Concealed Carry: Your EDC

[shootist~]

I have a question. The difference between revolver and SA hand guns. Why more people prefer the SA?
Is it speed of reloading and round capacity?
Or easier to conceal with the revolver being more bulky around the frame?
Cheers

Reliability trumps everything else.

I prefer pocket carry and the suitable, i.e., really small 9mm's from the late 90s to a few years ago just weren't 100% reliable - for me. As a result I front pocket carried a Model 38 S&W Airweight Bodyguard.

More recently I found the Sig P365 (3.1") does run 100% for me, has better (10+1) capacity than the J-Frame and is more accurate in drills. Not to mention a small semi-auto is faster to reload than a wheel gun.

While a good bit heavier, the small Sig does work for front pocket carry in my 511s. In a pocket holster for safety, btw.

With pocket carry, I'm armed whenever I answer the front door. That was almost never the case when I carried IWB.

 

[Sideshow]

See if you can find a local instructor that will help you with the basics and let you try several different pistols BEFORE you buy one. Some ranges have pistols to try out for a modest charge under the expectation you will buy one from them and be a returning customer.

I’d love to do that but here in good old Blighty your not allowed handguns (unless it’s for humane dispatch) which is deer animals that have been hit by traffic.

 

[yamoon]

Rhetorical Question: Then why did you put yourself in that situation? See below.



Points made to my previous post ref:

Environment, aka situation awareness.
Collateral damage.

Shit happens when and where one least expects it.

@yamoon I gotta ask:

1. At 10 ft away; In the open; 2 individuals: firing at each other;
Were you or Did you not feel in harms way?

2. Please be honest!

A. Did you not engage because you felt you were not in harms way?

B. You were more afraid of the legal remuffications than protecting yourself and others?

C. You were/are hesitant in killing another human being?

D. All the above.

E. Which combination of above.

At 10 ft. Bullets flying. My Honest Opinion is you failed to engage because of B & C. It's easy to say one is willing to kill another human being. But when shit hits the fan; becoming a real choice. People suddenly hesitate....and that's what gets CCW people injured or killed.

For those that make the hard choice; they have to live with the fact they killed another human being. Some can, Some can't.

Everyone has their own set of morals.

I owned a very busy club in a military town, the altercation took place after closing. There was an argument in the parking lot, I went out to see what was going on and the shooting took place shortly after I entered the parking lot. I was taken completely unaware, many fights and arguments took place in the lot most only required a calming hand to talk them down. It was on a very slow week night so no security (bouncers). In retrospect I would not have put myself in that position. I wasn’t expecting any problems so was totally unprepared for what took place. Luckily the survivor didn’t turn on me and I elected to be a witness instead of being involved. We all think what we would do, but until you are there you don’t know.
Mike

 

[HookMeUpII]

2. Please be honest!

A. Did you not engage because you felt you were not in harms way?

B. You were more afraid of the legal remuffications than protecting yourself and others?

C. You were/are hesitant in killing another human being?

D. All the above.

E. Which combination of above.

At 10 ft. Bullets flying. My Honest Opinion is you failed to engage because of B & C. It's easy to say one is willing to kill another human being. But when shit hits the fan; becoming a real choice. People suddenly hesitate....and that's what gets CCW people injured or killed.

For those that make the hard choice; they have to live with the fact they killed another human being. Some can, Some can't.

Everyone has their own set of morals.

Bottomline here is: Zero time to assess the threat and what good would it have done to just randomly pick assailant 1 or 2? If a gun was pointed at him then that's different but at that point, they have the drop. Run, retreat, take cover.

The CCW usage is so tricky.

The force continuum on the civilian side works similarly but in different steps.

1) Avoidance is number 1. If it feels and seems bad, get out. If you already are in a hostile environment then step 2.
2) Situational awareness. Assess your surroundings. Note points of egress, points of vantage against you, de-target yourself, etc. Do everything you can to remove yourself from the situation but be aware.
3) Seek assistance of the authorities if practical. Really, it almost always is unless you find yourself right in step 4-5.
4) De-escalation. If you find yourself in an altercation, de-escalate. Don't be looking for a fight.
5) Threat assessment. What are we looking at here? Edged weapon? Blunt force object? Firearm? Unknown?
6) The one everyone forgets? RETREAT. Leave. Run. Barricade yourself in a safe dwelling. The reason this is after step 5 is because the threat dictates the retreat. Don't hide behind a sheetrock wall if the person has a gun.
7) Force response in proportion to the threat. Deadly if dictated by the situation. Shoot to kill, not to maim.

Most people find themselves in 4 -7 because they skipped 1-2-3. To be fair though, some of these things happen in environments where no threat is suspected (your home, place of business, well known neighborhood).

The reality in his situation is the answer is D all of the above. B and C should be in everyone's mind who CC's. No one wants to kill someone and therefore have to deal with that on your conscience AND the legal ramifications.

I've had a gun pointed at me once, and in my direction another time. Both times I was not armed.

Situation 1, he already had the drop. Drawing at that point? Good luck. Arms length you can high block and draw. He was 10 ft away. Closing the distance, high block, draw, fire...not a fan of those odds. At the time I was young. It was sobering to this day. Thankfully his wits came to him, he re holstered, and the second he did his day went from bad to worse. Imagine 5-6 security all over 220 lbs. tearing you limb from limb. He was an off duty LEO, by the way. Would I have drawn had I been armed? Nope. 10' away, has the drop on me, I am ducking and making small behind something. What did I do? Stand there frozen in shock. Then proceeded to neutralize him with all the other security.

Situation 2, armed altercation between gang members (presumably) in my vicinity. Once again a security situation. Very similar to what was mentioned. Two, third-parties squaring off. Would I have drawn had I been armed? I honestly can't say. How it ended up, nothing more than a Mexican standoff, it would have been the right move not to. However, it was like 3-4 vs 3-4...I didn't feel like being the tie breaker would have been smart. What I did do? Run myself behind a garbage can and hide.

I carry quite a bit now in light of recent events. A few days ago I had a very tense interaction in which I could not find my way out of and I was in fact carrying. In no way did I ever even think about drawing.

 

[HookMeUpII]

We all think what we would do, but until you are there you don’t know.
Mike

Exact situation I was in during situation 2 in my post. You did the right thing. Don't make someone else's problem yours.

I'd have done, and did do, the same thing.

Also, I would add: I think a lot of people forget most gunfights happen at 10' or less. Most untrained people under duress couldn't hit the side of a barn at 20 yards. Once again, retreat is your best option unless they are standing inside the critical zone.

 

[yamoon]

I owned a busy club for 35 years. The other situation I remember, I had a bouncer wounded in the parking lot the perpetrator started to walk away, then turned back shouting and waving the gun around. I was armed and laying across the hood of a car with gun drawn, thinking I’m going to have to shoot the SOB. Just then you could here sirens, the perp jumped in his car and drove away. Thankfully I won’t ever know what would have happened.
Mike

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

I'll include in my prayer tonight, that no one on this forum, (the AH community), ever has to resort to pulling a trigger on another human for as long as they live. May we all be blessed with peaceful days until it's our time to leave.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I owned a very busy club in a military town, the altercation took place after closing. There was an argument in the parking lot, I went out to see what was going on and the shooting took place shortly after I entered the parking lot. I was taken completely unaware, many fights and arguments took place in the lot most only required a calming hand to talk them down. It was on a very slow week night so no security (bouncers). In retrospect I would not have put myself in that position. I wasn’t expecting any problems so was totally unprepared for what took place. Luckily the survivor didn’t turn on me and I elected to be a witness instead of being involved. We all think what we would do, but until you are there you don’t know.
Mike

Okay, but how you will act is also a mind set. You must think about various situations and decide what you will do.I was held up.once about 40 years ago. I was in my twenties. It was before I was involved in corrections and had no experience with violent crime. I was unarmed and walked into a small gas station/convenience store. I will tell you that even with no one being shot, being a victim is also a terrible feeling. Years later, I went to work in the prison system. I learned to deal with violent people and could almost always de-escalate the situation, but there were times when hurting a felon to "gain compliance through pain and balance disruption" was the what was required. Outside of the prison I once saw an old man being beaten down by a bunch of thugs. I was carrying, but as none of the bad guys showed a weapon, I never showed mine. I was able to intimidate most of the thugs into backing off. I controlled the last.one physically with a wrist out-twist. I could maintain the control while watching the rest of the group. Had any of them produced a weapon, and presented a threat, which I was expecting, I would have drawn mine and shot him. No question. Glad I didn't have to, but my training has made it clear when shooting is called for. I held the guy until police showed up. So think about possible situations before you actually have to deal with one. If you are caught in a violent situation and have never thought about what you will do you are likely to be "the deer in the headlights." Develop the mind set.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Okay, but how you will act is also a mind set. You must think about various situations and decide what you will do.I was held up.once about 40 years ago. I was in my twenties. It was before I was involved in corrections and had no experience with violent crime. I was unarmed and walked into a small gas station/convenience store. I will tell you that even with no one being shot, being a victim is also a terrible feeling. Years later, I went to work in the prison system. I learned to deal with violent people and could almost always de-escalate the situation, but there were times when hurting a felon to "gain compliance through pain and balance disruption" was the what was required. Outside of the prison I once saw an old man being beaten down by a bunch of thugs. I was carrying, but as none of the bad guys showed a weapon, I never showed mine. I was able to intimidate most of the thugs into backing off. I controlled the last.one physically with a wrist out-twist. I could maintain the control while watching the rest of the group. Had any of them produced a weapon, and presented a threat, which I was expecting, I would have drawn mine and shot him. No question. Glad I didn't have to, but my training has made it clear when shooting is called for. I held the guy until police showed up.

So think about possible situations before you actually have to deal with one. If you are caught in a violent situation and have never thought about what you will do you are likely to be "the deer in the headlights." Develop the mind set.

Well stated!

 

[Ridge Runner]

First, I would like to apologize to @barryk for escalating the distraction, and the further distracting from his OP by responding in kind to those who have responded thus far to my later responses.

Secondly, I would like to thank @yamoon and @Doug Hamilton for contributing to the intent of my follow up posts to when or if why a person that is legally armed did or didn't engage in neutralizing a known threat.

I listen to those who legally carry either in the open and/CCW and for the most part it is most people carry a weapon as:

1. Carry "for just in case". What they really mean is: When the time comes to draw and discharge their weapon... they will be reluctant out of fear:

Fear of the legal remuffications
Fear of actually killing another human being
Fear of what happens next; living with the fact they killed another human being even though it was justifiable.
Fear of: loosing their job, family, friends, gossip, labeling, etc.

2. Whether concussion of the fact, or not, by carrying a firearm they are making their silent protest to the government and anti gun nuts I support the 2A.

3. Mochoism. I carry because if someone tries to bully me I'll just show 'em my gun. They'll run away.

4. The smallest percentage of those who carry a firearm; are proficient with their firearm(s), actually know how to, when to, and will use it, ...without remorse...whether the law says it was justifiable, or in their own opinion, in this moment, in the immediate situation, they felt it was justifiable.

Let's resume back to @barryk 's OP.

Should anyone like to continue on the subject of this distraction please start another OP. I would find it interesting as to why or why not you drew your firearm, if you discharged it, and the events there after.

 

[HookMeUpII]

Should anyone like to continue on the subject of this distraction please start another OP. I would find it interesting as to why or why not you drew your firearm, if you discharged it, and the events there after.

I think I have to re-state: You brought up a good point.

You can carry a full size 10mm or a tiny pocket 380. 6 o clock, 4 o clock, AIWB, off-body, etc.

It doesn't really matter unless you have the mindset. You must be prepared to be in a fight at all times. That is very sad, IMO, but that's life. Death and taxes are sad too but that's just part of life as well. You must also know how to use the firearm and when. You also must face the gravity of the situation should you elect to use it.

The physical tool is useless unless the mental tools are in place.

As @Doug Hamilton said, I'd rather be a survivor than a victim.

Shooting is actually like 1/3 of CCW tactics. Being that most gunfights happen within 10', you don't exactly need to be Jerry Miculek. 1/3 is situational awareness and 1/3 is tactical mindset.

 

[HookMeUpII]

Okay, but how you will act is also a mind set. You must think about various situations and decide what you will do.I was held up.once about 40 years ago. I was in my twenties. It was before I was involved in corrections and had no experience with violent crime. I was unarmed and walked into a small gas station/convenience store. I will tell you that even with no one being shot, being a victim is also a terrible feeling. Years later, I went to work in the prison system. I learned to deal with violent people and could almost always de-escalate the situation, but there were times when hurting a felon to "gain compliance through pain and balance disruption" was the what was required. Outside of the prison I once saw an old man being beaten down by a bunch of thugs. I was carrying, but as none of the bad guys showed a weapon, I never showed mine. I was able to intimidate most of the thugs into backing off. I controlled the last.one physically with a wrist out-twist. I could maintain the control while watching the rest of the group. Had any of them produced a weapon, and presented a threat, which I was expecting, I would have drawn mine and shot him. No question. Glad I didn't have to, but my training has made it clear when shooting is called for. I held the guy until police showed up. So think about possible situations before you actually have to deal with one. If you are caught in a violent situation and have never thought about what you will do you are likely to be "the deer in the headlights." Develop the mind set.

One thing I have to also bring up, which is ridiculous, is every state is different.

Texas, as far as I know, you can intervene with a firearm to protect/save a third-person unknown to you.

My state, I absolutely without a doubt know, you will go to jail if you protect/save a third-person unknown to you with a firearm. And once again, that is incredibly ridiculous and sad.

Big spectrum there. IMO, if we are being honest, Texas has it right.

 

[BFaucett]

One thing I have to also bring up, which is ridiculous, is every state is different.

Texas, as far as I know, you can intervene with a firearm to protect/save a third-person unknown to you.

My state, I absolutely without a doubt know, you will go to jail if you protect/save a third-person unknown to you with a firearm. And once again, that is incredibly ridiculous and sad.

Big spectrum there. IMO, if we are being honest, Texas has it right.

Yep.

Texas Constitution and Statutes​

PENAL CODE CHAPTER 9​

​

Sec. 9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:​

​

(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and​

​

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.​

​

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.​

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/?tab=1&code=PE&chapter=PE.9&artSec=​

Also read sections 9.31 and 9.32 and the preceeding sections at the link above.


As Ron White said, "In Texas, we have the death penalty, and WE USE IT! That's right! If you come to Texas and kill somebody, we will kill you back! That's our policy!"

Cheers! Bob F.

 

[HookMeUpII]

I also should add, I have a SW Bodyguard revolver in 38 special. I, personally, think this is the ultimate, user friendly, user safe pocket pistol. I carry it maybe 5% of the time. My Sig P365x definitely doesn't give the me the user-safe feeling of the wheel gun. However, I do like the AIWB config I have it setup in for ease of concealment, accessibility, and draw.

I've practiced dry/empty drawing the SW from my pocket and it just isn't fast enough for me. I do feel relatively safe drawing without a pocket holster as long as its left de-cocked in double action. Anything less than that is asking for trouble. I'd almost prefer if it didn't have the low-profile hammer.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

One thing I have to also bring up, which is ridiculous, is every state is different.

Texas, as far as I know, you can intervene with a firearm to protect/save a third-person unknown to you.

My state, I absolutely without a doubt know, you will go to jail if you protect/save a third-person unknown to you with a firearm. And once again, that is incredibly ridiculous and sad.

Big spectrum there. IMO, if we are being honest, Texas has it right.

Even in ultra liberal Washington, appropriate use of force in "self defence or defence of another" is legal. The.key here is knowing how.much force is appropriate. Bad idea to shoot an unarmed.attacker unless maybe.you are under a stronger attacker (remember the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman incident). I would not use lethal force against an unarmed attacker in defence of another in any state.

I will be on the East coast including New Jersey, Rhode Island and D.C. this summer. I will.not be carrying there, but I will have a.firearm or two inside.my travel trailer. Hopefully they will.never be uncased.

 

[HookMeUpII]

Even in ultra liberal Washington, appropriate use of force in "self defence or defence of another" is legal. The.key here is knowing how.much force is appropriate. Bad idea to shoot an unarmed.attacker unless maybe.you are under a stronger attacker (remember the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman incident). I would not use lethal force against an unarmed attacker in defence of another in any state.

I will be on the East coast including New Jersey, Rhode Island and D.C. this summer. I will.not be carrying there, but I will have a.firearm or two inside.my travel trailer. Hopefully they will.never be uncased.

Feel free to reach out. One of those states you mentioned is my home. We've gotten BETTER, not GOOD though.

 

[barryk]

First, I would like to apologize to @barryk for escalating the distraction, and the further distracting from his OP by responding in kind to those who have responded thus far to my later responses.

Secondly, I would like to thank @yamoon and @Doug Hamilton for contributing to the intent of my follow up posts to when or if why a person that is legally armed did or didn't engage in neutralizing a known threat.

I listen to those who legally carry either in the open and/CCW and for the most part it is most people carry a weapon as:

1. Carry "for just in case". What they really mean is: When the time comes to draw and discharge their weapon... they will be reluctant out of fear:

Fear of the legal remuffications
Fear of actually killing another human being
Fear of what happens next; living with the fact they killed another human being even though it was justifiable.
Fear of: loosing their job, family, friends, gossip, labeling, etc.

2. Whether concussion of the fact, or not, by carrying a firearm they are making their silent protest to the government and anti gun nuts I support the 2A.

3. Mochoism. I carry because if someone tries to bully me I'll just show 'em my gun. They'll run away.

4. The smallest percentage of those who carry a firearm; are proficient with their firearm(s), actually know how to, when to, and will use it, ...without remorse...whether the law says it was justifiable, or in their own opinion, in this moment, in the immediate situation, they felt it was justifiable.

Let's resume back to @barryk 's OP.

Should anyone like to continue on the subject of this distraction please start another OP. I would find it interesting as to why or why not you drew your firearm, if you discharged it, and the events there after.

Ridge Runner............no problem.......you initiated some interesting discussion.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Thanks @barryk.

It's a shame how most states and the federal government enact laws favoring criminals rights over the legal law biding citizens right to protect themselves, etc., and victimized 3rd parties, from criminals.

The US Constitution says "....innocent until proven guilty.....". Our states and federal government laws says "your guilty until you prove your innocents beyond reasonable doubt".

I'm just saying based on my minute amount of conversation and observance: Hence: 90% percent of LAW BIDING Amerincans that Legally Carry a firearm EDC and/or OC are working class law biding citizens that can not afford the best attorneys should they be involved in a situation where lethal force of a firearm is their only recourse.

Thus these 90% individuals will at the wrong time and place hesitate and either fail to act or become victims themselves.

Of the remaining 10%; 8% will choose not to react no matter how justifiable in their minds and obstinance of any forward legal remuffications will not engage their use of a firearm. Out of fear of Wrongful Death, or other, Civil Suits that can or could be brought against them. And as I previously posted: loss of employment due to their employer's negative publicity, etc, etc,.

The last 2%; have and/or: the money, political, criminal, etc. connections; have already done the pros and cons considerations and have decided when it is necessary they will have no qualms in using deadly force to neutralize a deadly threat/deadly threat situation.

As @yamoon and @Doug Hamilton pointed out/illustrated, it's situation awareness and situation case by case bases, to when or not, using deadly force.

My whole point is people want to be in "then in crowd". They'll carry what their "in crowd" carries or the latest fad in EDC. When push comes to shove; maybe...maybe... 1/2 of 1 percent of the "in crowd", will actually, even remotely think of drawing or using their weapon. Then make up excuses to boost their own ego, why they didn't "neutralize" the threat.

What @HookMeUpII said.

It doesn't really matter unless you have the mindset. You must be prepared to be in a fight at all times. That is very sad, IMO, but that's life. Death and taxes are sad too but that's just part of life as well. You must also know how to use the firearm and when. You also must face the gravity of the situation should you elect to use it.

The physical tool is useless unless the mental tools are in place.

As @Doug Hamilton said, I'd rather be a survivor than a victim.

Shooting is actually like 1/3 of CCW tactics. Being that most gunfights happen within 10', you don't exactly need to be Jerry Miculek. 1/3 is situational awareness and 1/3 is tactical mindset.

 

[HookMeUpII]

I figured I might get us back on the equipment portion.

I just ordered one of these for my 638.

Ambidextrous Pocket Holsters - Barsony Holsters

Ambidextrous concealed carry pocket holsters for semi-automatic pistols and revolvers proudly made in the USA. Made to fit a huge selection of gun makes and models.

www.barsonyholsters.com

Reviews online seem great and the price is well beyond fair.

Going to give it a shot and pocket carry my 638 when wearing polos and tucked in shirts for work. I've yet, to this day, been able to find a comfortable way to carry concealed with a tucked in shirt. The T1C claims it's tuckable, it's not great. I have a Vedder, which is a bit easier to work with. But its a single clip and the rig pivots a lot. Tried a belly band and it's not the easiet thing to get used to and acts as a sauna wrap when it gets hot.

 

[shootist~]

The DeSantis Nemesis Pocket Holster(s) is another option. I've used them for many years. First with a S&W M38 Bodyguard and currently (past two years) with the Sig P365. Even Amazon carries.