Buffalo hunting with a .458 Win Mag

Dunno.
One of the team brought it for pistol practice out to 100 yards.
Just know the Punch shot through and the NF 450 grain FPS almost did.

Most other pistol or rifle rounds did not even dent it.
 
Dunno.
One of the team brought it for pistol practice out to 100 yards.
Just know the Punch shot through and the NF 450 grain FPS almost did.

Most other pistol or rifle rounds did not even dent it.

I'm afraid that's little help. Mild steel will deflect most handgun rounds. Were the others really upset with you over it or just mildly shocked?

I'm having a time wrapping my head around AR500 getting punched through by a .45-90. It's possible I suppose if the piece of steel is heavy enough.

Either way I think you're a noble character for reinvigorating the lever action rifle. That's great!
 
Since we're on handguns and lever guns in the 458 WM buffalo thread,
we need go no further because here is THE answer :)

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Since we're on handguns and lever guns in the 458 WM buffalo thread,
we need go no further because here is THE answer :)

View attachment 318713
“AMPLY proficient for buffalo and Elephant”! AND it’s a lever action! Well, no need for the .458 or this thread! Controversy solved! I’m going on Gun Broker right now and look for one! Hope they also have ammo for it? Thanks!
 
“AMPLY proficient for buffalo and Elephant”! AND it’s a lever action! Well, no need for the .458 or this thread! Controversy solved! I’m going on Gun Broker right now and look for one! Hope they also have ammo for it? Thanks!

He hopes they have ammo for it...hahaha. Well with a Barnes mono bullet you can just push it to light speed...

On a side note, didn't somebody shoot some Buffalo with one of these and had it turn into a soup sandwich? I seem to remember someone writing about it...
 
He hopes they have ammo for it...hahaha. Well with a Barnes mono bullet you can just push it to light speed...

On a side note, didn't somebody shoot some Buffalo with one of these and had it turn into a soup sandwich? I seem to remember someone writing about it...
That buffalo incident may have happened in India. Maybe Major Khan or Mr. Rahman would know? I mean the Savage 99s have been around since 1899? Anyway, the Barnes bullet may be too long for this cartridge? I was thinking a 87gr depleted uranium bullet at 3000fps would be amply sufficient to take any game in our galaxy? Just a thought?
 
Forrest said "
1. "I'm afraid that's little help. Mild steel will deflect most handgun rounds. Were the others really upset with you over it or just mildly shocked?"
The shooter was actually the person that donated the steel plate. He was actually very pleased because he was also the one that located and acquired the Punch bullets. He was also the one that was to take the rifles and ammo to Africa for testing.

2. Forrest also said "I'm having a time wrapping my head around AR500 getting punched through by a .45-90. It's possible I suppose if the piece of steel is heavy enough."

I doubt that our 5/8 inch thick steel plate was AR500 steel ( I looked up AR500). Here is a video a of a person shooting a one inch thick plate of AR500 with a 50 BMG. Tough stuff.

Forrest, you also mentioned a .45-90 . I suspect that the use of the old names for some cartridges may lead some folks to question their efficiency and power based somewhat on the early rifles used. The water capacity of the 45-90 case is 89.68 grains and the .458 Win Mag is 93.3 grains or just 3.62 more than the 45-90. The capacity of the 45-90 case is .96 of the .458 WM . Knowing this and the fact that the 1886 rifle action is very strong, it is easy to see how the 45-90 with 26 inch barrel can reach the lower end of the velocity range of the .458 Win Mag. One example is the 450 grain Kodiak bullet load Grizzly cartridge came up with for the 45-90 for our bullet testing Safari. The MV was 2150 fps and it was very effective on Cape buff and smaller critters; also on bison in Texas.
 
In reading your quote of me I feel misunderstood and more likely poorly expressed.
I am genuinely interested in the power you are generating. Not because I don't believe it's possible, but because I am truly happy to see someone running a lever gun well and with modern projectiles. I use what I presume is the headstamp on the brass. I have no direct knowledge of the .45-90...did it again...but I have wondered about the parallel of the .45-120 and .450NE. I also wonder about the .50-140 vs. the .500's in modern loadings and suitable actions. What is the Max working pressure of the 86 action?
 
Even if it’s punched through 5/8” or 16mm mild steel it has done well. I wonder what that equates to in a heavy animal penetration? Is it sufficient?
 
I'm hunting Cape Buffalo with KMG this coming August. I'll be taking my Mk. X .458 Win Mag, which fires 480gn Woodleigh RN's at about 2150 fps. This combination has worked well on Aussie buffalo and scrub bull, and I find the 480gn perfectly suited to the WM's case. As a backup I have Woodleigh Hydro 480gn as well. But I'd be happy not to need them.
 
CBH,
In a word, yes, it is sufficient penetration.
In our African tests, the 430 grain Punch bullet and the 450 grain North Fork FPS bullet were used on frontal brain shots on elephant from 20 yards. Both bullet types penetrated the skull, passed through the brain, exited the skull, and buried them selves in the body of the ele. This was from the Miroku/Winchester 1886 45-90 with muzzle velocity less than 2100 fps.

I suggest that the ele did not know whether the bullets came from a slingshot or a .458 Lott.

When tested on Cape buff, these bullets typically shot through the animals.
 
The Mark X is Interarms or Zastava is it?
The magic number for the .458 was always said to be 2150fps, I read a lot on it before going to .375
I like the idea of “Not needing “ the backup’s. That’s how it should be but should you need it it should work.
I’m interested in them but the same applies but I will be loading some and having some on hand because I can.
 
crs not doubting the penetration. If they do punch through even mild steel plate that should be . It was more the comparison of what is 5/8 plate compared to how many inches of muscle, bone tissue etc. I might not sure it’s easy to compare. No doubt an Elephant skull is different o a buffalo body. I’ve read enough to know that
 
CBH,
We did these bullet tests several years ago and we did it for our own education and satisfaction and not for publication in a hunting or shooting magazine/media. The results were posted daily from Africa on Leverguns.com plus a couple of summary posts after return to Texas. That series of posts also ran in the DWWC monthly newsletter after I polished the grammar somewhat.

Actual field performance was more important and meaningful to our team than shooting through wet newspapers, wood planks, or ballistic gel. In the latter, you can report how many inches of penetration was achieved, but in successful field tests where the bullets shot through the animal, such data was not available.
For hunters of dangerous game, the results were very meaningful.
 
Forrest asked "What is the Max working pressure of the 86 action?"
Reliable experimental data may be unavailable as no one that I know wants to be present when an 1886 action explodes. Seriously!
I have never even approached high pressure in an 1886. Two people in the ammo testing business told me that the 1886 action is easily safe above 50,000 psi chamber pressure, but that regular shooting at 55,000 psi may loosen the action. I was also told that the 2150 fps heavy jacket 450 grain Kodiak load generated less than 40,000 psi. It seems that with intelligent use of modern powders, there is no reason to ever reach the 50,000 psi level in an 1886. I certainly do not intend to do so; partly because it might be dangerous and partly because there is no need- it will already kill any animal that lives.

If you do experiment on max 1886 loads, please let me know when and where so that I can avoid the area. ;)
 
That buffalo incident may have happened in India. Maybe Major Khan or Mr. Rahman would know? I mean the Savage 99s have been around since 1899? Anyway, the Barnes bullet may be too long for this cartridge? I was thinking a 87gr depleted uranium bullet at 3000fps would be amply sufficient to take any game in our galaxy? Just a thought?
It has been done , Co Elk Hunter . It was never done in the state of Nagpur , where l was based , because the minimum legally acceptable calibre for foreign client shikarees to shoot water buffalo or gaur was .375 Nitro Express.
However , in other states , like Darjeeling ( where Kawshik was based ) , there were no calibre limits , placed by the law. Kawshik's shikar partner , Karim Chowdhury actually killed a female gaur with a .22 Long Rifle high velocity bullet . He was using a BRNO .22 Long Rifle calibre semi automatic rifle . He shot the gaur in the soft part behind her shoulder and the bullet pierced her lungs , while the uncovered lead head of the cartridge expanded inside the lungs of the brute . She started coughing blood from her mouth and blowing it from her nose . She was in a herd . The sight of seeing her blow blood drove the other animals in the herd mad ( including other female gaurs , calves and even the few bulls there ) . They proceeded to bull rush her and gore her to death with their horns ( the short curved horns of a gaur make them even more dangerous than the larger horns of a water buffalo ) .
She was gored to death in 9 minutes . After the herd settled down and left , we collected the carcass for the beef . This hardly comes across as humane killing , and it was a highly effective , but cruel tactic . Needless to say , l would not care to face a gaur with anything smaller than a .366 Mauser ( 9.3× 62 calibre ) .
Karim did this only once. It was technically not the bullet which killed her , but the other gaurs in her herd.
All bovines will go mad at the sight of blood very quickly . If the buffalo is a homing missile , then blood is the target .
This is why Spanish Matadors use a red silk cloth to provoke charging bulls , during bull fights . Red reminds them of blood.
 
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crs,
With 50,000psi max pressure will a 45-90 case hold enough powder to reach that limit and what bullet would be used? Just curious and I would not want to very close when the trigger is pulled. I'd be behind a large boulder with a long string to the trigger.
 
Since the thread has wandered off on a lever gun tangent- what the hey! Here's 2 cents based on my experience and knowledge. I think much of the full potential for those type lever guns was first realized way back in the 50's (save for advances in bullet technology) when Harold Johnson of Cooper Landing AK wildcatted the 348 to a blown out version in 45 caliber and re-barreled a Winchester M71 to his new cartridge. The M71 was the last and most advanced model of the basic Win M1886 lever gun. The 450 Alaskan and various versions including an AI explored the full potential of the Win 86/71 lever gun design and also the comparable Marlin M95 design. When Johnson built the 450 AK he also found out he had to redesign the front mag tube hanger because the severe recoil of the new cartridge would rip the original design hanger off the barrel. :)

I think today there are various companies, including Turnbull and Wild West Guns in Anc. AK and others modifying these older design basic lever guns to handle very potent cartridges with many based on the 45-70 cartridge and some on the newer 450 Marlin along with some wildcats into the 50 cal range.

On the reverse side of this coin, back in about 1993-4, I shot a friend's rebarreled and "customized" Siamese Mauser in 45-70 that he hot-rodded to near 458 Mag specs. Nice slick little rifle but after a few shots and some serious recoil bruising I wondered- WHY? Why hot rod a cartridge designed originally for nice mild blackpowder/cast bullet technology when the 458 WM cartridge already existed and was ready to go?? I never could answer that one. :) Also, that experience along with one many years earlier with a similarly designed rifle in 458 WM, convinced me the big heavy recoilers were best if used in slightly heavier, larger guns. That little Mauser would have been shootable and fine in something like a 30-06.

Then on to the stacked mag Win M95 originally designed to handle all manner of the then new smokeless powder cartridges and rapidly evolving jacketed bullets. I guess for nostalgia purposes it's a cool thought if for no other reason than TR used one on safari in 405 Win including for rhino as the famous TR/rhino pic shows. I've owned, shot and hunted with several original Win 1895s: including a 1904 DOM rifle in 405 Winchester, a 1903 DOM rifle in 35 Winchester, an 1899 DOM SRC in 30-40 (30- Army) and a 1901 DOM Rifle in 30-40. Both the 405 Win and 35 Win had the "climbin' Lyman" receiver mounted aperture sight which proved to be excellent for both target shooting and hunting. Of those three calibers and four rifles, IMO the 35 Win showed me the most potential as a serious hunting gun but limited and for such game as deer and elk. (Unfortunately the 35 Win has long been obsolete so brass has been extremely scarce for many years. I was able to get a good supply of 35 Win brass early on so that was not an issue.) Finding available, high quality hunting bullets of correct-for-bore specs in the correct weights for both the 405 cal and the 35 cal proved challenging. For example my 405 had a groove diameter of .414.

The best things, IMO, I can say about the Win 95 may include: it is fairly strong so can handle smokeless type pressures... if kept to a reasonable level, it has a stacked magazine for spire point bullets if that is the type one wants to shoot, the lever action design is really pretty smooth. But, IMO, the downsides may also include: limited availability of serious hunting bullets in especially the 405 cal- no matter the ones which may be designed for penetration, the pot bellied- non ergonomic design of the rifle, the somewhat odd lever design and geometry that can occasionally pinch fingers, poor stock design with too much drop at butt for heavy recoiling rounds.

As far as me using one for some undefined reason for a very expensive DG hunt? Nah, I'll just stick with a more powerful, easier to use modern bolt gun with a low powered scope shooting the best quality bullets I can find. :)
 
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