An impulse buy....6.5x54 MS....but not the one you think

[Hagler.450Ex]

If I remember correctly, the Carcano has a gain twist bore. Supposedly lowering the pressure.
You may want to check that.

Indeed, but they went to constant twist in 41'. This one is a 42'.

 

[yumastepside]

A lot of the Carcano's were .268 with a gain twist barrel. Here in Oz they were not popular because the commercial ammo was .264 and you couldn't hit the side of a barn with them.
I have two Carcano's....one rebarrelled with a .264 barrel and chambered in 6.5x54 MS and the other in a wildcat of mine, 35 Carcano, the 6.5x54MS blown out to .358.

Roger

 

[Flbt]

View attachment 715967

Just funnin' with ya a little. . .

An interesting rifle! A little strange but definitely interesting.

Cheers! Bob F.

I have all ways been told the lack of accuracy on the Italians was trying to use the wrong sized bullets.
That very few ammo companies have used the right bullets after the surplus was gone.

Honestly I know of the Italian guns being used as toys for kids in the 70
Because no one here would buy them for lack of ammo and the 7.25 was even worse
I could have bought all I wanted in the 80 for 10$ but could find no ammo

 

[Flbt]

So, more digging. It seems that a company converted some to the MS round in the 1920's and brought them to the U.S.....these were to make use of the apparent abundance of MS ammunition at the time, so intentionally meant to use the .264 bullet.
It seems the same happened in the 1960's, which this one is, due to its 1942 date, although the company that did them, I don't know.
So, apparently, it was a widely acceptable thing to use the .264 MS ammunition in the Carcano's .268 bore.
How accurate it will be, is yet to be seen. Although I've seen good reports during my search.
I'd like to know the company that did these.

A lot of import companies did a lot of strange and not nessary safe things in the 50 and 60
Look at all the shaved cylinders on revolvers to use 45acp
Even though the original cartridge was not proffed for the acp. Or 9x23 long being advised as being safe with 38 super.

Remember all that could be done through the mail and never be able to see who sold you something dangerous.

 

[Flbt]

Guess accurate enough for Lee Harvey Oswald to use, good enough for hunting ?
“”
Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated President Kennedy using a 6.5×52mm Italian Mannlicher-Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle””
.

So they say.
But I have seen reports and articles saying that the scope was not sighted in.
Could have just been a lucky shot

 

[Flbt]

Guess accurate enough for Lee Harvey Oswald to use, good enough for hunting ?
“”
Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated President Kennedy using a 6.5×52mm Italian Mannlicher-Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle””
.

And what with Winchester ammo surplus that was loaded for the cia? If I remember right

That cia ammo might have been extremely accurate?

 

[KoedoePoesPienk]

I got dies, and will try the .264's. because they are the only ones close to 160 grains.
The Hornady's in .268 I'll try second, and only if the .264's are acting odd.
Some said they experienced increased pressure with the .268's in the Carcanos.
It's a confusing mess.

I hope I don’t add to the confusion: I shoot .264 PPU 156gr in my 1903 6.5x54 carbine. And they are very accurate.

 

[AZDAVE]

Sometimes it is just the fun of discovering a new toy that catches your eye. You will have fin learning what the little carbine likes and doesn't. Since you are looking to have it as a truck/boat gun if the .264's don't work out accuracy wise and it needs .268 which aren't the the easiest to find. You could resize .270 bullets or just shoot gas checked cast bullets. Following along on your learning experience.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

Sometimes it is just the fun of discovering a new toy that catches your eye. You will have fin learning what the little carbine likes and doesn't. Since you are looking to have it as a truck/boat gun if the .264's don't work out accuracy wise and it needs .268 which aren't the the easiest to find. You could resize .270 bullets or just shoot gas checked cast bullets. Following along on your learning experience.

That's what it's all about. I've never seen myself ever buying a Carcano, but the mystery behind this one was enough to make me throw it in the bag for fun. Sometimes you don't solve the mystery until later, and sometimes it's nothing, and sometimes it's big, and I've had both happen on occasion. And it's true, I wanted to experiment with this cartridge, so it's a win in my book. And the boat for sure, it's this kind that I don't mind being in the weather or getting knocked about. That's a good idea about .270's!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

So late the other night I was looking at what different sites had for sale and came across something a bit odd. After reading the description I figured "why not?" I ordered it because it's quite strange. It's a Carcano that has been refinished, rechambered for 6.5x54MS, British proofs, with a nice bore. I've never seen or even heard of such a thing. It was just an impulse buy, but if anyone has any idea how or why a Carcano was done this way with British proofs, I'd love to know.
I thought, if nothing else, it would be a good boat gun for the river, for when I get my boat....I don't know....I'm making up excuses for an impulse buy ....but it's such a cute little thing....

View attachment 715956

@Hagler.450Ex
I don't know about a boat gun, might make a good boat paddle.
Unless it was rebarreled with a true 264 barrel you will be lucky to hit a bucket at 25yards.
The Carano has a .268 bore with gain twist rifling so loading a 264 projectile and sending it down the bore will be akin to throwing a sausage down a hallway. It may touch the side sometimes as it rattles up the bore.
Hopefully the British put a .264 barrel on it.
Then you need a special clip to get it to feed otherwise it's a great single shot.
Remember the words caveat emptor. Buyer beware. All that glitters ain't gold.
Bob

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

@Hagler.450Ex
I don't know about a boat gun, might make a good boat paddle.
Unless it was rebarreled with a true 264 barrel you will be lucky to hit a bucket at 25yards.
The Carano has a .268 bore with gain twist rifling so loading a 264 projectile and sending it down the bore will be akin to throwing a sausage down a hallway. It may touch the side sometimes as it rattles up the bore.
Hopefully the British put a .264 barrel on it.
Then you need a special clip to get it to feed otherwise it's a great single shot.
Remember the words caveat emptor. Buyer beware. All that glitters ain't gold.
Bob

Don't talk bad about Scraggles, I like him....

 

[SaintPanzer]

I think there is a lot of confusion here, and a bit of unknowns, but let's go with this:

The Schönauer rifles were chambered in .264. The Carcanos in .268.

Hornady makes specific .268 bullets, so hand loading can solve the problem. But here's the thing: In this case, we do NOT know if the rifle had a new barrel installed when it was re-chambered. At .264 bullet in a .268 would have accuracy issues... but a .268 bullet in a .264 barrel would be, shall we say, "exciting".

With this in mind, I would probably have the chamber cast, and would certainly have the barrel slugged before I did anything.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Don't talk bad about Scraggles, I like him....

@Hagler.450Ex
And who is Scraggles???
Bob

 

[Flbt]

@Hagler.450Ex
I don't know about a boat gun, might make a good boat paddle.
Unless it was rebarreled with a true 264 barrel you will be lucky to hit a bucket at 25yards.
The Carano has a .268 bore with gain twist rifling so loading a 264 projectile and sending it down the bore will be akin to throwing a sausage down a hallway. It may touch the side sometimes as it rattles up the bore.
Hopefully the British put a .264 barrel on it.
Then you need a special clip to get it to feed otherwise it's a great single shot.
Remember the words caveat emptor. Buyer beware. All that glitters ain't gold.
Bob

I wonder if the clip could be 3d printed now?

 

[Huvius]

I wonder if the clip could be 3d printed now?

Carcano clips are on Gunbroker for about $10 a piece.

I have a couple hundred of the Hornady Carcano 160gr RN bullets that I’d sell. They measure at .2665”- .267” with my digital calipers.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Same bore. All they had to do was the chamber.

@Hagler.450Ex
6.5x54 is a .264 bore
6.5x52 Carano .268 bore
Bob

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

I think there is a lot of confusion here, and a bit of unknowns, but let's go with this:

The Schönauer rifles were chambered in .264. The Carcanos in .268.

Hornady makes specific .268 bullets, so hand loading can solve the problem. But here's the thing: In this case, we do NOT know if the rifle had a new barrel installed when it was re-chambered. At .264 bullet in a .268 would have accuracy issues... but a .268 bullet in a .264 barrel would be, shall we say, "exciting".

With this in mind, I would probably have the chamber cast, and would certainly have the barrel slugged before I did anything.

From beginning of military production to end, there never existed a .268 Carcano bullet. The largest recorded are the late production copper-jacket RN solids at .266
The early cupro-nickel jacketed versions were .264 and the same as the 6.5x54 MS rounds.
The original design for the 162grn RN solid bullet was .2638 base to the neck crimp cannelure, tapering to .2559 at the beginning of the ogive.
These were meant to obturate under pressure to partially fill the grooves, which partially happens due to the heavy weight of the extremely long 160grn bullet.
The .267-.268 grooves gave a place for the cupro-nickel fouling to go, as this was a problem being addressed at the time.
The lands are .257, so nothing "rattles" down the bore.
Many of the earlier 1903 6.5x54 MS's had a groove of up to .270-.271, but yet, used the same .264 bullet, this information from a friend who has quite the collection of them and has measured all of them, and has actually solved most of the confusion I was having.
Using a .268 bullet can increase pressures, (remember .257 lands), and reports of jacket separation and 'gas in the face' have been noted with the Hornady .268's, which I suspect is the reason they fully discontinued them.
At the time, 1900-1910, there was much experimentation with jacket material, powders, and bore/groove size, unlike today when everything is quite clear as to what works best.
This is the reason we see so many disparities in the groove size of both the Carcano and MS of the period.
It is also the reason that it was deemed quite satisfactory to rechamber sporting Carcano's to the MS round on occasion, even up to, apparently, the 50's.
What WILL NOT work, are lighter weight bullets than the 160, or boattails, as they do not have enough bearing area for the lands and will, no doubt, act as bird shot.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

@Hagler.450Ex
And who is Scraggles???
Bob

Naming started with my ex in Bavaria, tradition now, so I have around a hundred here all with names. Can't break tradition.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

Carcano clips are on Gunbroker for about $10 a piece.

I have a couple hundred of the Hornady Carcano 160gr RN bullets that I’d sell. They measure at .2665”- .267” with my digital calipers.

Yup, those .2665's would be correct for the later military round. I don't need any, but thanks. It does help clarify some things.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

So, more digging. It seems that a company converted some to the MS round in the 1920's and brought them to the U.S.....these were to make use of the apparent abundance of MS ammunition at the time, so intentionally meant to use the .264 bullet.
It seems the same happened in the 1960's, which this one is, due to its 1942 date, although the company that did them, I don't know.
So, apparently, it was a widely acceptable thing to use the .264 MS ammunition in the Carcano's .268 bore.
How accurate it will be, is yet to be seen. Although I've seen good reports during my search.
I'd like to know the company that did these.

@Hagler.450Ex
The Carano with 6.5x52 Carano ammo and a cheap arse scope was accurate enough for Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate JFK in 63 apparently. Just saying.
Every army even the Italians considered them junk.
In Australia at one time the 70s I think Fuller firearms sporterised them and sold them off to the silly public as the 6.5 westerner for $59. At the same time you could get a 6.5x55 M96 Swede for the same price. If funds were limited you got a 1893 Spanish Mauser carbine that had been converted by the Israeli govt to 308 for the princely sum of $39.Some people will buy anything based on a fancy name.
Bob