How safe are safteys?

[mark-hunter]

I think that (average) PH very quickly estimates how a client handles a rifle, and how safe it is to have client with round chambered walking behind him. (during zeroing the rifles, day 1 in camp)

Then - at least when hunting PG, he decides how to handle the business.
In stalking, (not only in Africa) I always have round chambered and safety on, muzzle in safe direction.

So, how a PH can handle this situation, with unsafe clients?
Empty chamber is one possibility, but not ideal. Cycling the bolt will make mechanical sounds, and alert the game in worst moment.

I have seen on you tube, few other approaches, but they are all very similar.
Rifle is carried by PH or tracker, and politely given to client to shoot, already placed on sticks.
(Sometimes followed with advice, whispering: "Safety off, safety off,..." or additional coaching, whispering: "stop breathing, squeeze easy...")

Very often, I have seen (again on YT), after clients fires the shot, PH approaches takes over the rifle from client, and secure it. All in polite manner. And very often this is when a clients wife hunts.
It is all done in polite manner, and no feelings hurt, all happy.
Thats for PG.

(BTW, I would be offended if someone takes my rifle from me, to put it on safe)

For DG.
I really have no idea. To me it is unthinkable to consider that someone who is not proficient with firearm goes hunting dangerous game of Africa. But undoubtedly this can also happen.
On this point, our PH sponsors on forum might shed some light, how they handle this particular situation.

 

[steve white]

A Greener type safety supposedly blocks the firing pins--but is probably the SLOWEST on earth to take off--right up there with the old flag safeties.

 

[steve white]

Hmmm surprised I am the first one to address this but here goes. I don't trust safeties on most guns, but there are exceptions. Here is a gunsmith perspective

The vast majority of safeties are simply devices that keep the trigger from being pulled. Included in this list are most (but not all) boxlock rifles and shotguns, most bolt action rifles and the occasional sidelock shotgun.

Most sidelock shotguns and rifles have not only the trigger blocking mechanism but also a hammer blocking mechanism often called an "intercepting sear". On a typical SxS the "safety" that you work with your thumb simply slides a block over the trigger to prevent an accidental pull. Internally there is a "hammer block" that prevents the hammer from hitting the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled simultaneously. Always an exception. I have two FAMARS Castore sidelock hammer guns and neither has the "intercepting sear". I also have a very high grade Francotte sideplated boxlock that has intercepting sears.

The only thing that keeps the hammer from falling on any gun is the contact between the sear and the hammer. This contact point is no thicker than you thumbnails. So just imagine that your nails are pressing the edges against each other, you move one and it loses contact and bang. If you drop the gun there is nothing (on most guns) to keep the sear from disengaging and allowing the hammer to fall.

So for me a trigger block is only slightly more effective than the trigger guard. An intercepting sear is a real safety device.

Still carry my guns open until needed. Many don't have a "thumb safety". I shoot mostly damascus hammer guns.

Bill

If you carry the gun open there is a high, high chance you will have grass or other debris fall into the action. I have seen fine guns that would not close on a cigarette paper--what chance is there if something like a stem of grass or stick gets in there? Seems like Pondoro Taylor addressed this once...

 

[BeeMaa]

I'm right handed and normally carry my rifle on a sling, over my left shoulder, barrel forward with my left hand controlling the muzzle. This past September I carried a shotgun the same way for several miles while stalking geese and it worked great. I tried the method that @Red Leg uses with the muzzle down, but the long shotgun, high water levels along with dirt and debris would have gotten in the barrel. I'm going to give it another try with a shorter firearm (rifle) and see how it works.

In Africa I did as my PH had asked on our first stalk and didn't load the chamber until we were almost ready to take a shot. By our second stalk, he recognized how conscious my wife and I were about muzzle control and general firearm safety that he asked us to load the chamber and place the safety on when we left the bakkie. It was a matter of comfort and getting accustomed to how we operate.

I will say that I saw two bullet holes in the ceiling at one of the lodges. A client had brought his rifle into the lodge (he's not supposed to), unloaded it by cycling the action and pulled the trigger to ensure the chamber was clear...BAM. Hole in the ceiling. PH and the lodge manager had a short discussion, followed by the PH talking to the client...all good. The following night the same scenario played out with another hole in the ceiling. The client and PH had to leave the lodge IMMEDIATELY...no spending the night and no dinner. Thankfully no one was hurt but consequences are real even if that's the case.

Firearm safety is something that started at an early age for both me and my wife. Constant training is the only way to stay vigilant. Create that muscle memory and encourage safe gun handling habits. The Blaser R8 rifle we use are not infallible, but are about as safe as a "safety" can get. The user will be the one held responsible for the actions they take. Stay frosty.

 

[Nevada Mike]

In Africa my PH asked me to load and safe my rifle every time we left the 'cruiser. On returning to the truck the tracker would sheath my rifle after I unloaded the chambered round and showed him it was on safe. Worked fine for everyone.

I hunt with a Ruger No. 1 sometimes and always carry a round in the chamber with the rifle on safe. On these occasions I am usually alone or with one other person, and this makes it easier to always have the muzzle pointing in a safe direction.

 

[Tom Leoni]

I am a certified NRA instructor (rifle, pistol, shotgun, chief range safety officer) and I would never go on a stalk with a round in the chamber if there are other people close to me. No matter if I'm carrying a single shot, a double or a bolt. Also, while negotiating brush, thorns, barbed wire fences, etc., I go out of my way never to sweep my companions with the muzzle of my rifle, unloaded though it may be.

When it's 100% inevitable--e.g., single file, me in the middle, tight spot where the rifle must be parallel to the ground--I make it obvious that there is nothing in the chamber and I state as much to my companions.

I'm not virtue signaling. I just know I wouldn't enjoy the stalk if there were even the remotest possibility of an accident, which would haunt my life forever. The safety comes into play when we stop, I put a round in the chamber and wait to get the shot.

All this is easiest with a bolt action. Empty chamber, full magazine. It takes a second to chamber a round.

 

[BeeMaa]

I am a certified NRA instructor (rifle, pistol, shotgun, chief range safety officer) and I would never go on a stalk with a round in the chamber if there are other people close to me. No matter if I'm carrying a single shot, a double or a bolt. Also, while negotiating brush, thorns, barbed wire fences, etc., I go out of my way never to sweep my companions with the muzzle of my rifle, unloaded though it may be.

When it's 100% inevitable--e.g., single file, me in the middle, tight spot where the rifle must be parallel to the ground--I make it obvious that there is nothing in the chamber and I state as much to my companions.

I'm not virtue signaling. I just know I wouldn't enjoy the stalk if there were even the remotest possibility of an accident, which would haunt my life forever. The safety comes into play when we stop, I put a round in the chamber and wait to get the shot.

All this is easiest with a bolt action. Empty chamber, full magazine. It takes a second to chamber a round.

Do you employ this technique when DG is in the area as well? Big difference between whitetail in the US and buffalo in Africa.

 

[Red Leg]

I am a certified NRA instructor (rifle, pistol, shotgun, chief range safety officer) and I would never go on a stalk with a round in the chamber if there are other people close to me. No matter if I'm carrying a single shot, a double or a bolt. Also, while negotiating brush, thorns, barbed wire fences, etc., I go out of my way never to sweep my companions with the muzzle of my rifle, unloaded though it may be.

When it's 100% inevitable--e.g., single file, me in the middle, tight spot where the rifle must be parallel to the ground--I make it obvious that there is nothing in the chamber and I state as much to my companions.

I'm not virtue signaling. I just know I wouldn't enjoy the stalk if there were even the remotest possibility of an accident, which would haunt my life forever. The safety comes into play when we stop, I put a round in the chamber and wait to get the shot.

All this is easiest with a bolt action. Empty chamber, full magazine. It takes a second to chamber a round.

Hopefully all of us are conditioned not to sweep another with the muzzle of a firearm. I would simply note it is inherently easier to do that with a rifle in the hand than one safely on a sling.

Tom you will have to educate me on the appropriate NRA rules governing a driven bird hunt. By your logic, I assume that you couldn't enjoy walking a cornfield driving pheasants with a loaded and safed shotgun any more than walking away from the cruiser with a loaded rifle? Hunting sharpies on the northern plains is an even closer analogy - mile after mile along brushy bottoms with the occasional surprise flush. Even following up bird dogs over quail, an open actioned OU or SxS is simply asking for one more mechanical thing to go wrong as the gun is closed. Needless to say no one approaches the point with an empty gun.

 

[mark-hunter]

I am following with great interest. Maybe I learn something.

 

[Vintageguy]

I don’t own a double rifle but there is one feature I would insist on a double rifle having before I would purchase and that’s intercepting sears. I’ve collected, restored and repaired old double shotguns for most of my life and a true intercepting sear is as close to infallible as safety features come. They are best seen on a lock like a Holland and Holland sidelock. They don’t contact the sear at all in normal conditions but are held firmly in place ready to catch the hammer if it falls without the trigger being pulled such as an impact from being dropped and they prevent doubling under recoil. Doubling is one of the most common problems with old doubles I’ve worked on and most often happens when the shooter would fire the left barrel but both would go off. This was due to wear on the right sear from being the most often fired first barrel and it slips due to recoil and a weak sear spring. When I get a new antique I will fire a heavy load in each barrel with a empty and primer only in the other barrel to see if they double but then if it has safety sears I will disassemble the action to check to see if that safety sear is engaged or still disengaged. This is just to insure they are still in the intended operating condition because unless you check you would never know because it won’t double but still fires when you pull the trigger and resets when the gun is opened.
I’ve seen a couple of discharges take place on closing the gun. That can’t happen with a properly working safety sear. Those so-called accidental discharges where a person unloads their gun or chambers a round and then pulls the trigger to make sure it’s unloaded or on safety I don’t consider accidents but instead straight up stupidity and can’t be blamed on the gun.
A good safety combined with safety sears are as close to perfect as a gun safety can get on doubles.

 

[Tom Leoni]

@Red Leg @BeeMaa - interesting and valid questions. I can only relate my experience, limited though it may be. I have hunted Africa with dangerous game in the area (mainly buffalo, elephant and rhino) and I have always carried my rifle as I have described. Rifle unloaded, two rounds between the fingers of my left hand, and 100% peace of mind.

I have once witnessed an accidental discharge and this perhaps has made me overly cautious--which I freely admit I am. I'm not saying this is the right mentality--it is simply my way of looking at things. In any case, the PH's rules are Gospel, and my PH wants an empty chamber until ready to shoot.

Great question about bird hunting. Sometimes, but not always, I carry my side-by-side broken open with a round in each chamber until the dog is on point. It's a matter of a quick second to bring it to bear.

When walking with a shotgun fully loaded, perhaps it's the relative openness of the field, which makes it easier to always carry the gun with the muzzle pointing skyward, or perhaps it is the fact that everyone proceeds in a side-by-side fashion, but I've always found it extremely easy to have everyone in the party retain 100% control of their shotgun. All hunters are in plain view of each other with nobody in front or behind you. Not so when having to negotiate thick thornbush in single file, duck, weave, crawl, climb over, etc., with a high power rifle in your hands or even slung over your shoulder.

Again, I'm not saying it's the only way--not even remotely. Whatever safe method works for you and becomes a good habit, it's great. This is what has worked for me.