on good conservation and sustainable practices. Choose wisely