English v German/Austrian gunmakers

Rimbaud

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I have developed an interest in bespoke, single-shot German/Austrian rifles. What I cannot determine, however, is the intellectual relationship between German and English makers. On one hand, Mauser bolt actions reign supreme, but on the other hand English makers - Rigby, H&H, Boss, etc - seem to have perfected the art. Stalking rifles seem to be in a class all of their own. Much appreciate if anyone has any added knowledge on this matter of the evolution of European gun making and the interplay between England and German/Austria gun makers. I’d love to find a book or essay that shows how ideas in one country or the other spurred innovation and thus advanced gun making. Thanks in advance.
 
You might try Google.
 
I will watch this tread with interest as I like classic single shots from the countries you mentioned and some of the early american makers. I don't have the detailed knowledge of the subject so I am going to sit on the sidelines and learn.
 
I will watch this tread with interest as I like classic single shots from the countries you mentioned and some of the early american makers. I don't have the detailed knowledge of the subject so I am going to sit on the sidelines and learn.
If you haven’t seen this, you may enjoy. After a while of researching, you see this interplay between UK and German/Austria makers, but I have not been able to find anything that details the evolution, and how the nation’s makers learned from each other. https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/Gun_Room/March 2012.pdf
 

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Interesting and complex subject, but you are forgetting the Belgian makers, less known but just as good.
 
Interesting and complex subject, but you are forgetting the Belgian makers, less known but just as good.
Which Belgian makers do you recommend exploring. Aside from Browning’s Belgian-made shotguns, the Belgian gunmakers are largely unknown to me.
 
Dumoulin and Lebeau-Courally are the ones I know firsthand, besides Browning.

However, there are many small shops turning out fine guns, mainly shotguns.
 
FYI - L&O Holding (a German company) owns both Rigby and Mauser.
As well as Blaser, JP Sauer & Sohn and SIG (along with a few others).

The global market has shrunk and the lines between the companies is very much blurred.

My personal preference on single shot rifles lies with the Blaser K95 and Krieghoff Hubertus.
 
FYI - L&O Holding (a German company) owns both Rigby and Mauser.
As well as Blaser, JP Sauer & Sohn and SIG (along with a few others).

The global market has shrunk and the lines between the companies is very much blurred.

My personal preference on single shot rifles lies with the Blaser K95 and Krieghoff Hubertus.
Private-equity keeps trying to roll-up the gun space. The idea is to corner the market, consolidate admin functioning to reduce expense, etc., and target the high-end consumer who is largely immune to economic and stock market fluctuations. I have taken a shine to Scheiring and Fanozj, which I believe remain independent. I'd much like to read a book, or essay, that delves into the evolution of firearms. I haven't been able to find a good book, but I have seen some one-off treatments of Browning and Mauser.
 
.

My personal preference on single shot rifles lies with the Blaser K95 and Krieghoff Hubertus.

My Krieghoff Hubertus
28A98F1D-DA4C-4162-9039-5EB7433D05BD.jpeg
 
The first thing to remember is that form follows function. The guns and rifles of Great Britain were developed to support the functional needs of the British sportsman - both in the UK and in the colonies - particularly India and East Africa. The same was true of Germany and Austria (also France and Belgium - both of which produced excellent guns and rifles). It is important to remember that the German/Austrian colonial market collapsed with the end of WWI in 1918. That had a major effect on Continental development of dangerous game rifles.

In the UK, shotgun hunting was largely defined by the driven hunt - primarily grouse. The English game gun was created to accommodate that specific set of challenges; fast inbound birds, presenting targets near and far. It is why the traditional English SxS is choked very open on the right and fairly tight on the left in order to provide that instant choice. Guns for "rough hunting" - for walking up game or shooting decoying pigeons, etc - typically mirrored the game gun, but were usually of simpler and less expensive design for the farmers and small landowners who purchased and used them.

The rifle for hunting in the UK was largely defined by deer stalking. There are many exceptions, but that solution was typically found in either a falling block single (the Gibbs or Alex Henry are quintessential) or a medium bore bolt action. Those bolt actions and barreled actions were usually sourced from mauser. But one also finds Mannlicher Schoenauers and repurposed Lee and P-14 Enfields built as medium bore stalking rifles and carrying prestigious English names. The .275 (7x57) was the classic choice, though the .308 has gained a great modern following.

Again, there are exceptions. For instance, there were a whole class of rifles used for pests that are called "rook" rifles. These were built on falling block, Martini, and break-open designs and were chambered in what we would consider "pistol" cartridges.

Georgian taste was restrained, and this notion of minimalism but unsurpassed quality manifested itself in British stock design - essentially nothing present that didn't contribute to accurate shot placement.

Like the British gunmaker, the Continental gunmakers delivered designs to meet the needs of their customers. The German/Austrian hunter also participated in drive hunts. However these were often lines of beaters and guns marching across fields. Other times game was pushed toward them, but the bag was typically mixed. A hunter could be presented with a flushing pheasant, Hungarian partridge, a European hare (weighing as much 8-10 lbs), or a wild boar, and all within the span of a few minutes. Guns for such hunting tended to be robust, tightly choked, and with dimensions more like a rifle than an English SxS. Combination guns were extremely popular and useful. Unlike his deer stalking colleague in the UK, the German or Austrian spent far more time in high-seats. On the typical revier (lease), the German hunter would have a detailed shooting plan requiring the selective take of age groups and sexes of deer. He thus spent days in blinds (being certain a particular doe is barren takes skill and effort), and was also constantly on the lookout for foxes, feral cats, martin, etc. for which a load of shot was far better choice. Combination guns reigned supreme. "Bockbuchsflinte" (shotgun over a rifle) or drillings (SxS shotgun over rifle) were the most common. They allowed the instant shot selection of whatever was most appropriate for the animal that appeared. Drillings were also extremely useful on drive hunts where wild boar might be encountered.

The use of a wide range of shot sizes led to the development of very strong actions with numerous locking mechanisms. Critics often denigrate these wonderful guns as over engineered, but they are robust and perfect for their intended use. The trigger plate action became as common in central Europe as the Anson & Deeley did in the UK. The Kirsten locking system was ideal for OU's and very strong. The transition from OU shotgun or Bockbuchsflinte to OU double rifle was easy and Austria and Germany built many wonderful doubles in this form (far more than the British did SxS double rifles). It was also a very easy step to drop everything but the rifle barrel creating the beautiful single shots we find today.

Hunting rifles were also medium caliber for essentially the same game as the UK. Stylistic differences were mainly found in the stocks. An exception were the petit Mannlicher Shoenauers that were created for Alpine hunting and the large number of 9.3x74R OU rifles which were so effective on boar and red stag in the thick cover of Central Europe (compared to the needs of the British stalker in the Scottish highlands).

Because Germany lost its German Southwest (Namibia) and German East (Tanzania) African colonies at the end of the First World War, much dangerous game rifle development ended. When Americans first appeared in Africa in numbers between the wars, it was the British interpretation of a dangerous game rifle that awaited them in the hands of their stalwart white hunter. It was either a heavy double or a robust mauser-based bolt action. Had Germany retained its colonies, I have no doubt we would consider a heavy OU double rifle every bit as "proper" as the English interpretation of dangerous game rifle, and our list of regularly used dangerous game cartridges would include a number of now nearly extinct metrics.

This is barely a Cliffsnotes "history." but the divergent but still parallel development makes sense when we remember form always follows function.
 
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The first thing to remember is that form follows function. The guns and rifles of Great Britain were developed to support the functional needs of the British sportsman - both in the UK and in the colonies - particularly India and East Africa. The same was true of Germany and Austria (also France and Belgium - both of which produced excellent guns and rifles). It is important to remember that the German/Austrian colonial market collapsed with the end of WWI in 1918. That had a major effect on Continental development of dangerous game rifles.

In the UK, shotgun hunting was largely defined by the driven hunt - primarily grouse. The English game gun was created to accommodate that specific set of challenges; fast inbound birds, presenting targets near and far. It is why the traditional English SxS is choked very open on the right and fairly tight on the left in order to provide that instant choice. Guns for "rough hunting" - for walking up game or shooting decoying pigeons, etc - typically mirrored the game gun, but were usually of simpler and less expensive design for the farmers and small landowners who purchased and used them.

The rifle for hunting in the UK was largely defined by deer stalking. There are many exceptions, but that solution was typically found in either a falling block single (the Gibbs or Alex Henry are quintessential) or a medium bore bolt action. Those bolt actions and barreled actions were usually sourced from mauser. But one also finds Mannlicher Schoenauers and repurposed Lee and P-14 Enfields built as medium bore stalking rifles and carrying prestigious English names. The .275 (7x57) was the classic choice, though the .308 has gained a great modern following.

Again, there are exceptions. For instance, there were a whole class of rifles used for pests that are called "rook" rifles. These were built on falling block, Martini, and break-open designs and were chambered in what we would consider "pistol" cartridges.

Georgian taste was restrained, and this notion of minimalism but unsurpassed quality manifested itself in British stock design - essentially nothing present that didn't contribute to accurate shot placement.

Like the British gunmaker, the Continental gunmakers delivered designs to meet the needs of their customers. The German/Austrian hunter also participated in drive hunts. However these were often lines of beaters and guns marching across fields. Other times game was pushed toward them, but the bag was typically mixed. A hunter could be presented with a flushing pheasant, Hungarian partridge, a European hare (weighing as much 8-10 lbs), or a wild boar, and all within the span of a few minutes. Guns for such hunting tended to be robust, tightly choked, and with dimensions more like a rifle than an English SxS. Combination guns were extremely popular and useful. Unlike his deer stalking colleague in the UK, the German or Austrian spent far more time in high-seats. On the typical revier (lease), the German hunter would have a detailed shooting plan requiring the selective take of age groups and sexes of deer. He thus spent days in blinds (being certain a particular doe is barren takes skill and effort), and was also constantly on the lookout for foxes, feral cats, martin, etc. for which a load of shot was far better choice. Combination guns reigned supreme. "Bockbuchsflinte" (shotgun over a rifle) or drillings (SxS shotgun over rifle) were the most common. They allowed the instant shot selection of whatever was most appropriate for the animal that appeared. Drillings were also extremely useful on drive hunts where wild boar might be encountered.

The use of a wide range of shot sizes led to the development of very strong actions with numerous locking mechanisms. Critics often denigrate these wonderful guns as over engineered, but they are robust and perfect for their intended use. The trigger plate action became as common in central Europe as the Anson & Deeley did in the UK. The Kirsten locking system was ideal for OU's and very strong. The transition from OU shotgun or Bockbuchsflinte to OU double rifle was easy and Austria and Germany built many wonderful doubles in this form (far more than the British did SxS double rifles). It was also a very easy step to drop everything but the rifle barrel creating the beautiful single shots we find today.

Hunting rifles were also medium caliber for essentially the same game as the UK. Stylistic differences were mainly found in the stocks. An exception were the petit Mannlicher Shoenauers that were created for Alpine hunting and the large number of 9.3x74R OU rifles which were so effective on boar and red stag in the thick cover of Central Europe (compared to the needs of the British stalker in the Scottish highlands).

Because Germany lost its German Southwest (Namibia) and German East (Tanzania) African colonies at the end of the First World War, much dangerous game rifle development ended. When Americans first appeared in Africa in numbers between the wars, it was the British interpretation of a dangerous game rifle that awaited them in the hands of their stalwart white hunter. It was either a heavy double or a robust mauser-based bolt action. Had Germany retained its colonies, I have no doubt we would consider a heavy OU double rifle every bit as "proper" as the English interpretation of dangerous game rifle, and our list of regularly used dangerous game cartridges would include a number of now nearly extinct metrics.

This is barely a Cliffsnotes "history." but the divergent but still parallel development makes sense when we remember form always follows function.
Thanks, Red Leg, for such an erudite response. I had a feeling that you could answer my question, and I had hoped you would respond. Do you have any recommendations for books and essays that I could read to get a better handle on the issue?
 
Thanks, Red Leg, for such an erudite response. I had a feeling that you could answer my question, and I had hoped you would respond. Do you have any recommendations for books and essays that I could read to get a better handle on the issue?

There is a lot of literature on English guns and rifles; much of it recent due to the resurgence of interest in traditional English rifles and SxS's.

Unfortunately, there is very little on the German/Austrian gunmakers. Part of this is, of course, the language issue. But there is comparatively little in German either. Unlike the London and Birmingham makers whose ledgers often remain and about whom many of the current craftsman have personal knowledge, the German gunmaking guild was largely destroyed by the second World War. Many records were in Suhl, which was taken by the Soviets. What wasn't looted, expatriated, or deliberately destroyed was simply lost in the chaos following defeat. Individual gunmakers and craftsmen were killed in uniform or under the relentless bombing campaign. One of the better resources is the German Gun Collectors Association http://www.germanguns.com/.

With respect to British firearms, anything by Diggory Hadoke, Gough Thomas, and Geoffrey Boothroyd is worth owning. Donald Dallas's "The British Sporting Gun and Rifle" is a excellent overview as is Richard Akehurst's "Game Guns and Rifles". Terry Wieland is an American who has written extensively on fine guns with much attention to the British.

I probably have at least two dozen volumes dealing with British shooting, firearms, and gunmakers in my library, and perhaps only three or four on the subject of continental firearms. The guns produced prior to WWII in Germany were as fine as anything produced in the United Kingdom. Sadly, our knowledge of them is very limited.
 
Thanks again, Red Leg. V much appreciated. Should our paths ever cross, I look forward to at least being able to spot you a good drink. I have to say that ever since I joined this free website that I have spent an extraordinary sum of money on safaris, hunts, rifles, books, and gear. I've loved every minute of it, too.
 
The first thing to remember is that form follows function. The guns and rifles of Great Britain were developed to support the functional needs of the British sportsman - both in the UK and in the colonies - particularly India and East Africa. The same was true of Germany and Austria (also France and Belgium - both of which produced excellent guns and rifles). It is important to remember that the German/Austrian colonial market collapsed with the end of WWI in 1918. That had a major effect on Continental development of dangerous game rifles.

In the UK, shotgun hunting was largely defined by the driven hunt - primarily grouse. The English game gun was created to accommodate that specific set of challenges; fast inbound birds, presenting targets near and far. It is why the traditional English SxS is choked very open on the right and fairly tight on the left in order to provide that instant choice. Guns for "rough hunting" - for walking up game or shooting decoying pigeons, etc - typically mirrored the game gun, but were usually of simpler and less expensive design for the farmers and small landowners who purchased and used them.

The rifle for hunting in the UK was largely defined by deer stalking. There are many exceptions, but that solution was typically found in either a falling block single (the Gibbs or Alex Henry are quintessential) or a medium bore bolt action. Those bolt actions and barreled actions were usually sourced from mauser. But one also finds Mannlicher Schoenauers and repurposed Lee and P-14 Enfields built as medium bore stalking rifles and carrying prestigious English names. The .275 (7x57) was the classic choice, though the .308 has gained a great modern following.

Again, there are exceptions. For instance, there were a whole class of rifles used for pests that are called "rook" rifles. These were built on falling block, Martini, and break-open designs and were chambered in what we would consider "pistol" cartridges.

Georgian taste was restrained, and this notion of minimalism but unsurpassed quality manifested itself in British stock design - essentially nothing present that didn't contribute to accurate shot placement.

Like the British gunmaker, the Continental gunmakers delivered designs to meet the needs of their customers. The German/Austrian hunter also participated in drive hunts. However these were often lines of beaters and guns marching across fields. Other times game was pushed toward them, but the bag was typically mixed. A hunter could be presented with a flushing pheasant, Hungarian partridge, a European hare (weighing as much 8-10 lbs), or a wild boar, and all within the span of a few minutes. Guns for such hunting tended to be robust, tightly choked, and with dimensions more like a rifle than an English SxS. Combination guns were extremely popular and useful. Unlike his deer stalking colleague in the UK, the German or Austrian spent far more time in high-seats. On the typical revier (lease), the German hunter would have a detailed shooting plan requiring the selective take of age groups and sexes of deer. He thus spent days in blinds (being certain a particular doe is barren takes skill and effort), and was also constantly on the lookout for foxes, feral cats, martin, etc. for which a load of shot was far better choice. Combination guns reigned supreme. "Bockbuchsflinte" (shotgun over a rifle) or drillings (SxS shotgun over rifle) were the most common. They allowed the instant shot selection of whatever was most appropriate for the animal that appeared. Drillings were also extremely useful on drive hunts where wild boar might be encountered.

The use of a wide range of shot sizes led to the development of very strong actions with numerous locking mechanisms. Critics often denigrate these wonderful guns as over engineered, but they are robust and perfect for their intended use. The trigger plate action became as common in central Europe as the Anson & Deeley did in the UK. The Kirsten locking system was ideal for OU's and very strong. The transition from OU shotgun or Bockbuchsflinte to OU double rifle was easy and Austria and Germany built many wonderful doubles in this form (far more than the British did SxS double rifles). It was also a very easy step to drop everything but the rifle barrel creating the beautiful single shots we find today.

Hunting rifles were also medium caliber for essentially the same game as the UK. Stylistic differences were mainly found in the stocks. An exception were the petit Mannlicher Shoenauers that were created for Alpine hunting and the large number of 9.3x74R OU rifles which were so effective on boar and red stag in the thick cover of Central Europe (compared to the needs of the British stalker in the Scottish highlands).

Because Germany lost its German Southwest (Namibia) and German East (Tanzania) African colonies at the end of the First World War, much dangerous game rifle development ended. When Americans first appeared in Africa in numbers between the wars, it was the British interpretation of a dangerous game rifle that awaited them in the hands of their stalwart white hunter. It was either a heavy double or a robust mauser-based bolt action. Had Germany retained its colonies, I have no doubt we would consider a heavy OU double rifle every bit as "proper" as the English interpretation of dangerous game rifle, and our list of regularly used dangerous game cartridges would include a number of now nearly extinct metrics.

This is barely a Cliffsnotes "history." but the divergent but still parallel development makes sense when we remember form always follows function.

There is a lot of literature on English guns and rifles; much of it recent due to the resurgence of interest in traditional English rifles and SxS's.

Unfortunately, there is very little on the German/Austrian gunmakers. Part of this is, of course, the language issue. But there is comparatively little in German either. Unlike the London and Birmingham makers whose ledgers often remain and about whom many of the current craftsman have personal knowledge, the German gunmaking guild was largely destroyed by the second World War. Many records were in Suhl, which was taken by the Soviets. What wasn't looted, expatriated, or deliberately destroyed was simply lost in the chaos following defeat. Individual gunmakers and craftsmen were killed in uniform or under the relentless bombing campaign. One of the better resources is the German Gun Collectors Association http://www.germanguns.com/.

With respect to British firearms, anything by Diggory Hadoke, Gough Thomas, and Geoffrey Boothroyd is worth owning. Donald Dallas's "The British Sporting Gun and Rifle" is a excellent overview as is Richard Akehurst's "Game Guns and Rifles". Terry Wieland is an American who has written extensively on fine guns with much attention to the British.

I probably have at least two dozen volumes dealing with British shooting, firearms, and gunmakers in my library, and perhaps only three or four on the subject of continental firearms. The guns produced prior to WWII in Germany were as fine as anything produced in the United Kingdom. Sadly, our knowledge of them is very limited.


Thank you for all the good information, and history lesson. It's always a good day when I can learn something new, interesting and useful.
 
Thanks again, Red Leg. V much appreciated. Should our paths ever cross, I look forward to at least being able to spot you a good drink. I have to say that ever since I joined this free website that I have spent an extraordinary sum of money on safaris, hunts, rifles, books, and gear. I've loved every minute of it, too.
It is truly a fine madness. I look forward to that drink. Come to Texas and I’ll spot you.
 

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