Building a .404 Jeff

[Dublinpiper90]

I’ve tossed the idea around and I’m 90% sold myself on wanting to build a .404J I was curious from some folks on here which rifle caliber makes a good build? I’ve read that the .300 and .338s are easier to make into a .404J than a .375HH, definitely not in a rush, I’ve also contemplated buying a .450/.400 Double and just keeping a .375hh bolt gun and selling off my Lott for a .416 Rigby and not bother with the .404J ? Let’s hear some opinions and options

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

I used a Win Mod 70 in 300 RUM to build my 404J. Rebarreled with a Krieger.

 

[Choupique]

I think the easiest route is starting with a remington ultra mag and rebarreling it

 

[PanhandlinPat]

Model 70 in RUM is the best way. Interestingly enough my 1948 model 70 300 h&h action will hold and feed 4 empty 404 cases from the mag without any modifications. It’s like it was made for it.

 

[coreydb]

Agree with the 300 RUM. Reason being is that the RUM's parent case is the 404J. Just re-barrel

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

Acquire the .450/.400 NE. Keep the .458 Lott for its shear big bore power. Keep the flexible .375 Holland & Holland.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The RUM/WSM born from 404J myth. Actually all three have different diameter rims ... slightly.

I built my 404 on a STANDARD action 8mm military surplus Czech 98 Mauser. Two gunsmiths told me it couldn't be done but of course I knew it could. Standard action Mausers was all Jeffery had to build with when they designed the cartridge in 1905. A local machinist opened the bolt face and Dennis Olsen reamed, threaded, cut, and crowned the Lidja barrel. I did the rest, including modifying the feeding rails, loading ramp, follower, and extractor. I fit it with custom 316 Remingtom bottom metal, which worked fine without modification, and installed a Parkwest 3-position Model 70 style safety and a Timney trigger. The gun looks great, cycles slick, and shoots 1" groups at 100 yards (on a good day ... when I'm shooting good). At fifty yards it puts bullets on top of each other, scope or open sights.

The advantages of building on a standard action Mauser are 1) donor actions are still relatively easy to find [ = <$$$], 2) aftermarket stuff is abundant, 3) a classic African CRF dangerous game rifle, 4) standard action has shorter bolt throw. In theory it shoots faster than magnum action and less likely to short stroke and jam.

 

[SBW1975]

20" 404 on R8 platform. Very happy with the rifle.

 

[SBW1975]

Wrong gun

 

[Rare Breed]

I’ve tossed the idea around and I’m 90% sold myself on wanting to build a .404J I was curious from some folks on here which rifle caliber makes a good build? I’ve read that the .300 and .338s are easier to make into a .404J than a .375HH, definitely not in a rush, I’ve also contemplated buying a .450/.400 Double and just keeping a .375hh bolt gun and selling off my Lott for a .416 Rigby and not bother with the .404J ? Let’s hear some opinions and options

@Ontario Hunter built one and is probably a good source for you

 

[Ray B]

The two 404s that I had were both built on Winchester M 70 actions, one from 1952, the other 1953. I'm not sure what cartridge they left the factory as. One was by P.O. Ackley with P.O. Ackley barrel; the other Tipton burns of Houston, TX with Lothar-Walter barrel. Both functioned flawlessly

 

[cmk]

Mine is built on a Sako AV, which started out its life as a 6.5x55. The action is long enough, but not by much. Rails, bolt face, mag box and feed ramp needed a little work. And a new barrel, of course.

Mag follower, extractor and bottom metal still the same. Holds 3+1.

Is it the 'best way to go'? Dunno.
Does it work? Yes.

 

[HoosierHunter]

I own a 404J that is on a Remington 700 BDL platform. I bought it with a new barrel and the rest of the work already completed, but I believe the original design was from a 300 RUM. I haven't had any issues after personally shooting about 60 rounds through it. I've sent the gun up to Williams Gun Sights to have it looked over and iron sights installed and the gunsmith had nothing but good things to say about it.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Don’t do the double 450/400 unless you’ve already run doubles in the past, it’s a bad affliction and hard to shake once you start down that path. If you love a good bolt gun, stick to what you know and love. I was a tried and true bolt gun guy, was.

If I were building a 404J, I’d absolutely want a Mauser action, and if spending the money for a real quality build with gorgeous wood and all, I’d probably spend the money and source a Mayfield action, if building a British cartridge rifle, might as well use a British action.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Ordinarily I would question whether push feed or CRF really makes a big difference but for a 404J I think it could. The shape of the cartridge and the fact that it's beltless and "rimless" can spell problems for extractor to snap over on the rim when bolt is closed. Snap over can even be a problem for CRF (ask me how I know!) due to the 404J's sloping shoulder and no belt, especially if loading dies aren't set up properly or case rims aren't consistent thickness ( = RWS brass!). Then the cartridge can be pushed forward into the chamber without catching the rim and cause a jam. At least with CRF, 404J cartridges loaded from the magazine shouldn't be a problem. But push feed rifles require snap over even when loading from the magazine. It's a theoretical problem anyway. Remington went with beltless 404 case (almost) when they developed their RUM line of cartridges and they only make push feed rifles, but they put a sharper shoulder on the RUM cartridges (I believe 375 is the largest caliber in the series vs 404J's thicker .423 diameter bullet). Anyway, I wouldn't hesitate to build a belted 375 H&H on a push feed action but might think twice (at least) before using push feed to build 404J. But that's just me.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Ordinarily I would question whether push feed or CRF really makes a big difference but for a 404J I think it could. The shape of the cartridge and the fact that it's beltless and "rimless" can spell problems for extractor to snap over on the rim when bolt is closed. Snap over can even be a problem for CRF (ask me how I know!) due to the 404J's sloping shoulder and no belt, especially if loading dies aren't set up properly or case rims aren't consistent thickness ( = RWS brass!). Then the cartridge can be pushed forward into the chamber without catching the rim and cause a jam. At least with CRF, 404J cartridges loaded from the magazine shouldn't be a problem. But push feed rifles require snap over even when loading from the magazine. It's a theoretical problem anyway. Remington went with beltless 404 case (almost) when they developed their RUM line of cartridges and they only make push feed rifles, but they put a sharper shoulder on the RUM cartridges (I believe 375 is the largest caliber in the series vs 404J's thicker .423 diameter bullet). Anyway, I wouldn't hesitate to build a belted 375 H&H on a push feed action but might think twice (at least) before using push feed to build 404J. But that's just me.

I'll add a bit of history to explain the rimless to belted case evolution (because I'm a historian). Three major developments in rifle/ammunition occurred almost simultaneously at the end of the nineteenth century: 1) Paul Mauser's perfecting the repeating bolt action rifle and 2) rimless cartridges, and 3) perfecting smokeless gunpowder. Initially Mauser rifles used rimmed cartridges but not well. Changing to rimless cases allowed more cartridges to be stagger stacked in the magazine and provided more reliable feeding (e.g. 7x57mm Mauser). The first successful British smokeless gunpowder was cordite which was made in long strands. Loading cordite strings into cartridge case required the case be relatively straight or gently tapered (e.g. 303 British). Jeffery's 404 case was designed with no rim and a gently sloping shoulder to accommodate all three of these innovations/limitations. As an added bonus the 404's tapered shoulder cartridges jumped very smoothly onto the bolt face out of the feeding rails. Though not well published, I suspect there must have been early headspace issues. Curiously, the 404 remained the weapon of choice for African game control departments. Perhaps because almost all ammunition was factory made and exported, factory quality control may have limited headspace issues. Also, British gunmakers were stressing snap over was to be avoided in Mauser style rifles made for rimless cartridges. Rimmed cartridges, specifically 303 British, did not have potential headspace issues with snap over (rim on the case prevented it from entering too far into the chamber). In 1905 (the same year 404J was introduced) Holland & Holland instantly adopted a German innovation to resolve once and for all headspace issues with straight taper cases when they introduced the 375 H&H belted cartridge. The belt kept the 375's tapered case from being pushed too far into the chamber when a cartridge is push fed (i.e. dropped into the chamber instead of picked up from magazine). One would think the 375 H&H would have instantly made 404J obsolete. But it didn't because the long length of its new cartridge essentially tied Holland and Holland to Mauser's new magnum length action. 404J was built on MUCH more available ( = cheaper) standard length Mauser actions.

Then in 1909 Dupont introduced the first modern granulated smokeless rifle powders, eliminating the need for straight walled or nearly straight walled cases. Now cartridges with sharp shoulders could be more efficiently/effectively loaded with smokeless gunpowder. Sharp shoulders also effectively eliminated potential headspace issues with snap over. Thus, within the space of less than a decade several significant developments in rifle and ammunition came and went in rapid succession. This was only a minor sideshow in the infamous arms race that led to (many historians say caused) WWI.

The next "big" development was rebated rim cases. Turned out to be flash in the pan as I don't believe cycling issues were ever entirely resolved. Another story.

 

[Bonk]

I had my Ruger RSM 375H&H rebored to 404J. The gunsmith tuned the action to make sure it functioned correctly and it feeds, extracts and ejects flawlessly. Very happy with the result.

 

[Dublinpiper90]

I had my Ruger RSM 375H&H rebored to 404J. The gunsmith tuned the action to make sure it functioned correctly and it feeds, extracts and ejects flawlessly. Very happy with the result.

Would love to see some photos of it

 

[dogcat1]

Call Parkwest and have them build you one. No refitting old actions or reboring barrels.

 

[dchum]

Hijacking,

Would a model 70 crf in 7mm STW be an ok starting place for 404 Jeff? Or should it just be turned into a 375 hh

Thanks