Double Rifle Triggers

Discussion in 'Double Rifles' started by Gwbman, Jun 29, 2015.

  1. zephyr

    zephyr AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    308
    Video/Photo:
    9
    Likes Received:
    265
    Location:
    Vermont
    Velo Dog ...
    You friggin slayed me this morn with a (Right Left) whilst reading your Jane Fonda line. Thanks for the smile..
     
    Velo Dog likes this.

  2. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    May 6, 2009
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    124
    Member of:
    Double Rifle Shooter's Society, Life NAHC, NRA,SCI
    Hunted:
    Us, Canada,Zambia, Zimbabwe, South America
    Gentlemen there are clues to which trigger should be pulled first by the way a double rifle is set up with a single non-selective trigger!


    On a side by side double rifle with a single non-selective the lock system is ro always fire the right barrel first, and the second pull fires the left barrel. On an over under double rifle with a single non-selective trigger pulling the trigger always fires the bottom barrel first, with the second pull firing the top barrel.


    Then you have a S/S double rifle with two triggers with one of the triggers having a “SET TRIGGER” converting that trigger to a hair trigger, and the set trigger is always on the front trigger or the right barrel unless the rifle is for a left hander where the left trigger is up front then the set trigger will be on the left trigger.


    Additionally, the trigger pull on a S/S double will be set withy a lighter pull weight than the left trigger and the back trigger with a heavier pull weight. This is because the first shot is the one where the most accuracy is for the all important first shot. On an O/U double with double triggers and one “SET TRIGGER” that will be on the front trigger that fires the bottom barrel which is most in line with the center of gravity of the rifle and is the barrel that will be fired most if only one shot is fired.


    All this would lead one to believe the makers would have designed these rifles to fire the front trigger first as a rule. That is the reason when you buy an old double rifle the right barrel on a S/S will be worn more than the left, and the bottom barrel will be more worn that the top barrel on a O/U double.


    If you will note, most big bore doubles regardless of O/U or S/S there will never be a set trigger on these rifles because many want to carry the rifle with a soft in the right barrel on a S/S, or in the bottom barrel on a O/U rifle, and a solid in the other barrel. This is because the shooter wants a quality soft or expanding bullet for his first shot, and a solid for the going away or charging shot for the other barrel. Again, the right barrel on a S/S and the bottom barrel on a O/U.


    If both barrels are loaded the same, I always pull the front trigger first unless a solid is called for in the other barrel!
     

  3. spike.t

    spike.t AH ENABLER SPONSOR Since 2013 AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    8,219
    Video/Photo:
    316
    Likes Received:
    5,335
    Member of:
    sci int, basc,wpaz
    Hunted:
    zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england
    "Additionally, the trigger pull on a S/S double will be set withy a lighter pull weight than the left trigger and the back trigger with a heavier pull weight."

    sorry @DUGABOY1 dont agree. on my doubles unless i a have an unsensative finger i never found any difference on the weight between front and rear triggers. i will bow to your greater knowledge and usage of doubles, but possibly when using them and shooting at something thats the reason i couldnt tell.....
     

  4. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,034
    Video/Photo:
    231
    Likes Received:
    8,344
    Location:
    Texas Hill Country
    Member of:
    SCI DSC life memberships / NRA Patron Life
    Hunted:
    Mexico, Namibia, RSA, Germany, Austria, Argentina, Canada, Mozambique, Spain, US (15 states)
    He is correct. The rear trigger on doubles, at least English and continental ones, is traditionally set one half to one pound heavier. That is pretty common knowledge. Obviously, any quality Double could have been tweaked by a gunsmith changing the original trigger pulls. I have at least a dozen older sxs guns and rifles in my safe and each of them with double triggers is set up with a slightly heavier rear pull.
     

  5. spike.t

    spike.t AH ENABLER SPONSOR Since 2013 AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    8,219
    Video/Photo:
    316
    Likes Received:
    5,335
    Member of:
    sci int, basc,wpaz
    Hunted:
    zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england
    ok Red Leg thanks . as i said when shooting them i have never noticed a difference, but now you both have me wondering and i am going to have to set up a heath robinson thing to check this out :)
     

  6. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    May 6, 2009
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    124
    Member of:
    Double Rifle Shooter's Society, Life NAHC, NRA,SCI
    Hunted:
    Us, Canada,Zambia, Zimbabwe, South America
    Thanks for the reply Spike! Your rifles may be set up differently, but I doubt they are. The reason is two fold, #1 is the lighter pull gives a better feel, for a rested precision first shot on a standing animal, and #2 the back trigger being slightly heavier is to defend against a strumming accidental discharge of the left barrel by the trigger finger touching the back trigger under the rifles recoil. This applies mostly to large bore rifles, but in my experience it is evident on even small bore double trigger rifles. I have never seen a big bore double rifle with a set trigger on the front trigger, and the reason is, if the front trigger is accidently set and you fire the back trigger it will set off the front (right barrel ) trigger as well.
    However if the rifle is set up with a single trigger certainly there will be no difference in the pull weight for the other barrel, because there is no way to strum an accidental discharge, and if the single trigger is not selective the trigger will always fire the right barrel first.

    Unless you are specifically looking for it the weight difference may not be evident, but I'd bet my next retirement check you will find it with you pull indicator!

    By the way I checked out your website, and Zambia is my favorite country to hunt. I've hunted buffalo, hippo and plains game in the upper, and lower Lupande concessions on the Luangwa river several years ago. Two animals I didn't take are the sable and puku, and have regretted it ever since! Your sable look great!
    .........Good hunting
    ............................................Mac
     
    spike.t likes this.

  7. Velo Dog

    Velo Dog AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,883
    Video/Photo:
    58
    Likes Received:
    4,080
    Location:
    Anchorage
    Member of:
    NRA Life Member.
    Hunted:
    South Africa 3 times, Namibia 2 times, USA - most western states including Alaska and Hawaii.
    I have never noticed any difference in pull weights between the front and rear trigger on any expensive double (rifle or shotgun either one that I have fired) but I have noticed it in cheap shotguns, such as the old Savage 311 model shotgun and one very cheap Spanish double shotgun I had (although I very much like the medium grade to higher grade Spanish shotguns I have seen).
    I do not remember any more for sure if those cheapies had a heavier rear or heavier front trigger but I just recall a very noticeable difference from trigger to trigger on those two specific ones.

    It is likely that I simply never noticed the difference in trigger pulls on any decent double rifle I have fired, because I did not look very hard for it.

    Evidently my not noticing the difference in trigger pulls from front to back on quality doubles proves that my first grade teacher was right when she said I was "slow".
    Her concern was at least partly in regards to my not understanding why the other children would be interested in chasing a ball across the play ground (Imagine how puzzling it is for me now when I see grown men fascinated by chasing a ball across the grass - LOL) .
    If she only knew that I would go on to not notice the rear trigger of well made doubles has a half pound or more pull weight difference from the front trigger.
    She would have put me on the short bus straight away.

    At any rate, I'm going to pay more attention to trigger pull from trigger to trigger now, starting with my Heym double, by means of snap caps.

    Seems like I learn sumpthin new every day, whether I want to or not.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015

  8. Pondoro

    Pondoro AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    678
    Video/Photo:
    58
    Likes Received:
    702
    Hunted:
    Norway, Sweden, Namibia and Botswana
    What the world has come to....Velo Dog, now we suspect you to have a secret crush on Hanoi Jane... :K Tongue: :Yuck: :A Gathering:
     
    Velo Dog likes this.

  9. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,034
    Video/Photo:
    231
    Likes Received:
    8,344
    Location:
    Texas Hill Country
    Member of:
    SCI DSC life memberships / NRA Patron Life
    Hunted:
    Mexico, Namibia, RSA, Germany, Austria, Argentina, Canada, Mozambique, Spain, US (15 states)
    Velo, I shoot pigeon guns a lot (as in box birds) and have a grand total of two smiths in the country who I trust to send them to for work. Almost all are pre WWII and several are pre WWI. One of the big deals with these "target" guns is to make sure the trigger pulls aren't changed if a spring is being repaired or some other action work (even cleaning) is being done. It seems sort of silly, but correctly anticipating the shot is a pretty big deal with purses on the line. I just had two of my favorites given a thorough action cleaning by JJ Perodeaux. They are a 1908 William Cashmore "Nitro" and a 1936 Merkel O/U Sidelock - both purpose built pigeon guns. Both have 3.5 lb front triggers and 4 lb rear. Standard English and continental "best" bird guns are all set up the same way (unless a client specifies otherwise) though most of mine probably average 4 on the front trigger which is typical of a field gun.
     
    Velo Dog likes this.

  10. Velo Dog

    Velo Dog AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,883
    Video/Photo:
    58
    Likes Received:
    4,080
    Location:
    Anchorage
    Member of:
    NRA Life Member.
    Hunted:
    South Africa 3 times, Namibia 2 times, USA - most western states including Alaska and Hawaii.
    If you gleaned THAT from my swipe at her spoiled rich communist ass last Tuesday, I wonder what my first grade teacher would have said about you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015
    Pondoro likes this.

  11. Velo Dog

    Velo Dog AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,883
    Video/Photo:
    58
    Likes Received:
    4,080
    Location:
    Anchorage
    Member of:
    NRA Life Member.
    Hunted:
    South Africa 3 times, Namibia 2 times, USA - most western states including Alaska and Hawaii.
    Hi Red Leg,

    I totally agree with you that JJ Perideau is one of the world's greatest artisans of double barrel and multiple barrel guns and rifles.
    I had him claw mount a .375 H&H Merkel double rifle for me and I swear it looked as if it was built that way from the factory.

    I have always been drawn to SxS shotguns but a Pre-War Merkel O/U with DT is definitely something I would be very proud to own.
    I am envious of the side lock one you have.

    Currently I do not own a decent SxS shotgun as I sold my very pristine Pre-WW I Parker VH 12 bore choked at Imp cylinder and Modified, to help pay off one of my Africa trips.

    Regarding the difference in trigger pull weights on doubles, as stated before, I am going to start paying more attention from now on.

    Cheers,
    Velo Dog.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015

  12. Pondoro

    Pondoro AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    678
    Video/Photo:
    58
    Likes Received:
    702
    Hunted:
    Norway, Sweden, Namibia and Botswana
    :ROFLMAO:
     
    Velo Dog likes this.

  13. Pondoro

    Pondoro AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    678
    Video/Photo:
    58
    Likes Received:
    702
    Hunted:
    Norway, Sweden, Namibia and Botswana
    I prefer S x S shotguns myself, that said there is no doubt that the germans made a lot of high quality shotguns before WW2...and rifles for that matter..

    I feel incredibly lucky to own a Purdey game gun, 12 -65, 28" barrels, cylinder/improved cyl., ejectors..

    Never thought I would own one, got it very cheap from an old collector who wanted it to end up in a good home.. That gun is on its 3rd century (made 1896..proofed for nitro april 1913..), still tight as a vault door...I enjoy it every fall in our mountains hunting grouse with my Gordon setter..
     
    Velo Dog and spike.t like this.

  14. spike.t

    spike.t AH ENABLER SPONSOR Since 2013 AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    8,219
    Video/Photo:
    316
    Likes Received:
    5,335
    Member of:
    sci int, basc,wpaz
    Hunted:
    zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england
    hi Mac @DUGABOY1 no single trigger for me as according to my son i need all the exercise i can get!!;) great you love zambia and i think for you as long as you bring one or two of those doubles ;) we can make a plan for a sable......it would be great to have you come out and do/talk/bullshit double stuff . we can also go fishing and drink the odd quality beverage :)
     
    Velo Dog likes this.

  15. Lyleedward

    Lyleedward New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    I have a 500 Merkel it will double fire sometimes if u use rear trigger 1st. I have been told that the front trigger is lighter. I pull the front all the time now and have had no problem.
     

  16. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH ENABLER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2015
    Messages:
    2,465
    Video/Photo:
    68
    Likes Received:
    2,702
    Location:
    North America
    Member of:
    NRA Life Benefactor, Trout Unlimited, Safari Club International
    Not a diplomatic answer, but here it is:

    The Africans do it wrong, back trigger first. Why? Poor guns and poor maintenance means their guns might double fire, so they shoot the back and then fumble looking for the front trigger.

    Correct way as designed: Front trigger, right barrel, first. Then you know where the next trigger is and can find it instantly for the second shot. If you wingshoot with doubles, this is all second nature as the left barrel is the second/farther/greater choke shot.

    I don’t care that PHs do it wrong, but it does drive me crazy when they try to tell others that is the correct way...it’s not. Service your guns so you’re not so afraid they’ll double you can’t operate it correctly!
     
    Red Leg likes this.

  17. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,034
    Video/Photo:
    231
    Likes Received:
    8,344
    Location:
    Texas Hill Country
    Member of:
    SCI DSC life memberships / NRA Patron Life
    Hunted:
    Mexico, Namibia, RSA, Germany, Austria, Argentina, Canada, Mozambique, Spain, US (15 states)
    Exactly correct. Just like a SxS shotgun. I have to look to know whether I am shooting two triggers or one. I have never had one double by accidently hitting the rear one. Worn sear yes, accidently hitting the rear trigger - never.

    Rear trigger is normally set 1/2 to 1 pond heavier than the front.
     

  18. CAustin

    CAustin AH ENABLER BRONZE SUPPORTER AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    13,128
    Video/Photo:
    215
    Likes Received:
    9,371
    Member of:
    Courtney Hunting Club, NRA Life Member, SCI Kansas City Chapter
    Hunted:
    South Africa, KwaZulu Natal, Kalahari, Northwest, Limpopo, Gauteng, APNR Kruger Area. USA Georgia, South Carolina, Arkansas, New Mexico, North Carolina and Texas
    Tell me more about the bumper for the trigger guard please? I have strummed my double once and I have also split my second finger open. I have watched a fellow on YouTube name J Alan Smith who seems to wear a pair of leather shooting gloves. I bought some but haven’t tried them yet at the range. I have started pulling the rear trigger first to avoid the possibility of strumming the two triggers.
     

  19. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,034
    Video/Photo:
    231
    Likes Received:
    8,344
    Location:
    Texas Hill Country
    Member of:
    SCI DSC life memberships / NRA Patron Life
    Hunted:
    Mexico, Namibia, RSA, Germany, Austria, Argentina, Canada, Mozambique, Spain, US (15 states)
    I have fingers that would be the envy of a pianist - or maybe a proctologist - so they don't come in contact with the rear of the trigger guard. But if yours do, most gun shops in the UK carry pads - just looked and found this one on ebay https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Bisley-Finger-Trigger-Guard-/323868946570?hash=item4b6817f08a Some use screw attachment, some use a pressure clip (better - less chance to mar the guard). In any case they attach to the back side of the trigger guard. And I always wear gloves - at least on my left hand - when firing a double. Held properly, the off hand thumb and forefinger are in contact with the barrels. Can get warm quickly - particularly a shotgun.
     

    Attached Files:

    CAustin likes this.

Share This Page

 
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice