A Magazine Or A Second Barrel?

Discussion in 'Articles' started by Kawshik Rahman, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    And you have actually used a double to take what? I mean seriously, you are cutting into your potential readership pretty hard.
     
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  2. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    I wonder sometimes....

    If you need 7 shots to "clean the mess", you should probably not be hunting, especially DG anyway....
    Shot placement rather than magazine capacity should be practiced.
     
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  3. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    IvW
    Your choices are excellent and reflect the experienced White Hunter of today . It is interesting to see that you and Hoss Delgado both own a Zkk 602 rifle . They must be excellent rifles . I will have the privilege to try a Zkk 602 in two months time when l visit the United States of America . Hoss has arranged for me to shoot a .460 Weatherby magnum built on a Zkk 602 rifle mechanism . It is the one calibre which existed during my time , which l had never seen any client ever bring to India ( although , l always hoped that some one would bring it , so that l could try it and see for myself how it is .) . Right before the liberation war of 1971 , l finally exchanged correspondence with a client who was going to bring one for hunting Gaur. However , it was never to be .
    It was reportedly the greatest invention of the American gun maker , Roy Weatherby and the most powerful commercially loaded cartridge of my time .
    I am of same view as you . For Shikar in India , if availability was not an issue , l would use a .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre bolt operation rifle built on a French Brevex mechanism , loaded with Winchester silver tip cartridges for Royal Bengal tigers and 300 grain metal envelope Winchester bullets for Gaur buffaloes ( although the first shot would need to be with a soft nose bullet , as it would be desirable to fire this shot from the side , so that two lungs are pierced and the bullet opens up inside the lungs ) .
    Today , modern cartridges with a controlled rate of expansion have made the humble Winchester silver tip cartridge of my era obsolete . And based on my lay man's understanding of ballistics , one no longer needs to load soft nose bullets and metal envelope bullets into the same magazine for Gaur / buffaloes anymore , due to the modern bullets being able to accomplish everything.
    For pursuing wounded leopard into thick vegetation, l would opt for a double barrel rifle calibrated for the .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre Winchester silver tip 300 grain cartridge. Such a rifle would have two triggers , 26 inch long muzzles ( or less , depending on height and weight of the hunter ) and no automatic safety mechanism.
    Alternatively , a 12 bore Paradox ball-and-shot-gun from Holland and Holland , loaded with a 740 or 750 grain lead bullet would do very nicely . I would probably opt for this over the double barrel .375 , because in India at the time , there was a law that every Shikari ( be it client or local ) could only go into the Shikar field with no more than two fire arms .
    Since the Brevex would be my rifle , the second gun would have to be capable of firing shot anyway.
    On a related subject , is your combined rifle-and-shot-gun an over under or a side by side ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  4. perttime

    perttime AH Veteran

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    "Need" might not be the point.
    From the late Jeff Cooper's stories, I remember him writing that he got a number of buffalo with his 460 G&A 'Baby': one shot to kill the buffalo, a second because the PH said so - but it was still comforting to know he had 4 remaining in the rifle, in case something unexpected happened
     
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  5. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    None ! I took 3 Aussie Water Buff with my .375 HH Mag Winchester M70 :D
    The only DR l ever fired was my Aussie pal's Rigby .470 NE . And it doubled on me :( ! At that point l got enlightened ! Doubles are trouble !
    ( Hey, that rhymes :p )
     

  6. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    Finally ! :D
    Some one who gets me.
     

  7. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    But IvW , you hate double too :(
    Besides , 7 rounds can stop a charge better than 2 rounds , right ?
     

  8. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Hoss Delgado
    This is of no consequence when you place your first shot correctly , which is what every ethical Shikari should always aspire to do .
    Your own grandfather used to own a double barrel rifle . It was calibrated for .577 Nitro Express and built by Westley Richards . Infact , he was the one who pointed it out to me that Stewart Granger owned a .577 Nitro Express calibre double barrel rifle . Does that make Fernando a snob ?
     
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  9. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    Mr. K , are you suffering from amnesia ? :p
    Gramps never owned a double barrel rifle !
     
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  10. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Hoss Delgado
    You live in his house. Ask him right now .
    He used to own a .577 Nitro Express double barrel rifle built by the firm , Westley Richards . He told me so himself in 1967. He also mentioned that he sold the rifle , because ICI Kynoch stopped producing cartridges for it
     
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  11. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    Okay , I call your bluff !
    I'll ask him right now. He lives upstairs. :p There's no way your memory's stronger than mine about my own GrandDad !
     
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  12. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Hoss Delgado
    I am waiting.
     
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  13. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    Fine :( You win . I just asked him. Yeah. He did have a .577 NE that he used for hunting ONE Aussie Water Buff .But the fact that he uses a Winchester M70 in .416 Rem Mag now clearly means that he prefers a bolt gun !
     
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  14. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Hoss Delgado
    did you ask him if he thinks that double barrel rifles are " For snobs and movie hunters " ?
     
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  15. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    Well...no but he is being diplomatic ;).
    He doesn't wanna join the debate.
     
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  16. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Hoss Delgado
    I give up . When your book is published after your African Safari , just add a small editor's note which says " Mr. Rahman does not necessarily share the same views as me in some things , even though he wrote chapter six and chapter seven " .
     

  17. mark-hunter

    mark-hunter AH Fanatic

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    Reading this, its like witnessing some family reunion... :)
     
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  18. Bullthrower338

    Bullthrower338 AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    Hoss,
    I can assure you I am neither a snob ow wanna-be anything. If there was a trust fund from my relatives, I must have missed it!
    Our first job as a client hunter is to do everything in our power to make certain that the FIRST bullet that leaves the muzzle is on point and that there is no mess to clean up with an additional 6 rounds. I’m a firm believer in follow up shots, it is both ethical and helps to ensure the safety of the hunters and lessens the chance of lost game.
    A marksmanship instructor at Fort Benning, Georgia said something during a class that has stuck in my mind for 28 years so far. He said “Just because you have 30 rounds in your magazine doesn’t mean that you don’t need to aim, act like each squeeze of the trigger is your only shot. Your life and your buddy’s life depends on it.” It was very sage advice, some of us are capable of learning through lessons learned during life and some will speak out their ass of things they know nothing about.
    I refer to most of those people as Democrats.
     
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  19. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    That is very true . Just because a rifle can hold seven cartridges , does not mean that you should stop trying to end things with the first one .
    During our liberation war in 1971 , my service weapon was a fully automatic Kolashnikov Soviet 7.62 millimeter rifle. It had a magazine holding thirty cartridges . Ammunition was in short supply and our trainers specifically advised us to avoid fully automatic fire and instead to opt for short bursts of three or four cartridges at a time .
     
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  20. Wyatt Smith

    Wyatt Smith AH Enthusiast

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    I believe Don Heath said the double rifle was great tool for a PH. He said the ranges at which a PH will stop a charge don’t leave much time to work the bolt. But I believe he used a bolt action in most of his work.
     
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