Flat nose vs round nose solids - What are the actual facts?

[Nhoro]

I am really struggling to find facts and this really bothers me. I have searched the internet and I find conflicting reports and very little scientific data.

So far I have found Charlie Haley's tests of round nose fmj vs round nose monolithics. He give almost identical results in a very scientific test for both types of bullets but unfortunately the only flat nose has small meplat. His results are essentially all the bullets have the same penetration if they have the same impact energy. He also gives penetration figures of 82 cm (8 cm elephant leg bone + 60 cm wet phone book + 14cm pine board) So basically 32 inches of straight line penetration and quite a bit tougher than wet pack alone.

I only found 2 tests that compared flat nose and round nose. One is by Rathcoombe(using other peoples data) and he shows flat nose bullets penetrating slightly less than conventional round nose BUT bullets all penetrating about 30-40 inches (agreeing with Charlie Haley's results more or less). Then I found another test showing penetration of 21 inches straight line for FMJ round nose and triple that for flat nose. Now to put that in perspective, a Woodleigh FMJ will not penetrate straight through a buffalo-side to side ? According to that test data, it would penetrate straight for only 22 inches and then leave the test box in the next 20 inches. So it would penetrate straight to the heart let say and then deviate horribly. Surely hunters out there would notice this kind of erratic performance ?

So my question to everyone - Is a round nose solid that bad ie 1/3 of the penetration ? Or are we talking a 10 % or 20% or even 30% difference ?

 

[BenKK]

I think Pierre van der Walt’s book has some info on it, from memory.

I use both kinds of solids quite cheerfully, but have had the traditional ones tumble (and one sheared in half) on some glancing hits on heavy bone.

I think the flat nose solids also displace more tissue.

Having said the above they both work on buffalo if you place them properly. Both kinds penetrate side-on on buffalo.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I have always read that meplat causes greater tissue devastation and has the better straight line penetration. This was with big bore handgun bullets so I am unsure how much translates to the rifle. The round nose and truncated cone projectiles always seemed to dance off bone and do strange things when energy was low or angles oblique.

 

[John J]

Meplat size and impact velocity are directly related to permanent wound channel. Veral Smith of LBT has alot of info out there about it. I shoot lead bullets with a meplat so a brass solid with a meplat by CEB for my 500 was perfectly logical for me. No reason to use round nose if the others feed well, for me atleast.

 

[Tanks]

I have had great penetration with CEB solids with 67% meplat. One of the bullets shown below went through the right shoulder and was found on the left hip of the elephant in my profile.

CEB .500 caliber 500 grain solid Bullet Performance

• Tanks
• Feb 18, 2020
• 1

CEB .500 caliber 500 grain solids recovered from elephants. The one on the bottom 15 meters...

 

[michael458]

There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance.....


#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber

Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality rifles..........


#2 Nose Profile

There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more... Not all of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all.... John at North Fork agrees, and in their work there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD........


#3 Construction & Material

Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.

#4 Nose Projection

Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.



#5 Radius Edge of Meplat

We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end than a sharp edged radius.... No more to go into here, thats it.......


All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design........


#6 Velocity

Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6.........





#7 Barrel Twist Rate

Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT....... If the meplat of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower...... I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber stabilize with ZERO TWIST....... I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times...... If you are using a properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ.......



#8 Sectional Density

Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............




These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work, and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field, many many times over...... These are the 8 Known Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid Bullets.................

 

[M McDindi]

Michael - when I initially saw this post, I was sure wishing there was some way that you could find out and post and low and behold, you are here.

Gentlemen all - I strongly recommend paying attention to what Micheal458 says above. On another forum, there is a sub forum called "Terminal Bullet Performance". It is over 300+ pages comprised of 12,000+ posts and chronicles all of his work and testing of just about every bullet on the market. Includes chronographed muzzle velocities, chronographed impact velocities, retained bullet weights, depth of penetration in the capture medium, depth of penetration before veering off course and photos of captured bullets etc, etc, etc. It is most likely the most comprehensive and as close to unbiased "scientific" study done.

Also LOTS of actual "field tests" by himself and others that pretty much confirmed the data he compiled in his work. I've corresponded with him in the past when he was doing some of the initial testing/development work on the CEB line of solids. Actually bought a couple of boxes of the early 458 CEB solids from him and used on some PG in Namibia.

LOTS of myths and "everybody knows" to be true dispelled and the guy KNOWS what he is talking about.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance.....


#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber

Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality rifles..........


#2 Nose Profile

There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more... Not all of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all.... John at North Fork agrees, and in their work there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD........


#3 Construction & Material

Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.

#4 Nose Projection

Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.



#5 Radius Edge of Meplat

We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end than a sharp edged radius.... No more to go into here, thats it.......


All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design........


#6 Velocity

Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6.........





#7 Barrel Twist Rate

Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT....... If the meplat of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower...... I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber stabilize with ZERO TWIST....... I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times...... If you are using a properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ.......



#8 Sectional Density

Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............




These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work, and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field, many many times over...... These are the 8 Known Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid Bullets.................

And look what the cat drug in....

 

[michael458]

Michael - when I initially saw this post, I was sure wishing there was some way that you could find out and post and low and behold, you are here.

I check in sometimes, not very often, but once and awhile. This one I could not resist. Maybe it will help some folks really understand what is going on with Solids and why. Things have come a long way since we began our investigation of Solids in 2006. 1000s of tests, 1000s of bullets, 100s of designs and changes, tweaks and turns. To me, the Solid is the most important component of a Safari or hunt, and this goes for not jus the normal species, buffalo, hippo, elephant, but can be incorporated in many other ways. Before retiring I carried far more solids than softs/or Raptors. And thanks for the kind words, much appreciated.........

And look what the cat drug in...

Yep. Hey Phil! I kinda just snuck in, not dragged this time... HEH.............

 

[Forrest Halley]

So basically you're telling me that I can take my .458 Lott and put a lighter bullet in it and drive it harder for less or similar recoil and make the rifle more lethal and flatter shooting. The side effect of this is that I will save money in practice by shooting lighter bullets? I'm interested.

How does the CEB compare to the Nosler .458 500 grain solid?

 

[M McDindi]

Let me give you the short course extracted from the referenced pages above and from my personal experience.

CEB .458 325gr solid at 2250fps in Michael's testing repeatedly went 60+ inched dead straight thru wet newsprint. I used that same bullet in our Siamese Mauser 45-70 and a custom Win 70 in 450Marlin loaded at 2300fps (chronographed). Did shoot any DG but a couple of mountain zebra and a few gemsbok from frontal chest inside 100m and all were complete full body pass thru.

At that weight and velocity they exceed 4000ft.lbs of ME, the min legal limit for DG. Tissue trauma was...most excellent.

Last year, I loaded some of their (CEB) .30cal 220gr solids to again test on game. If I remember correctly, the wet newsprint test was complete pass through, dead straight 70+ inches. Only got to use one shot on a blue w/b, frontal chest at 120m. I think the bullet is still traveling! I will ALWAYS from now on carry a few of these in my pocket while in elephant areas just in case no matter what caliber rifle I take/use.

By the way, for those who don't know, Michael also has developed his own series of big bore rifle calibers - the B&M series.

 

[michael458]

So basically you're telling me that I can take my .458 Lott and put a lighter bullet in it and drive it harder for less or similar recoil and make the rifle more lethal and flatter shooting

Yes, and you can use either 450 gr CEB Solids or the 450 North Forks (new design) and you will never need anymore than that. You can easy run those to 2400 fps and they are a hammer. I shot broadside elephant with one in 458 B&M at 2200 fps and it passed completely through. Also used on buffalo and hippo. I would not be overly concerned about flatter shooting for what these are designed for.

How does the CEB compare to the Nosler .458 500 grain solid?

The CEB is a FAR FAR FAR better bullet. Designed from the ground up and tested at each step in the process to get it right. It is 100% stable to the dead end of penetration ,the Nosler is not. Nosler is not bad, better than a RN, but it don't compare to the CEB or North Forks.

 

[michael458]

I will ALWAYS from now on carry a few of these in my pocket while in elephant areas just in case no matter what caliber rifle I take/use.

Absolutely. I used to do near the same thing back in the day with 358 STA.

There are many many reasons to have a good solid along on a hunt, and NO REASON not to.

 

[michael458]

In 2014 my youngest son was along for our last trip to Zimbabwe. He got a chance to shoot a troublesome elephant that was causing issues in the village. He had been using his 475 Super Short, a CEB 350 gr #13 Solid at 2200 fps. It was a medium size bull, at 10 yards side brain. Compete dead straight penetration and exit other side. This is a .474 caliber 350 gr bullet SD of .223. He also used it for hippo and buffalo, complete broadside pass thru of course. SD is not as important as once claimed. The other factors in design are far more important.

 

[M McDindi]

Michael - I wish the pages with all your testing could be linked here as the work, time, effort and expense YOU put in over several year is (not was) truly astonishing. Unfortunately, the mods here would likely have a conniption regardless of how educational/beneficial your research has been.

 

[Tanks]

...

By the way, for those who don't know, Michael also has developed his own series of big bore rifle calibers - the B&M series.

Just to make it clear while Michael certainly will advise and help on these rifles he has no financial interest and the donor actions are barreled by SSK Industries, and stocks are made by Accurate Innovations.

The only thing he "sells" are the dies at his cost as he had to order them in bulk in order for Hornady to make them.

All the research he did, thousands of man hours over the years that has been done in regards to design and test of bullets has been turned over to Cutting Edge Bullets gratis. As a matter of fact CEB has been paid to produce different design bullets as the design was evolving over the years.

All for the journey of "Terminal Performance" in big game bullets.

The African game hunting community owes a lot to Michael for his work, he is pretty self depreciating to a fault, so this needed to be said.

 

[michael458]

Unfortunately, the mods here would likely have a conniption

Yeah, one of them had something to say the other day because I posted some photos of my personal rifles and it had the B&M Buffalo Card in the photo.........

Does not matter, I have nothing to sell anyone, and don't care one way or the other.

However, if anyone has any questions or help with anything, more than happy to help out, its cheap, no charge! LOL................ And it might be worth what you pay for it! LOL............

Tanks, BTW...... I do have your rifle here, and it looks damn good. Wes did a great job on the wood. No, I have not taken photos YET, but will, maybe tomorrow. And, what exactly do you want me to do with it other than confirm feed/function, and can sight irons in for you? PM me that if you want........

Back to bullets and Solids......... Sorry........ Yeah, anyone got any questions???????

 

[Wyatt Smith]

@michael458 at what speed does the difference between copper and brass start to make a difference, provided the design is the same?
And in a 375 what weight of bullet would you choose.

 

[M McDindi]

Yeah, one of them had something to say the other day because I posted some photos of my personal rifles and it had the B&M Buffalo Card in the photo.........

The most aggravating thing is their "policies" seem to be "selectively" enforced. Not sure if it's a Mod who follows certain of us, or some twit on here who follows certain members and "reports" selective posts to Mods while both ignore other violations or what.

While I understand Jerome's rules and policies here are to protect his site and it's paying sponsors, in some cases, unfortunately, as in this case some of the absolutely best information available on the web is denied to the hunting community served by this site and likely keeps certain members with VALUABLE information, such as yourself, from contributing more here.

 

[Dewald]

Very good information on here.

Do any of the members here have experience with Dzombo solids? They are manufactured in SA, and have their origins in the Kruger National Park. Many many elephant and buffalo were, and still are, culled with .308 caliber Dzombos and they are used by a number of KNP rangers and PHs in larger calibers. I’ve had exceptional straight line penetration from them from the 400gr .416 and .411 bullets from a .416 Ruger and .450-.400 3&1/4” on a number of buffalo and giraffe. I’d be interested to know if they have made their way abroad.

Recovered from a wetpack

The Mk4 and later Mk6