Bullets that well advertised but were not that great

[Green Chile]

I have been working up a load for my 6.5 PRC (New to me rifle) with Berger Elite Hunter 156 grain for Red Stage, Sika Stag & Roe Deer this fall in Scotland.

In your experience, am I going to get into trouble on shots say under 200 yards that these bullets might not hold together? Berger claims the following but I was going to call them to discuss what I should expect from the muzzle to 400 yards using these bullets.

J4 Hunting Jacket​

J4 Precision Bullet Jackets are the #1 choice of custom bullet manufacturers. They are the most consistent and concentric copper jackets in the world holding an unprecedented +/- .0003” tolerance. J4 hunting jackets are produced slightly thinner to allow for 2-3″” of penetration before rapidly expanding, producing extreme hydrostatic shock and a massive wound cavity.

All of my Berger kills were with the 6.5 PRC or 7 STW. Longest shot was around 250…shortest was about 60. I would say their description is correct. You get a few inches penetration then rapid expansion with no exits. Stay away from shoulder bones. I hit an aoudad in the spine and it turned spine into pea sized gravel.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I used Winchester Silvertips in 165g 308 offering exactly one time on deer. I had been hunting WV deer for several years with a 308 and had taken about five up to that point all with the 165g Nosler BT's using my own handloads which were about 1grain below max with WW748 powder. They had worked flawlessly all killing with one shot every deer taken and one very large Wild Boar in TN. When I encountered the Silvertip ammo, I bought a box thinking it might be an improvement on my hand loads. It shot well enough so I hunted that year with it. This would have been about 1997?

I encountered a large buck by surprise one day while returning to camp to assist a buddy. I ended up shooting that buck 5 times and hit it at least 4 of those shots. And three of the hits were in the vital zone. The buck died after being shot all to Hell and having its throat cut with a Gerber LMF. It hangs on my wall as a reminder not to use the Winchester ammo. None of the bullets were recovered and as best we could tell from the autopsy, the Silvertips performed like FMJ's and did not expand at all or very little. I was not impressed. I know that Nosler Ballistic Tips are not exactly the ideal hunting bullet but the Silvertip was not either on the other end of the spectrum. I switched to 44 mag for a while after that and then to a nice old Mauser custom in 270. Both worked very well for me. Without Silvertips, lol.

These days I prefer a good bonded core like the Federal Fusion or the Swift Scirocco and the occasional TSX mono for hunting deer or PG.

 

[BGGMKLR]

I used Winchester Silvertips in 165g 308 offering exactly one time on deer. I had been hunting WV deer for several years with a 308 and had taken about five up to that point all with the 165g Nosler BT's using my own handloads which were about 1grain below max with WW748 powder. They had worked flawlessly all killing with one shot every deer taken and one very large Wild Boar in TN. When I encountered the Silvertip ammo, I bought a box thinking it might be an improvement on my hand loads. It shot well enough so I hunted that year with it. This would have been about 1997?

I encountered a large buck by surprise one day while returning to camp to assist a buddy. I ended up shooting that buck 5 times and hit it at least 4 of those shots. And three of the hits were in the vital zone. The buck died after being shot all to Hell and having its throat cut with a Gerber LMF. It hangs on my wall as a reminder not to use the Winchester ammo. None of the bullets were recovered and as best we could tell from the autopsy, the Silvertips performed like FMJ's and did not expand at all or very little. I was not impressed. I know that Nosler Ballistic Tips are not exactly the ideal hunting bullet but the Silvertip was not either on the other end of the spectrum. I switched to 44 mag for a while after that and then to a nice old Mauser custom in 270. Both worked very well for me. Without Silvertips, lol.

These days I prefer a good bonded core like the Federal Fusion or the Swift Scirocco and the occasional TSX mono for hunting deer or PG.

I took a small baggie containing all of the pieces of four Silvertips recovered from four animals shot in Zim to the Winchester booth at the SCI convention in Reno. I patiently waited my turn to speak with the beautiful young rep working the booth. When my time came I introduced myself and handed her the baggie to which she asked "What is this"?
I told her that it was the remains/ fragments of four 270 gr 375H&H Winchester Silvertips that were recovered from African PG and then added:
"Im certainly glad that I wasn't forced to shoot a Lion in the face with one if those"
She could not get me out of the booth fast enough.
Regards
Spike

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I took a small baggie containing all of the pieces of four Silvertips recovered from four animals shot in Zim to the Winchester booth at the SCI convention in Reno. I patiently waited my turn to speak with the beautiful young rep working the booth. When my time came I introduced myself and handed her the baggie to which she asked "What is this"?
I told her that it was the remains/ fragments of four 270 gr 375H&H Winchester Silvertips that were recovered from African PG and then added:
"Im certainly glad that I wasn't forced to shoot a Lion in the face with one if those"
She could not get me out of the booth fast enough.
Regards
Spike

I have found the trade show info-babes to not be good for much other than to lure potential buyers into the booth. Most lack the technical background to discuss bullet structural failures. Whoever has been heading up engineering at Winchester has been well off the mark for many years. I shoot a lot of rimfire for both small game and target practice and of all the choices out there, the stuff coming out of Winchester has to be the worst or nearly the worst of all. What makes that even tougher is that most factory ammo I have used over the last five years or so, is as good or better than most of my best re-loads from 30yrs ago. This tells me that while the competition has raised the bar for great quality factory ammo, Winchester had gotten worse or remained the same at best. I have used other options from Hornady, Federal, Barnes and Norma to name a few and they ALL beat the best Winchester can offer.

"Hey Winchester, if you are listening, you are in danger of going out of business." Your customers are leaving you and that is a shame. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's you made some of the best rifles and at least decent ammo. You have hung on for decades based on your great reputation. But, in the age of social media, your weaknesses get exposed far more rapidly than in the past. Take action to improve your quality of go the way of the buggy whip.

 

[BGGMKLR]

I have found the trade show info-babes to not be good for much other than to lure potential buyers into the booth. Most lack the technical background to discuss bullet structural failures. Whoever has been heading up engineering at Winchester has been well off the mark for many years. I shoot a lot of rimfire for both small game and target practice and of all the choices out there, the stuff coming out of Winchester has to be the worst or nearly the worst of all. What makes that even tougher is that most factory ammo I have used over the last five years or so, is as good or better than most of my best re-loads from 30yrs ago. This tells me that while the competition has raised the bar for great quality factory ammo, Winchester had gotten worse or remained the same at best. I have used other options from Hornady, Federal, Barnes and Norma to name a few and they ALL beat the best Winchester can offer.

"Hey Winchester, if you are listening, you are in danger of going out of business." Your customers are leaving you and that is a shame. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's you made some of the best rifles and at least decent ammo. You have hung on for decades based on your great reputation. But, in the age of social media, your weaknesses get exposed far more rapidly than in the past. Take action to improve your quality of go the way of the buggy whip.

How bout we both wait breathlessly for a Winchester response to your painfully accurate rebuke?

 

[ftrovato]

I have found the trade show info-babes to not be good for much other than to lure potential buyers into the booth. Most lack the technical background to discuss bullet structural failures. Whoever has been heading up engineering at Winchester has been well off the mark for many years. I shoot a lot of rimfire for both small game and target practice and of all the choices out there, the stuff coming out of Winchester has to be the worst or nearly the worst of all. What makes that even tougher is that most factory ammo I have used over the last five years or so, is as good or better than most of my best re-loads from 30yrs ago. This tells me that while the competition has raised the bar for great quality factory ammo, Winchester had gotten worse or remained the same at best. I have used other options from Hornady, Federal, Barnes and Norma to name a few and they ALL beat the best Winchester can offer.

"Hey Winchester, if you are listening, you are in danger of going out of business." Your customers are leaving you and that is a shame. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's you made some of the best rifles and at least decent ammo. You have hung on for decades based on your great reputation. But, in the age of social media, your weaknesses get exposed far more rapidly than in the past. Take action to improve your quality of go the way of the buggy whip.

I find myself not being able to buy any of their products for several years now.....They have gone from 'The Rifleman's Rifle' to not competing in the current market.

 

[BGGMKLR]

I find myself not being able to buy any of their products for several years now.....They have gone from 'The Rifleman's Rifle' to not competing in the current market.

Sad indeed
Spike

 

[Rule 303]

I have found the trade show info-babes to not be good for much other than to lure potential buyers into the booth. Most lack the technical background to discuss bullet structural failures. Whoever has been heading up engineering at Winchester has been well off the mark for many years. I shoot a lot of rimfire for both small game and target practice and of all the choices out there, the stuff coming out of Winchester has to be the worst or nearly the worst of all. What makes that even tougher is that most factory ammo I have used over the last five years or so, is as good or better than most of my best re-loads from 30yrs ago. This tells me that while the competition has raised the bar for great quality factory ammo, Winchester had gotten worse or remained the same at best. I have used other options from Hornady, Federal, Barnes and Norma to name a few and they ALL beat the best Winchester can offer.

"Hey Winchester, if you are listening, you are in danger of going out of business." Your customers are leaving you and that is a shame. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's you made some of the best rifles and at least decent ammo. You have hung on for decades based on your great reputation. But, in the age of social media, your weaknesses get exposed far more rapidly than in the past. Take action to improve your quality of go the way of the buggy whip.

Winchester use to make 22 rimfire ammo in Australia. I do not know if they sent this to any other country but it was bloody good ammo. Shot tight in my 22 rifles and rabbits, cats foxes all dropped to it. As did the odd, very odd, pig. Get close and put it in behind the ear was the advice given to me and I did.
Unfortunately they closed their Australian manufacturing completely.

 

[BryceM]

Hmmmmmm...... Bergers.

I don't really know what to think here. I'm not taking any to Africa. Let's start with that. That said, they shoot supremely well in a couple of custom rifles. Like consistently under 1/4 MOA. Soooooo, I enjoy long range shooting, and when I'm really tuned up on the rifle, some long-range hunting - say out to 500 or 600 yards. I've killed three mulies, three pronghorn, and one bull elk beyond 500 yards in the last 5 years or so. No wounded or lost critters. I was also able to clean up a wounded pronghorn at 740 yards that another hunter in my party had wounded inside of 200 yards. Being able to do that with a high degree of success is really fun.

For that stuff, I think the Berger is a pretty good choice. It will work inside of 100 yards, but there are better choices for that.

 

[ftrovato]

Hmmmmmm...... Bergers.

I don't really know what to think here. I'm not taking any to Africa. Let's start with that. That said, they shoot supremely well in a couple of custom rifles. Like consistently under 1/4 MOA. Soooooo, I enjoy long range shooting, and when I'm really tuned up on the rifle, some long-range hunting - say out to 500 or 600 yards. I've killed three mulies, three pronghorn, and one bull elk beyond 500 yards in the last 5 years or so. No wounded or lost critters. I was also able to clean up a wounded pronghorn at 740 yards that another hunter in my party had wounded inside of 200 yards. Being able to do that with a high degree of success is really fun.

For that stuff, I think the Berger is a pretty good choice. It will work inside of 100 yards, but there are better choices for that.

Bryce,

What are your thoughts on Berger Elite Hunter 6.5 mm 156 grains fired at 3100 fps for Red Stag from 100 to 400 yards? 400 is my max and I suspect I could have opportunities in the 100-200 range when I'm hunting Scotland this Sept. I have tags for 3 Stag, 1 Sika & 1 Roe deer.

Note: I have no experience with Berger bullets but they shoot well out of my 6.5 PRC. I can consistently put 5 in an inch or so at 100 yards.

Do I have to worry about over expansion or bullet not holding together if animal is too close?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

As a young hunter and reloader in the late 60s. I used think how pretty the new bullets looked. The advertising was so good at blowing smoking up our rear and not knowing any better we bought it. Then as many of you have pointed out that the hype was not real.
The one bullet that I remember most is the original winchester silvertip. Oconnor loved it. I found that the jacket and core often separated forming two separate wound channels, but really not that effective IMO. Anyone, have bullets that did not live up to the advertising? Or, cost them a lost animal?

@dlmac
The old 150gn silvertip 30-30 ammo killed a lot of pigs for me before I discovered the 25-303.
Bob

 

[Just a dude in BC]

For me it was Barns bullets. I find they spike pressure worse than other mono metal bullets, and have had them just needle through game without expanding, that was from a 7mm rem mag which has more than enough velocity to expand any bullet. The new copper expanding North Forks are far superior IMO.

 

[BryceM]

Bryce,

What are your thoughts on Berger Elite Hunter 6.5 mm 156 grains fired at 3100 fps for Red Stag from 100 to 400 yards? 400 is my max and I suspect I could have opportunities in the 100-200 range when I'm hunting Scotland this Sept. I have tags for 3 Stag, 1 Sika & 1 Roe deer.

Note: I have no experience with Berger bullets but they shoot well out of my 6.5 PRC. I can consistently put 5 in an inch or so at 100 yards.

Do I have to worry about over expansion or bullet not holding together if animal is too close?

I think you'll be OK. I've shot a few critters under 100 yards and I haven't recovered a bullet. They've all gone through deer to elk-sized animals. Make sure you're using their hunting bullets and not their target bullets.

 

[Tgood1]

Very interesting thread, I love sierra game kings, despise eldx. Both opinions based on average whitetail deer and hogs

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The inverse question to the OP is where can I find a weak bullet? Good, STOUT bullets are plentiful these days whether NF, A-frame, Oryx, or other. Sometimes we just want to kill a deer real quick to shorten recovery or explode a coyote. Finding a devastating bullet (aka one that people on this thread would complain doesn't work well for larger game) is more of a pickle than finding a stout bullet.

@rookhawk
Hornady VMax, Sierra blitz king Barnes Varmit grenades, Nosler Armageddon, Speer soft points in sub 30 cal.
Seek and ye shall find my son.
Dang even the Hornady SST will explode a rabbit yet drive deep to kill deer and pigs.
To meet the SST is one of the best general purpose bullets around Super Shock Tipped.
Great expansion and good penetration. As Hornady says, tip expands violently in impact creating massive trauma and the interlock ring allows it to hold together for great penetration.
I've never had on fail to anchor game quickly and only ever recovered one
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Well sir, I do remember the old bronze points. Failed to expand on anything. Current Nosler ballistic tips now work great. Berger? I've taken several deer with them but plan to stop using them as I don't like the way they come apart. For premium bullets, I'll stick with Swift A-Frames or North Fork

@Rick HOlbert
And Woodleigh.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@gbflyer
The Whelen is that good if'n an animal sees you have one you don't even need to shoot it.
It realises it's dead already and walks over to you and lays down and dies.
Now if'n it was a 243 the animal would die of one of two things. Old age or laughter. It's that useless.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Winchester use to make 22 rimfire ammo in Australia. I do not know if they sent this to any other country but it was bloody good ammo. Shot tight in my 22 rifles and rabbits, cats foxes all dropped to it. As did the odd, very odd, pig. Get close and put it in behind the ear was the advice given to me and I did.
Unfortunately they closed their Australian manufacturing completely.

@Rule 303
We sent 22lr ammo all over the word under the Winchester brand.
The black box sub sonic and high velocity hollow point in 42gn shoot less than half inch at 50 yards in my old Bruno No2. Best groups so far at 50 off the bench with it so far in that old rifle are 0.172" for five shots. After that I went to the gun shop and bought every round they had with the same batch number.
Bob

 

[colorado]

The original Hornady DGX (Dangerous Game Expanding) blew up which was incredibly dangerous. It was appalling how some famous hunters and PHs endorsed them when they new better.

 

[ftrovato]

The original Hornady DGX (Dangerous Game Expanding) blew up which was incredibly dangerous. It was appalling how some famous hunters and PHs endorsed them when they new better.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.....talks. I've been told that the new bonded ones in many cases pancake and don't penetrate properly. Meaning they stay together but over expand.