English v German/Austrian gunmakers

[Red Leg]

Another place to window shop is Hartmann & Weiss. https://www.hartmannandweiss.com/en/homepage.html Their incredible array of rifles and guns are classics and are every bit the quality (and price) of anything produced by Holland &Holland, Purdey, or Rigby. Just extraordinary creations.

 

[Rimbaud]

Another place to window shop is Hartmann & Weiss. https://www.hartmannandweiss.com/en/homepage.html Their incredible array of rifles and guns are classics and are every bit the quality (and price) of anything produced by Holland &Holland, Purdey, or Rigby. Just extraordinary creations.

Depending on the state of the Wuhan virus, I will be in Zimbabwe in June 2021 for Cape buffalo, and also back to Namibia for some post-hunt plains game shooting. I shoot each year in England, and in 2022 I am eager to extend the trip to follow the roe rut around Europe, and have a rifle made, provided I can twist my office calendar to my favor. A fine madness is a great way to describe this. My wife just shakes her head and smiles at all of this, but my son intuitively understands.

 

[Nevada Mike]

A stimulating discussion. I like to think that I appreciate any fine weaponry from whatever maker produces it. If you are comparing or contrasting British gun and rifle makers with European gun and rifle makers you must include ALL of Europe. The Eastern Europeans, Italians and Spanish have a long history of fine gun making and, although the Spanish (Basque) makers are having a difficult time right now, the Italians are still innovating and building fine guns, both traditional British designs and many fine designs that originated in Italy. Certainly, some very fine shotguns are made in Italy. both O/U and SxS.

Hartmann & Weiss in Hamburg makes guns and rifles as fine as any made ANYWHERE. The principles worked in England and have now 'one-upped' the English makers. Some people criticize German guns as 'cuckoo clocks' but Austrian gun makers like Johann Springer made many fine guns in the English style. And Harold Lindner (Suhl Germany) made top end shotguns for the American market retailed under the Charles Daly name - when the name meant something.

Right now I am having a .404 Jeffery Mauser rifle built by a Swiss-trained gun-maker, Reto Buehler, of Medford, Oregon. He makes some of the finest rifles being built today. He builds single shots - both break open and falling block - in the Austrian tradition and in the English style and excels in 'classical' English style Mauser rifles, especially safari rifles.

I own and shoot fine guns and rifles built in the USA, England, Scotland, Italy, Germany, and Belgium. No one country can claim exclusivity in fine gun-making any longer.

 

[Hank2211]

@Red Leg's post was excellent. To just extend that form follows function exercise a bit, you can see in the design of English shotguns that they were made to be an "extension" of the shooter's arms - to easily enable shooters to "point and shoot." That form was then ported into the design of rifles, particularly but not exclusively doubles. It undoubtedly helped that for much of the late 19th and 2oth centuries many of these guns were made to order, and therefore customized to the shooter.

It is interesting to examine the work of Ralf Martini, a German gunmaker who has lived in Canada for many years. He learned his trade in Europe and I understand was making guns in the continental style. Early in his career though, he decided that he much preferred the English style of stock, finding it more practical as well as more elegant. Since then, he has made his stocks in that style. There are threads here on AH dealing with the Heym Express by Martini, which Ralf designed for Heym when they approached him to help them understand why their express rifle wasn't selling. His "English" design for them has greatly improved the sales of that rifle, although the actual action of the guns are resolutely European. We continue to see that continental rifle makers are appreciated in England more for their actions than for their stock and overall rifle designs (as in Rigby's rifles, for example).

This is not to suggest that one country makes better guns and rifles than another, and in fact, many continental gun and rifle makers today will make guns in the English style - which is more or less the same as the North American - if only because that market is the biggest. It's one of the great things about firearm design. While gunmakers have gravitated over the years towards similar action designs (with some obvious exceptions such as certain of the Blaser rifles which remain interesting examples of German engineering) - gunmakers continue to make guns and rifles in many varying styles and appearance. This is great, of course, since buyers can generally get the style which works best for them or which they prefer aesthetically. In other words, I love a German action in my Rigby, but I'm grateful for the English design and balance. It just works for me.

 

[ZG47]

@Red Leg Thanks for the info. I have a signed copy of Vintage Guns for the Modern Shot by Diggory Hadoke, published by Merlin Unwin Books. It is an excellent primer on shotguns and break-action guns in general. I learn something new every time I read it (or simply come to understand what I did not clearly grasp on first, second or third reading ).

I also have Double-barreled Rifles: Fascination in Wood and Steel by Norbert Klups, published by Schiffer Military History. Klups addresses the question of how to productively fit telescopic sights to O/U and S/S double-barreled rifles, in conjunction with historical background and details of various breech mechanisms, cartridge development, etc.

Both books contain excellent technical images and accompanying descriptions so ... if it seems a bit daunting at first, you will eventually come to grips with what is being presented.

 

[Pondoro]

I have handeled a couple of Mauser bolt rifles and a takedown single shot (Hagn system) with two barrels all made by Hartmann & Weiss. I must say that those two bolts are the finest and most tasteful bolt rifles I have ever seen… Those two belong to a friend..he ordered the last one himself in .300Win.Mag. and the firm was a delight to do business with...very personal customer service..

 

[IvW]

Bergstutzen, I like Blaser....9.3x74R/6.5×57R

Drilling, I like Blaser BD14.....7x57R/22 Hornet/20ga

Single shot, I like Blaser K95 or Bradshaw...7x65R

Double, I like many but stumbled across a Joseph Winkler, hand detachable sidelock, I am not one for engraving but this rifle is beautifully engraved.....it is truely remarkable.....how good it is I have no clue....
From a practical point a Heym makes sense.....but man this Winkler is something else..

 

[Muskox]

Ok, what kind of single shot?

Falling block like a Heeren, Hagn, old Sauer? There are others.

Break action or Kiplauf like a Blaser, Merkel, Krieghoff, Heym (I think they are K24 models, I can't remember), there were others.

Scherring and others in Ferlach make their own kiplaufs and falling blocks.

Griswald Prinz makes a transvestite Canon action/Kiplauf. Pretty but also stupid heavy.

Hartmann and Weiss, Furtschegger, Dorelac, and others still make a Heeren.

You can get a Hagn made by Ralph Martini or here by Hartman and Weiss.

www.egun.de

eGun

HEERENBÜCHSE- FURTSCHEGGER KALIBER 30 R BLASER - eGun

Heerenbüchse Kufsteiner Waffen 7x75RSEvH, TOP Zustand mit Zeiss Diavari - eGun

https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=19578498 heym ruger

#22 Hahnspanner Einzellader Büchse Karl Grund Ferlach Kal. 25-06 Rem. - eGun

Anton Sodia / Karl Hauptmann Seitenschloss Kipplaufbüchse Kaliber 7x65R - eGun

#22 Hahnspanner Einzellader Büchse Karl Grund Ferlach Kal. 25-06 Rem. - eGun

http://www.ferlachguns.com/ This is Hambruch

There are probably 30-50 other makers in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, France and other places.

I like Scheirring. Not because I like his rifles the best, but he is a very serious hunter. A lot of these people are not. They make a product, they don't live the culture.

https://www.vdb-waffen.de/de/waffen...&s_hk=13&s_sk=81&s_k=&s_z=&s_p=&s_d=&o=neu&v= Single shots on VBD

Einzellader - Langwaffen im VDB - Verband Deutscher Büchsenmacher und Waffenfachhändler e.V. - Gebrauchtwaffen Jagdwaffen Sportwaffen

VDB, der Verband Deutscher Büchsenmacher und Waffenfachhändler e.V. (Geschäftsstelle Gisselberger Straße 10, 35037 Marburg - Tel. 06421/48075-00 - Fax 06421/48075-99 - info@vdb-waffen.de)

www.vdb-waffen.de

Kipplaufbüchsen - Langwaffen im VDB - Verband Deutscher Büchsenmacher und Waffenfachhändler e.V. - Gebrauchtwaffen Jagdwaffen Sportwaffen

VDB, der Verband Deutscher Büchsenmacher und Waffenfachhändler e.V. (Geschäftsstelle Gisselberger Straße 10, 35037 Marburg - Tel. 06421/48075-00 - Fax 06421/48075-99 - info@vdb-waffen.de)

www.vdb-waffen.de

 

[Muskox]

Hit me up if you have more questions about European makers. I am here after all. Not an expert, but I know a few guys.

 

[Muskox]

Sajovec Waffen Stutzen Handspannung von Waffen-Beer OHG Peter Beer aus Kempten

Eleganter Kipplaufstutzen mit Achtkantlauf und MagnaPort. 64cm Lauflänge, Direktabzug und Handspannung. Gerader Schaftrücken mit Bayrischer Backe mit Doppelfalz, Schaftmagazin und großer Gummikappe. 36cm Schaftlänge, montiert mit Zeiss Diavari 3-12x5...

www.vdb-waffen.de

 

[Muskox]

JUCH-GRUND FERLACH HAHN Kipplauf von Waffen-Will & Apel GmbH Alljagd-Fachgeschäft aus Hannover

Hochfeine HAHN KipplaufbüchseFabrikat Juch Grund aus Ferlach Kaliber 5,6x52R Achtkant Lauf HAHN Seitenschloss Exclusives Schaftholz Schaftform Bayrische Back Kaisergriff Ornamentgravur mit Goldfäden Suhler Einhak Montage ZF Zeiss Victory ...

www.vdb-waffen.de

 

[Muskox]

JUCH-GRUND FERLACH HAHN Kipplauf von Waffen-Will & Apel GmbH Alljagd-Fachgeschäft aus Hannover

Hochfeine HAHN KipplaufbüchseFabrikat Juch Grund aus Ferlach Kaliber 5,6x52R Achtkant Lauf HAHN Seitenschloss Exclusives Schaftholz Schaftform Bayrische Back Kaisergriff Ornamentgravur mit Goldfäden Suhler Einhak Montage ZF Zeiss Victory ...

www.vdb-waffen.de

Chicken gun!

 

[IvW]

Joseph Winkler?

 

[Jäger_Ivo]

This is a nice book about current German and Austrian small producers.

https://wildundhund.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/11/Die_Buechsenmacher.pdf

 

[Grat]

Thomas Heuberg- beautiful handmade Hagn system rifles. For bolt action based on Mauser systems there are some specialist building to your wishes. You must know that Mauser Systems were also built by other factories like FN, Mauser Argentino….Those systems are still used.
Gunmakers I love: Max Ern, Hartmann&Weiß, Roland Kessler ( building a „light Mauser Version“)
In Ferlach,Austria there are Fanzoj (Double Rifles, Single,Bolt action), Scheiring ( building his own system „Kippblock“ for Doubles, Single, loading own amunition), Hambrusch ( bolt action).

 

[Pondoro]

Hartmann & Weiss, Hagn system, 2 barrels, .243Win. and 7mm Rem. Mag.

 

[PerH]

Hartmann & Weiss, Hagn system, 2 barrels, .243Win. and 7mm Rem. Mag.View attachment 605655

Think i read about In VJ

« made to the levels the ones London should be making them «
I think one qoute was .

 

[Pondoro]

Think i read about In VJ

« made to the levels the ones London should be making them «
I think one qoute was .

You are correct...for sale if interested.. (Vaagsland..for ccustomer..)

 

[ofbiro]

Years ago, I was curious about the success top break and combination long guns had in the German speaking area.
With the help of an old Austrian book that belonged to my late father in law and some recent statistics, I compared the shooting results of years 1906 and 2014 in Austria.

​	AUSTRIA - THE CULL​
​	YEAR 1906 (1)​	YEAR 2014(2)​
Woodcock​	7,407​	2544​
Capercallie​	5639​	186​
Rock Partridge​	2594​	0​
Pheasants​	85362​	70444​
Black Cock​	4983​	1529​
Hazel Grouse​	6731​	111​
Ptarmigan​	2183​	0​
Quail​	18410​	0​
Partridge​	381519​	4098​
Hare​	543660​	116135​
TOTAL SMALL GAME ​	1.042.848​	195.047​
​	​	​
Chamois​	8356​	19690​
Roe Deer​	57714​	268054​
Red Deer​	13135​	51677​
Wildboar​	666​	32559​
Fallow Deer​	253​	930​
Moufflon​	0​	2637​
Sika Deer​	0​	776​
Ibex​	0​	530​
TOTAL HOOFED GAME​	80.124​	376853​
(1)
Statistik Austria 2015

The figures suggest that it was wise to be ready to fire shot, while the bullet use was incidental.
Moreover, most of the time shooting was a social event, where everybody could realise, at a glance, whether someone top break gun was open or close, while the same investigation requires a close look to the action of other rifles.

Sources:
- Böhmerle – Taschenbuch für Jäger und Jagdfreunde
HofsVerlag Carl Fromme Wien (Austria) 1908
-Statistik Austria 2015


Moreover, most of the time shooting was a social event, where everybody could realise, at a glance, whether someone top break gun was open or close, while the same investigation requires a close look to the action of other rifles.

 

[Grat]

1906 was the time of Austria-Hungary k&k monarchie. The area of the crownlands were much biger than Austria in 2014. This shows specially the figure of Small Game. The natural biotops of this time where much better for small game than nowadays. The technique and quality of shotguns I think have been better than today- as well Austrian ( Springer, Kaletzky, Lebeda) or British shotguns.
On the other hand rifle shooting distances on hoofed game with popular calibers at the beginn of 20th Century had been much shorter than nowadays , also combined with much better scopes today.