Double rifle for a child

tim416

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Bushbuck,
I may be mistaken but are'nt you in NH? If so, Cabelas in Scarborough, Maine has one of the Sabatti doubles in 45-70. I was handling it a few weeks ago. It was priced at around $2900.00. I think it weighed in at around eight pounds. May be too heavy for what you need but you could take your daughter with you and have her see how it feels to her.
 

Bushbuck

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Hi Tim,
Yes I am in NH. Currently going thru withdrawals as it has been 4 months since I have cast a fly in some of my favorite spots in Maine.. I am going to take a trip over to the coast soon to take a look at a couple places. I agree the weight is more than I was hoping for, but I am also curious to see the size of that gun in my daughters hands. thanks for the heads up.
 

tim416

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Casting a fly up here right now is no problem, getting it wet is the issue. The water's kinda "haahd" up "heya" right now.
 

Bushbuck

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Yup, wont be long we'll be headin up-ta-camp as Bob Marley would say. Gonna listen to the Mr. Man song on the way..
 

tim416

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Keep talking like that and we'll never know your "from away"
 

Bushbuck

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Keep talking like that and we'll never know your "from away"

Thats one of my favorite lines. You know I have been fortunate to hunt in many places across the country and around the globe. Whever I hear people talk about loving free range hunting, I always tell them the true test of a hunter and there skills at free range is if they can score a 250 in the North woods.
 

DUGABOY1

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I have always wanted to go on a hunt in Africa with a double rifle. My 10 year old Daughter would really like to join me on this hunt. My idea was to find a 410 shotgun for her and have it custom fitted with iron sites. I am open to the idea of a small caliber double, but I have not seen any small enough. I am considering this hunt for 2012 so we have this year to practice and get her familiar with the gun. She is going on a bear hunt this Sept and will be deer hunting this fall.

I really would like to stay with the side by side concept. Do any of you have any experience with this? What models of 410 shotguns do you suggest. Do you have another idea?

Thank You,
Marc


The 410 shotgun will train her very quickly to use a double trigger gun properly, even as a shotgun! The biggest problem with someone new to double rifles is they tend to try to pull the same trigger twice. A double barreled shotgun is very good training to avoid this. That is good because if she will be using a double rifle later in life, she needs to learn with double triggers. No real double rifle that may be used for anything dangerous should have a single trigger!

That being said I very much doubt the little double barreled 410 shotgun, or any shotgun will regulate with slugs. In my experience the shotgun will rarely hit a 55gallon drum with both barrels at 40 feet with the same sight setting, but stranger things have happened. Still the 410 shotgun is a fine idea for initial double trigger , and instinctive shooting, which is the basis of shooting a double rifle properly. The iron sights on the little shotgun will also train her to develop good sight acquisition very quickly. The recoil will be about the same as a light loaded 30-30.

I built a little double rifle on a 410 Lurona shotgun action a few years ago and chambered it for 218 BEE with 22 inch barrels, and regulated with 50 gr Nosler spitzers at 2800 fps. That was a real pleasure to shoot all day, and was deadly on coyotes, down to jackrabbits. Recoil was almost imperceptible.

Bailey Bradshaw will make you a double rifle for her that she can use for the rest of her life and IMO, if I went that way I would go with a 30-30 double regulated with 150 gr factory ammo, and she can use it for deer, or even black bear over bait, and just about all the smaller plains game in Africa! I was shooting a 12 ga single shot shotgun at the age of six, and I doubt I weighed more than 70 pounds, so a 10 yer old can handle the 30-30 quite well, in a 7 pound double rifle, and once she gets used to the 410 shotgun, the 30-30 will just come naturally to her! Bailey will make it to fit her properly.

Even if she doesn’t have a double rifle I would buy her a little single shot break top rifle in a small chambering and take her along. She will never forget it! I started all my four kids with a single shot 22 lr, and a single shot 20 ga shotgun at age six. I carried the ammo, and they carried the rifle till they learned where to point the rifle I handed them one round at a time! The youngest is 49 yrs old, and the oldest will be 54 yrs old in June, and they all still shoot!
 

Grey Morel

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Why not purchase an entry level .410 side by side with removable chokes, and then simply have a pair of rifled tubes made up to boost the accuracy of the available drag-stabilized slugs?

This would allow your daughter to learn the ropes of a double gun, and maximize the potential of the .410 bore for use on small and thin skinned medium game without breaking the bank. I may be wrong, but a pair of said chokes should only add $200 or less to the price.

I've been considering doing the same thing to a 20 gauge until I can save up for an RBL 'Professional'.
 

Mark H. Young

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I think with a young shooter that they need to be successful early on to hold their interest. The inaccuracy of the 410 double is going to be very discouraging to a child.

Mark
 

James.Grage

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I believe that Mark Young is spot on with the 410..

Grey Morel - the 410 would shoot 45 colt's if it had cylinder choke tubes, however it would not be very accurate.

To talk about adding inserts you are talking a chunk of change...and i am not sure what caliber you are looking at... usually you will need the barrel back bored to correct deformities and imperfections ( this cost is around $300) ... the tubes will need to be fitted for each side...now if the barrel thickness is not sufficient in thickness no reputable gun smith will touch it...there are only a couple in the states that do this and i am not sure that they do rifle barrel inserts...

Why not purchase an entry level .410 side by side with removable chokes, and then simply have a pair of rifled tubes made up to boost the accuracy of the available drag-stabilized slugs?

This would allow your daughter to learn the ropes of a double gun, and maximize the potential of the .410 bore for use on small and thin skinned medium game without breaking the bank. I may be wrong, but a pair of said chokes should only add $200 or less to the price.

I've been considering doing the same thing to a 20 gauge until I can save up for an RBL 'Professional'.

I think with a young shooter that they need to be successful early on to hold their interest. The inaccuracy of the 410 double is going to be very discouraging to a child.

Mark
 

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i dont know if you have thought of looking outside the usa, but paul roberts in london had a couple of doubles in his wild boar section. one is a zanardi in 8x57jrs that weighs 9lbs 9oz including the detachable scope for approx $4,500.00, and a bernadelli in 9.3x74r that weighs 8lbs and is approx $6000.00. his web site is jroberts-gunmakers.co.uk. if he has sold them he probably could find similar, possibly in 7x65r which would probably be the better choice for your daughter. i dont think you will get a double that weighs much less than 8lbs. at least this way you get a nice rifle that she can keep.
 

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Paul Roberts is a famous gunmaker, I met him in CAR this year. I order a 450 Rigby. I am sure he is able to find a good weapon for any body..
 

EDELWEISS

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Im so new to double rifles that I hesitate to respond; BUT Im not new to wanting one. First I think the "double shotguns dont regulate" is a bit over stated, or at least accuracy is too much of an issue. I have a 410 Baikal double that was good enuf to make adding a cheap set of express sights and even a scope mount. Second at the very least a scope can be set for the first barrel. Ive also got a 10ga SxS that Im working on as a "Gauge Gun". Before I could afford real double rifles a SxS shotgun was the best I could do, so you played around until you found sweet loads and distances.

Next the Baikal Coach Guns were available at one time with 45-70 OR 30-30 barrel inserts. They arent exactly true doubles but they can be regulated to some degree with the pieces included. The guns are only 20inches and the inserts add some weight but they are "DR's" after a fashion. Baikal also made O/U guns (copies of the Valmets) in 223, 308, and 30-06. They certainly arent H&H quality and heck they arent even Sabatti's but they are doubles, and they run about $400.oo You have to think of them like T34 tanks, theyre cheap and they do the job.

That brings to mind the Baikal/Remington SxS. They are available in 45-70 at well under $1000. I just saw one on Gunbroker for $750.oo. With COWBOY loads the recoil should be light enough as the guns arent particularly heavy. And once again, they "aint pretty but they do work.

I think Double Gun HQ has some noce 20ga "shot and ball" guns that ARE regulated for slugs! They run $2000; but its a good starting point.

Im kinda new, so I hope I havent stepped on toooooo many toes.
 

DUGABOY1

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Im so new to double rifles that I hesitate to respond; BUT Im not new to wanting one.

The rest of your post below confirms the above statement!

First I think the "double shotguns don't regulate" is a bit over stated, or at least accuracy is too much of an issue.

Double barreled shotguns only overlap 30 inch patterns, and for every double barreled shotgun that will place slugs from both barrels inside a 12 inch bull at 40 yds there will be 100 that will not hit within 2 feet with both barrels' shots! "SHOTGUNS DO NOT REGULATE!"



I have a 410 Baikal double that was good enuf to make adding a cheap set of express sights and even a scope mount. Second at the very least a scope can be set for the first barrel.

Was good enough? What is good enough? Setting a scope or iron sights for one barrel is not REGULATING! You may as well simply use a single barrel shot gun that patterns slugs with that barrel. A double rifle is supposed to REGULATE BOTH BARRELS to shoot side by side at the same elevation no matter the range!

A double shotgun is good training for learning the use of two triggers, and instinctive shooting with shot shells, but double barreled shotguns do NOT regulate It you take any shotgun and place a clean target at 30 yds with an aiming point in the middle the target and fire with a rest holding on the center of that target, then measure the pattern and find the center of that pattern! Do this on separate targets with each barrel, and then compare the two centers
of each barrel in relation the aiming point and 90 % of the time the centers of each barrels pattern will be at a drastically different point on the target than the other barrel! Now do the same with three slugs from each barrel the same way and fine the real center of each barrel's group on it's on target in relation the aiming point on each target! I think this will open some eyes!

The only way to regulate the barrels to shoot side by side at the same elevation at a given range is to place wedges between the barrels and move them back and fourth till they shoot properly!

If you take the barrel set off a real double rifle and place the lugs in a padded vice, with the sights on the center of a bull at the distance engraved on the back sight, then take two empty cartridge cases with no bullet or primer, and look through the primer holes like a peep sight. What you bill see is the RIGHT barrel will be looking at a point that is LEFT and low of the aiming point! The LEFT barrel will be looking at a point that is LOW and on the RIGHT of the aiming point.

These barrels have to be this way so that when the rifle is fired with the sight on the aiming point the barrel being fired moves UP and away from the other barrel while the bullet is traveling down the bore so that when the bullet exits the muzzle it will be pointing at a point that is just on it's own side of the point where the sights pointing when the trigger was pulled. This is the way the barrels have to be to account for recoil muzzle flip, and Barrel time .

Shotguns do not need to be that precise and so only need to have their centers close enough to make the 30-inch patterns over lay each other well enough to hit a bird that is someplace within than 30-inch pattern at 30 yards. I don't think anyone would want to go into the weeds with a wounded leopard, or lion with bullets that shot not closer together than 15 inches apart! Do you?
 

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