Dangerous Game Rifle Caliber for an Enthusiast

Captain Munro, it is true what one member posted about things being easier to afford over time. At 77 I'm still buying rifles. One of my more recent acquisitions was a BRNO ZKK 602 in 375 H&H. BRNO made firearms for several hundred years before folding. In Europe they are fairly common. African PH(s) swear by them. True, their safety works backwards from American rifles, but that can easily be remedied. Fourfive8 posted an article recently that included some info on the BRNO ZKK 602, check it out. https://www.africahunting.com/threads/2k-4k-rifles.62592/post-765841 IMHO the target speaks for itself.
 
This made for some good morning reading! Any idea why CZ stopped production of the 550? I went to look at their website a couple weeks ago and saw the news.
They joined the mainstream of commercial gun factories, and invested in automated producation line, based on CNC machinery.

Once, in the eastern block they at least had cheap labor. But now, in EU, things change.

Secondly, it could be worn out old machinery - but, note, renewal of machinery is not the only answer for mauser type action, as it needs skilled labor, and man hours as well in order to keep production.

This all makes costs very high. Then, consider two lines of production, for medium lenght action and for magnum action? O, man! Any sane economy prudent gun making managment will not go this route.

So, they made decision, similar what Winchester made in 1964.
They (CZ) went to push feed rifle production. New Model cz 557.

Then, they also phased out magnum action line of production.

Then, they heavily reduced calibers,in new CZ 557 down to 308 win and 30-06. (and maybe 6.5 CM for some models)

Then, they reduced CZ 527 (short action) down to two calibers in production 223 rem, and 7.62x39

And they are now focusing on pistol market, with ever increasing number of models in pistol line.

22lr rifle production still holds acceptable quality.

And, latest news: they bought american Colt company. (Earlier, CZ USA had Dan Wesson as well)

What will come out of all this, I dont know. But I doubt, that new baby of next decade will be affordable CRF rifle, by CZ.

In the meantime you have, following factories making mauser 98 rifles, clones. Medium action.

Zastava m70, medium action, up to 375 H&H and 458 win mag. Zastava keeps production traditionally, higher manhours dont bother them much because: they employ the cheapest labor in gun making world, plus, lower quality control standard (since 1990-is), older guns are good, newer guns, is matter of luck what you will get. So rifles keep getting out from production line.

Winchester m70, well, I cant say anymore that it has already been said about new in m70, made in portugal. Its an option.

Then,
Voere - Austrian company, still advertises m98 type of hunting rifles, for acceptable working man prices, medium action, but only up to 9.3x62 caliber, while 458 or 375 are not available.

Then
Ruger guide gun. With DG calibers available in 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger.

And finally CZ rifle, 2nd hand CZ 550, or ZKK line.

(start looking around, if you plan to buy)

Then we have all this modern hype about high end push feed rifles, modular rifles, etc in all kinds of calibers, which sounds interesting and way to go for modern hunting men (and novellle class), and probably it is OK, but keep in mind that companies such as Holland and Holland, Westley Richards, Rigby, and others of similar reputation like continental Austrian Ferlach workshops, make exlusively m98 action in their workshops, for the worlds elite and royalties. (I wonder why is that???, since other actions are so good??? well I guess I will never know)

Bottom line, mauser system is expensive to produce, and gun makers cannot compete in demanding market with mauser action, while in the same time, cheaper push feed models are almost quite as relible and possibly more accurate. (endless subject of numeorus debates on the forum, and elswhere)

Dangerous game hunters market is comparativley small, in entire hunting industry market, so mauser 98 is melting to remain in higher end DG market class. (for those who know what m98 action really is, and are willing to pay for it)

Recently, Mauser company (part of group of companies Mauser-Blaser-Sauer), has restarted production od mauser 98, including magnum action.
Its definetley good news, but the rifle commands high price. starting at 7-8k eur, and have seen them in more then 10k range.

Rigby, after its short american affair, came back to UK, is bought (if I am not mistaken) by same group of companies Mauser-Sauer-Blaser, and once again is importing original mauser actions, for their wonderful, fine DG bolt actions, as they did traditionally at the beggining of XX century.

Thats the present situation.
You want CRF, magnum, for DG? Start looking now for 2nd hand options, or start saving money.
 
Captain Munro, it is true what one member posted about things being easier to afford over time. At 77 I'm still buying rifles. One of my more recent acquisitions was a BRNO ZKK 602 in 375 H&H. BRNO made firearms for several hundred years before folding. In Europe they are fairly common. African PH(s) swear by them. True, their safety works backwards from American rifles, but that can easily be remedied. Fourfive8 posted an article recently that included some info on the BRNO ZKK 602, check it out. https://www.africahunting.com/threads/2k-4k-rifles.62592/post-765841 IMHO the target speaks for itself.
Yeah, that target looks pretty darn good.
 
Keep looking at that Caprivi. They are wonderful, perfectly balanced rifles.
There was one on GI with a Swaro scope for under $4K. Perfect first medium bore rifle.
 
I have a Winchester M70 in 416 Rem and it is a decent rifle. I understand the allure of big bores as I also own a 470NE double. However, there is no denying that 375H&H is a more practical choice for anywhere other than Africa and north Australia. Far be it for me to try to talk someone out of buying a big bore rifle but I'd give 375 a serious consideration. While it is a medium rather than a big bore it is in fact a very practical cartridge. If I was so unfortunate as to only have one rifle for the rest of my life it'd be in a 375H&H chambering.
I agree. Go with the .375. You will use it more and it is classic Africa!
 
THREE SEVEN FIVE Not even close.

A .375 is the most versatile rifle in Africa. I have several forties of various configurations, but when it is time to pack for a trip it is a .375 that I grab. Mine have taken many dozens of game animals ranging from tiny Suni to multiple cape buffalo. Moreover, it is a reasonably practical rifle to take bear or elk hunting in North America.

Moreover, if any cartridges' have souls born in Africa, then the .375 H&H leads that list. A .458 barely makes honorable mention.


And @Red Leg shut down the thread in a single post. Listen to @Red Leg.
 
When I considered getting a big bore- the largest I had used regularly was a 300 Wby, so getting a 375H&H seemed the obvious choice. So I got a pre-warM70 375. coincidental to this a M7 Alaskan 338 was offered to me and I accepted. But then (see Big Bore Addiction Thread) there seemed other cartridges needing homes. So a 375RUM, a 458 followed, then a 404 J and not long ago a 470 NE. It's to the point that the 375 just sits in the safe. If I go for NA elk etc I use the Alaskan. If I were to go after dangerous game, depending on location it would be the 404 or the 470. In addition there are non-expensive bullets to load reduced loads for all of the above except the 404 (which I get .427" bullets and size them down to .423", and 470 I use pistol bullets designed for the 480 Ruger. with any of them, including the 375 one can get bullets suitable for reduced loads and range practice. So my suggestion is to look closely at your intended uses, the 375 may be just an interim solution.
 
There was one on GI with a Swaro scope for under $4K. Perfect first medium bore rifle.
And that's from another Blaser owner.
 
I'll echo the majority opinion- 375 HH. If you are on a budget regards the rifle, there is really nothing you'll be hunting that needs more (and to be fair, 375 is legal for everything, so need is a bit of an overstatement). The HH has the length that you'll get used to cycling the bolt for a 458 should you get one some day.

Now if you are just wanting to have fun with a heavy-recoiling rifle and aren't concerned with practical use, get the 458 and some reloading gear and have at it!
450-400 DR
 
I hope this is the right section to post this thread...

I am a rifle enthusiast and I love the history behind African exploration, big game hunting, and rifles/cartridges. I was in a gun shop in Bedford, PA (Cove Creek Outfitters) one day and I was allowed to hand a 470NE Double rifle with the lowly price tag of $36,000.00. From that day onward, it was/is my goal to get one of those rifles.

BUT

I am just a government scientist with student loan debt...Fortunately for me, my soon to be fiancé, is willing to spend $2k on an engagement present for me. I know, lucky man here. With that budget in mind, I found new production rifle choices limited to Winchester Model 70 Safari Express and the Ruger Hawkeye African or Guide Gun. I love Ruger rifles, I have the Ruger Scout and it shoots like a dream, but the action on the Winchester is much smoother ( I have tested a few at the gun store). The Winchester is also offered in more traditional and non-proprietary cartridges.

My options for caliber, in the aforementioned rifles, would be 375H&H (the classic with a ton of history), 374 Ruger, 416 Remington Mag, 416 Ruger, and the 458 Win Mag. I am leaning towards the Winchester in 458 Win Mag to get the real big bore feel (and it seems right for the Winchester Model 70 to be chambered in a Winchester Cartridge), but I understand the practical merits of the 375 and the 416 (still big bore).

I have heard many good things about the Model 70 Safari Express as a good out of the box DG rifle. Is there anything else I should know to dissuade me?
I emailed Winchester and they told me the next run of these rifles would be out in early June, so I am watching all the dealers.

Is there any reason to pick the Ruger(s) over the Winchester? I like the ebony fore end, but I could get a custom stock for the Winchester down the road. No plastic stocks in my "hunting rifle battery".

Factory ammo cost comparison and availability?

Which of these cartridge's are the most versatile in for re-loading (bullet selection, availability, price, etc.)? I am not a re-loader yet, but will be eventually due to ammo costs. I am aware of the price tag there. I read a few forum posts about the 458 having re-loading versatility.

Recoil wise, the most I have encountered was a Ruger No. 1 in 45-70 shooting the Hornady LeverEvolution 325 grains off the bench. Those pounded pretty hard from the lightweight rifle, but I could shoot 4-5 rounds in a row on the bench. How would any of these calibers compare to that? I know the Ruger African and Model 70 are heavier firearms, but the rounds they fire have moor oomph than the old 45-70. I also do not plan to scope them as they would be for fun.

In my search, I have also looked into the CZ 550 (now out of production), Montana Rifles (too expensive), and the Kimber Caprivi (also too expensive). I wish I was a rich man, because I would have a safe full of double rifles. Someday I may be able to afford something like a Sabatti Big Five!

Any tips for sighting in one of these bad boys? I know the bench is somewhere I do not want to spend alot of time...Or so I have read.

Your expert assistance will be greatly appreciated. I also hope I did not say anything ignorant in my post! I tried to do a ton of research on the matter.

Happy Hunting!
Another African tradition that has flattened virtually every species on the planet is the venerable old (but new) 404 Jeffery with a range of bullets 257gr - 450gr. 300gr & 350gr bullets available for the 404 can be loaded to copy the .375 H&H ergo two calibers in one. Below 300gr the .375 H&H is more versatile.
 
I hope this is the right section to post this thread...

I am a rifle enthusiast and I love the history behind African exploration, big game hunting, and rifles/cartridges. I was in a gun shop in Bedford, PA (Cove Creek Outfitters) one day and I was allowed to hand a 470NE Double rifle with the lowly price tag of $36,000.00. From that day onward, it was/is my goal to get one of those rifles.

BUT

I am just a government scientist with student loan debt...Fortunately for me, my soon to be fiancé, is willing to spend $2k on an engagement present for me. I know, lucky man here. With that budget in mind, I found new production rifle choices limited to Winchester Model 70 Safari Express and the Ruger Hawkeye African or Guide Gun. I love Ruger rifles, I have the Ruger Scout and it shoots like a dream, but the action on the Winchester is much smoother ( I have tested a few at the gun store). The Winchester is also offered in more traditional and non-proprietary cartridges.

My options for caliber, in the aforementioned rifles, would be 375H&H (the classic with a ton of history), 374 Ruger, 416 Remington Mag, 416 Ruger, and the 458 Win Mag. I am leaning towards the Winchester in 458 Win Mag to get the real big bore feel (and it seems right for the Winchester Model 70 to be chambered in a Winchester Cartridge), but I understand the practical merits of the 375 and the 416 (still big bore).

I have heard many good things about the Model 70 Safari Express as a good out of the box DG rifle. Is there anything else I should know to dissuade me?
I emailed Winchester and they told me the next run of these rifles would be out in early June, so I am watching all the dealers.

Is there any reason to pick the Ruger(s) over the Winchester? I like the ebony fore end, but I could get a custom stock for the Winchester down the road. No plastic stocks in my "hunting rifle battery".

Factory ammo cost comparison and availability?

Which of these cartridge's are the most versatile in for re-loading (bullet selection, availability, price, etc.)? I am not a re-loader yet, but will be eventually due to ammo costs. I am aware of the price tag there. I read a few forum posts about the 458 having re-loading versatility.

Recoil wise, the most I have encountered was a Ruger No. 1 in 45-70 shooting the Hornady LeverEvolution 325 grains off the bench. Those pounded pretty hard from the lightweight rifle, but I could shoot 4-5 rounds in a row on the bench. How would any of these calibers compare to that? I know the Ruger African and Model 70 are heavier firearms, but the rounds they fire have moor oomph than the old 45-70. I also do not plan to scope them as they would be for fun.

In my search, I have also looked into the CZ 550 (now out of production), Montana Rifles (too expensive), and the Kimber Caprivi (also too expensive). I wish I was a rich man, because I would have a safe full of double rifles. Someday I may be able to afford something like a Sabatti Big Five!

Any tips for sighting in one of these bad boys? I know the bench is somewhere I do not want to spend alot of time...Or so I have read.

Your expert assistance will be greatly appreciated. I also hope I did not say anything ignorant in my post! I tried to do a ton of research on the matter.

Happy Hunting!
Some other things to consider Cap'n, two absolute musts in a DG rifle; feeding and bullet. They must feed properly and the bullet must do the job, I don't care much what the machinery looks like. The reason I suggested the .404 Jeffery in another reply is when you look at the shape of the cartridge, it feeds into the chamber like a frantic well-oiled rat up a drainpipe. Also, a good range of proven bullets in Swift Woodleigh Norma to mention just a few. the excellent .375 H&H is the minimum (iirc) caliber you can use on DG in most if not all African countries. Get yourself a .375 and then perhaps go up in caliber from there - it's called the BBCD (Big Bore Collectors Disease)
 
Another African tradition that has flattened virtually every species on the planet is the venerable old (but new) 404 Jeffery with a range of bullets 257gr - 450gr. 300gr & 350gr bullets available for the 404 can be loaded to copy the .375 H&H ergo two calibers in one. Below 300gr the .375 H&H is more versatile.
I have heard many good things about the 404 actually. In my ideal world, I think I would have a rifle in all of the classic calibers!
 
I have a stainless/laminate Sako 85 Kodiak in .375
It's actually a decent quality rifle for the price and the stainless and grey laminate means it's weather proof so I don't mind carrying it around in the rain.

It was originally chambered in .375H&H but I took it to the gunsmith and had him ream the chamber out to .375 Weatherby magnum, which is quite satisfying to shoot and with very manageable recoil (although you really do need a recoil pad when sighting in at the range) so I can still shoot .375H&H ammo through it and they come out fireformed to .375 Weatherby magnum which I handload for anyway.

IMG_20210409_203615_2.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I have a stainless/laminate Sako 85 Kodiak in .375
It's actually a decent quality rifle for the price and the stainless and grey laminate means it's weather proof so I don't mind carrying it around in the rain.

It was originally chambered in .375H&H but I took it to the gunsmith and had him ream the chamber out to .375 Weatherby magnum, which is quite satisfying to shoot and with very manageable recoil (although you really do need a recoil pad when sighting in at the range) so I can still shoot .375H&H ammo through it and they come out fireformed to .375 Weatherby magnum which I handload for an
That is a mighty fine rifle! I am actually a fan of the gray laminate, especially for wet weather. That is why I like my Ruger Scout and the Ruger Guide gun. I mean, they're no substitute for walnut in the looks department, but they have their own charm.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
53,613
Messages
1,131,113
Members
92,664
Latest member
Leonslab
 

 

 

Latest profile posts

Early morning Impala hunt, previous link was wrong video

Headshot on jackal this morning

Mature Eland Bull taken in Tanzania, at 100 yards, with 375 H&H, 300gr, Federal Premium Expanding bullet.

20231012_145809~2.jpg
Living life like a lion for 1 day is better than living life like a jackal for 100 years.
 
Top