Buffaloes are tough

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Gday Bob

Sorry for my writing skills must have been my other head doing the thinking when I was typing lol ( guys I’m from Tassie & we have 2 heads well according to my scar anyway , just a joke )

The 358 is in relation to the weight of the pill itself not the caliber as the caliber is .510 cal & shooting this out of my 500 Jeffery

Sorry for my mixup
cheers

@Fordy
Typical Taswiegen.
I went to Tassie for a 3 month holiday in 1992. Left there in 2000.
Beautiful place. Spent a lot of time in Orford and Moonah. Hunted deer and other game up the Nile.
Where in Tassie are you.
Bob

 

[Sideshow]

Gday pondoro

This Norma ph line in 500 Jeffery that we get in Aussie is definitely not woodleigh in the solids & it’s a shocker as turns tumbles bad when trying to end to end aussie buff or like
Don’t know what brand they use but on elephant I’d be extremely cautious & I will use them only on varmits for practice & take my hand loads for the big critters
View attachment 766491View attachment 766492
@spike.t
These what you talking about sako in the pictures above on not getting any anymore ?
we have a few sako left here last I checked with the shop owner when I bout 40 rounds the importer had 36 boxes available so I better get some more & put in storage incase we rub shoulders one day as mine will be all gone next week ( these & others )

The Aframe is a fine pill & gives buff & like some hurt they don’t like that’s for sure , well aussie buff & our other critters so take that for what it’s worth

Cheers

Interesting findings on the results of your norma ammo. Wonder what they have used bullet wise?

 

[Sideshow]

Gday monski

Thanks for that & your welcome
They are Total rubbish imo & one where the issue first showed was on a 1/4 too shot on a brumby as this thing polaxed on impact BUT on further investigation no exit could be found so it was a autopsy that revealed the issue ( I’ll see if I can get my son to help find pics where he stored them but got nothing on my phone sorry )
The pill turned & done a boomerang ended up back against side on same impact side

This was seen a few times of various levels on bovines also & one that didn’t happen all the time as we also got mostly exits but 18 kill’s & retained 3 pills in the critters that should’ve easily exited well the hydro ( forget about a ceb as those things are still going lol ) does on these angles we recovered the Norma pills In & even some that did exit the pill had started to turn re non straight line where good solids stay straight

Also on recent tests in media with help from @michael458 I’ve been doing , to work out which pill I’ll use on elephant soon , I put a few different bullets into wet newspaper media I shot a couple of these Norma into that & turns also occurred in the 2 I’d shot in it

So I’d suggest one definitely air on the side of caution if going to use them

Mine are destined to use on varmits plain & simple they are too erratic for putting into critters imo even though some results were pretty good it’s the bad that gets my attention & total junk imo
Cheers

Did you also have a record (not that it matters) on how far into the wet back they went before they deviated?

 

[Pondoro]

Gday pondoro

This Norma ph line in 500 Jeffery that we get in Aussie is definitely not woodleigh in the solids & it’s a shocker as turns tumbles bad when trying to end to end aussie buff or like
Don’t know what brand they use but on elephant I’d be extremely cautious & I will use them only on varmits for practice & take my hand loads for the big critters
View attachment 766491View attachment 766492
@spike.t
These what you talking about sako in the pictures above on not getting any anymore ?
we have a few sako left here last I checked with the shop owner when I bout 40 rounds the importer had 36 boxes available so I better get some more & put in storage incase we rub shoulders one day as mine will be all gone next week ( these & others )

The Aframe is a fine pill & gives buff & like some hurt they don’t like that’s for sure , well aussie buff & our other critters so take that for what it’s worth

Cheers

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The solid is a 540 grain flat tipped brass bullet (not sure of make, maybe Norma own)..the soft is a 570 grain Woodleigh.

 

[michael458]

They are Total rubbish imo & one where the issue first showed was on a 1/4 too shot on a brumby as this thing polaxed on impact BUT on further investigation no exit could be found so it was a autopsy that revealed the issue ( I’ll see if I can get my son to help find pics where he stored them but got nothing on my phone sorry )
The pill turned & done a boomerang ended up back against side on same impact side

Have you done any testing with Nosler brand solid? I have some of the same Norma solids in 450 Rigby but they look very similar to Nosler’s solids to me.

Fordy, I concur these Nosler/Norma or whatever solids are not up to par. I believe some were also loaded in Federal Factory ammo as well. There have been several variations of this bullet over the years, and the problem is the meplat is just not big enough to stabilize during terminal penetration, they go sideways, then if they hit anything they bend.

I have never used one in the field at all. I have had friends many years past that had this same banana/boomerang failure with them. I tested some old version many years ago, this was not one of my "Official" tests, but one where I wanted to see if it could penetrate straight while going through some very tough obstacles....... It could not, but also, I might have been a little tough on the bullet, but I did have others that did well. But this was not official test up to standards, mostly me playing to be honest...........

Just recently one of our own here used this a couple of years ago in Factory Ammo, our friend did not Hand Load, and this was his choice, about the only choice he had. I actually told him he should be ok on the buffalo hunt! We just did not have much of a choice in Factory Ammo and what he could get at the time. I honestly felt like "Surely to God he would only need 1-2 backup Solids and they would work this one time until I could load him a proper bullet!" Well, damn, I was wrong, fortunately his first A Frame took effect, and the solid was just a miserable failure, as Fordy states.............

@375Fox , yes, I think you are right, like stated, the Nosler/Norma and at one time Federal I think were all loading the same bullet, they all looked very similar to me as well.

 

[skydiver386]

I've got a few boxes of those Norma solids in 450 Rigby. The nose seems to be slightly rounded instead of being perfectly flat, and if you look close, the edges of the nose are slightly beveled.

Could these also be reasons they tend to steer off course?

They are in plain brass cases, not the nickel plated, and it's obvious they are a lighter colored alloy than the brass cases. They have the elephant pictured on the packaging.

Other Norma solids I have in the same caliber are the round nosed solid, which obviously has a copper jacket. A Hippo is on the packaging. These I had assumed would be the worse of the two, but after reading the comments on this thread maybe some other brands being handloaded will be the better choice.

 

[Lancaster]

Thanks DWB. I am not familiar with five-legged sticks?

@SRvet and I do most of our zeroing and practice from the VipeFlex quad sticks with the optional 5th leg attached. We do nearly all of our lowland deerstalking with them but without the 5th leg.

My 2024 Zim PH (David Mann of CMS) liked them but they were going to be too expensive to import to Zim so I gave him my set, he told me a lot of clients have taken a lot of animals with them since.

Unlike many quad sticks they have the advantage of going down to sitting height, useful in the Zambezi jess we discovered!

Get Sam or Glenn to bring you a pair over next time they visit, and finally @Kevin Peacocke congratulations on the marriage of your daughter, it looked like a really lovely day!

 

[michael458]

the edges of the nose are slightly beveled.

Probably not, one of the factors in design is a radius edge, not a sharp edge. We found early on with the various #13 Solids that a sharp edge was fine, until the last 5% of total penetration, then it would stray slightly in many cases. A radius edge, rounding off you might say, solved that completely. Now "How Much Radius?"........... The #13 CEB and the North Forks are happy, I can't speak to others in a defined manner.

I think the biggest issue is the size of the meplat....... 65% of Caliber is required for Terminal Stability. Less than that, well is less than stable. If the bullet is at 55% or so, it is very weak in that category, which is Factor #1...... Meplat Size. I do not know what the meplat size is, but I would bet that it is under 65% of caliber. The CEB #13 is 67% and the North Fork is 68%. Another good bullet is the Barnes Flat Nose, most all I have measured come in at 65%.

maybe some other brands being handloaded will be the better choice.

Indeed.

 

[skydiver386]

Probably not, one of the factors in design is a radius edge, not a sharp edge. We found early on with the various #13 Solids that a sharp edge was fine, until the last 5% of total penetration, then it would stray slightly in many cases. A radius edge, rounding off you might say, solved that completely. Now "How Much Radius?"........... The #13 CEB and the North Forks are happy, I can't speak to others in a defined manner.

I think the biggest issue is the size of the meplat....... 65% of Caliber is required for Terminal Stability. Less than that, well is less than stable. If the bullet is at 55% or so, it is very weak in that category, which is Factor #1...... Meplat Size. I do not know what the meplat size is, but I would bet that it is under 65% of caliber. The CEB #13 is 67% and the North Fork is 68%. Another good bullet is the Barnes Flat Nose, most all I have measured come in at 65%.

Indeed.

Does the cup nose solid design change these factors somewhat? Most cup nose solids appear to have a reduced nose size in comparison to flat nose solids.

The hydrodynamics of the cup nosed solids would probably be completely different than the flat nose design. @Green Chile has some recent experience with this design.

 

[michael458]

Does the cup nose solid design change these factors somewhat? Most cup nose solids appear to have a reduced nose size in comparison to flat nose solids.

The hydrodynamics of the cup nosed solids would probably be completely different than the flat nose design. @Green Chile has some recent experience with this design.

Indeed it does, any Cup Point is a "Limited Penetration Solid"............. The Cup increases surface area, and my friend John, formally North Fork explained it best, "It fooled the medium, either test or animal tissue, into believing the meplat size was bigger, larger than bullet caliber" What happens as we increase meplat size with depth of penetration? Depth decreases of course, larger surface area, and with larger surface area, more tissue destruction as well.

 

[skydiver386]

Indeed it does, any Cup Point is a "Limited Penetration Solid"............. The Cup increases surface area, and my friend John, formally North Fork explained it best, "It fooled the medium, either test or animal tissue, into believing the meplat size was bigger, larger than bullet caliber" What happens as we increase meplat size with depth of penetration? Depth decreases of course, larger surface area, and with larger surface area, more tissue destruction as well.

Exactly what I would have thought.

Given that tradeoff of penetration with tissue destruction, would you recommend the cup nosed solids for follow up shots on Buffalo vs expanding or flat nosed solids?

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

@SRvet and I do most of our zeroing and practice from the VipeFlex quad sticks with the optional 5th leg attached. We do nearly all of our lowland deerstalking with them but without the 5th leg.

My 2024 Zim PH (David Mann of CMS) liked them but they were going to be too expensive to import to Zim so I gave him my set, he told me a lot of clients have taken a lot of animals with them since.

Unlike many quad sticks they have the advantage of going down to sitting height, useful in the Zambezi jess we discovered!

Get Sam or Glenn to bring you a pair over next time they visit, and finally @Kevin Peacocke congratulations on the marriage of your daughter, it looked like a really lovely day!

Thanks Lancaster!

 

[michael458]

Given that tradeoff of penetration with tissue destruction, would you recommend the cup nosed solids for follow up shots on Buffalo vs expanding or flat nosed solids?

@skydiver386 That is the question asked today. Me, personally, I will always and have always (except for one occasion) backed up buffalo with Solids. In the OLD days, before proper designs were available, some less than desirable solids, meaning Round Nose were used, and some interesting behavior sometimes could be seen. After 2005 when Barnes introduced their version of the Flat Nose solid (which is a good design) I never used anything else. That year I only took 3 buffalo, but the second shot effects were noticeable in the extreme compared to what I had seen in the past, I was sold on that. And from this point forward, I always used a Flat Nose solid to back up the first shot. In the end that solid had progressed to perhaps the best solid ever devised, the CEB #13 Solids. With North Fork new design (15 yrs ago LOL) right along side. You never ever know what will happen after that first perfect shot....... you may be shooting through brush, limbs, trees, other obstacles, or the South End of a North Bound Buffalo...... you need all the bullet you can get to solve the problem. You have a problem to solve after the first shot is taken, and there is no better tool on the planet to solve your problem than a proper designed FN Solid.

Today there are those that claim you no longer need solids except for elephant, that expanding bullets are so good these days, a solid is just not needed. That is short sighted, and to be honest, as my friend @Fordy would say, PURE RUBBISH. No expanding or even trauma inflicting generation 1 or 2 bullet can accomplish what a proper designed solid can. None! CPS, Cup Point Solid, is better than expanding or Trauma Inflicting Gen 1&2, but still does not have the full capability of a True FN Solid.

 

[SStomcat]

@skydiver386 That is the question asked today. Me, personally, I will always and have always (except for one occasion) backed up buffalo with Solids. In the OLD days, before proper designs were available, some less than desirable solids, meaning Round Nose were used, and some interesting behavior sometimes could be seen. After 2005 when Barnes introduced their version of the Flat Nose solid (which is a good design) I never used anything else. That year I only took 3 buffalo, but the second shot effects were noticeable in the extreme compared to what I had seen in the past, I was sold on that. And from this point forward, I always used a Flat Nose solid to back up the first shot. In the end that solid had progressed to perhaps the best solid ever devised, the CEB #13 Solids. With North Fork new design (15 yrs ago LOL) right along side. You never ever know what will happen after that first perfect shot....... you may be shooting through brush, limbs, trees, other obstacles, or the South End of a North Bound Buffalo...... you need all the bullet you can get to solve the problem. You have a problem to solve after the first shot is taken, and there is no better tool on the planet to solve your problem than a proper designed FN Solid.

Today there are those that claim you no longer need solids except for elephant, that expanding bullets are so good these days, a solid is just not needed. That is short sighted, and to be honest, as my friend @Fordy would say, PURE RUBBISH. No expanding or even trauma inflicting generation 1 or 2 bullet can accomplish what a proper designed solid can. None! CPS, Cup Point Solid, is better than expanding or Trauma Inflicting Gen 1&2, but still does not have the full capability of a True FN Solid.

In do understand you speak from experience. So, would you recommend the first shot to be a solid as well?

 

[spike.t]

Gday pondoro

This Norma ph line in 500 Jeffery that we get in Aussie is definitely not woodleigh in the solids & it’s a shocker as turns tumbles bad when trying to end to end aussie buff or like
Don’t know what brand they use but on elephant I’d be extremely cautious & I will use them only on varmits for practice & take my hand loads for the big critters
View attachment 766491View attachment 766492
@spike.t
These what you talking about sako in the pictures above on not getting any anymore ?
we have a few sako left here last I checked with the shop owner when I bout 40 rounds the importer had 36 boxes available so I better get some more & put in storage incase we rub shoulders one day as mine will be all gone next week ( these & others )

The Aframe is a fine pill & gives buff & like some hurt they don’t like that’s for sure , well aussie buff & our other critters so take that for what it’s worth

Cheers

Yup that's the sako one loaded with aframe ...got a few I have managed to buy ...but not a great amount...but we are only allowed 50 rounds per rifle in possession at one time....150 in a year...the Norma solids are those 540 grn ones and Woodleigh 570 grn in softs as well....but not pleasant in my rifle compared to the sako...but have couple boxes....

 

[michael458]

In do understand you speak from experience. So, would you recommend the first shot to be a solid as well?

No, I would use a Trauma Inflicting bullet such as the Raptor. I never stated Solid on the first shot, although the big meplat solids would most certainly do a fine job and hit hard. I have used these Solids as first shots in some circumstances, but not as a norm.

 

[Sideshow]

No, I would use a Trauma Inflicting bullet such as the Raptor. I never stated Solid on the first shot, although the big meplat solids would most certainly do a fine job and hit hard. I have used these Solids as first shots in some circumstances, but not as a norm.

Thanks again @michael458 always good to hear your thoughts on this subject!

 

[Fordy]

Gday Bob

@Fordy
Typical Taswiegen.

yep & proud of my scar lol

I went to Tassie for a 3 month holiday in 1992. Left there in 2000.

Man alive in those loooong 3 months ha ha I’m sure you got a grafted head put on as your definatly part taswegian now in my eyes

Beautiful place. Spent a lot of time in Orford and Moonah. Hunted deer and other game up the Nile.
Where in Tassie are you.
Bob

yes a beautiful place for sure
I’m a little further north west than the Nile @ a little rural place called paradise right under mount Roland just outside Sheffield
Here’s my back door outlook

also have a hunting & conservation property that is just west of the Nile @ Epping forest/Powranna that’s only a touch over a hour drive from home which I enjoy going too & teaching/showing the next generation of hunters /conservationists (combined Not separate) on

Where are you based bob
Cheers Fordy