458 Lott ate my QD Warne rings

[colorado]

I have Talley steel QR rings on our 375 Weatherby, 416 Rem, and 500 jeffery (over 500 full power rounds with the 500 Jeffery) zero issues so far.

 

[Corey0372]

Having some trouble with zeroing my set up today. Popped the scope off and there are chunks coming out of the recoil lug of the back ring. Has anyone had this happen before? Scope was on there tight, but a heavy scope in a Vortex Razor 1-6. View attachment 371349View attachment 371350View attachment 371351View attachment 371352

I'd look into some mounts from Larue Tactical, guys use them on everything from 5.56 to 50 BMG and trust their lives with them.

 

[BeeMaa]

I'd look into some mounts from Larue Tactical, guys use them on everything from 5.56 to 50 BMG and trust their lives with them.

LaRue does not offer a direct mount to the CZ550 action.

One of the reasons for having a CZ550 is the double square bridge.
With dovetails and the notch it eliminates an adapter and makes QR possible.
You simply go from the receiver to the rings to the scope...no rail needed.
This also allows the scope to be mounted as low as possible.
With such a heavy recoiling rifle, adding another rail would only make the problem worse.

LaRue is a trusted name and I applaud your recommendation of them.
However this is not the correct application of a tactical mount.

 

[machinistbutler]

I lent Richard Near of Near Manufacturing one of my CZ 550 last year to design a ring set up. I use his alphamounts on other rifles and they are fantastic, kind of a 3 ring set up. Unfortunately he was just too busy to do it . I will wait to hear from Warne on this issue.

I wonder if a regular set up instead of quick detatch one could do up a bit tighter? Then just have a torx in ones kit in case it had to be removed in the field. The scope isn't moving in the rings, just seems like the grip on the dovetails wasn't strong enough for the recoil,or the steel too soft on the lug.

 

[BeeMaa]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned Alaska Arms.
Although I've not used them myself, I've heard good things about them.

Machined from solid bar stock, heat treated and carry a lifetime guarantee.
They are not cheap, but you generally get what you pay for.

 

[machinistbutler]

I sent Alaskan arms an email , and described what my use will be. I have a couple 550 without scope set ups at the moment so may try a set if they ship to Canada. Talleys are available close by from a favourite gunship of mine as well .

Still love how stout the warne rings are, always when I put the scope back on the rifle they returned to zero every time. I am sure I just happened to get a bad one.

Glad it didn't happen on a hunt, buy I test the heck out of my gear before I take it hunting. Used my 375 H&H for 15 years before I took it to Africa

 

[WAB]

A buddy had Alaska rings fail on his Lott. They were not milled steel, looked like aluminum to me. They were 30 mm rings and at the time someone told me that their 1” and 30mm rings were of different material. I don’t know if that is true or if they have different grades but I would check into it before buying.

 

[machinistbutler]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned Alaska Arms.
Although I've not used them myself, I've heard good things about them.

Machined from solid bar stock, heat treated and carry a lifetime guarantee.
They are not cheap, but you generally get what you pay for.

Finally figured out how to reply to a message lol.

I don't think anything is cheap in the big bore game. I spent a fair bit getting this rifle imported from the USA. Purchased a bell and Carlson stock as I heard the Lott can hurt the factory wood stocks. Scope was a bit pricey, about the same as what my Schmidt Bender Zenith cost. I want good rings as well! Bought a bunch of Barnes before I could find the Swift Aframes, which I have quite a few to practice with.

I can't afford to buy cheap stuff! When I make it back to Africa I want myself to be the weak link.

 

[machinistbutler]

Did the magnet test on the rings, definitely magnetic. Not sure if sintered steel is or not, don't have my machinerys handbook out here.

I did see some pics of Talley's that had the recoil lug peeled right off on a Cz 550 in the Lott, and WAB's friend had his Alaskan rings fail. The Lott is living up to its reputation!

I have some old Leupold 1 inch rings that I may try with a lighter Leupold scope and see how they fare. I used them on my 375 with a couple scopes before I bought the Schmidt.

Company in Canada has the CZ Rings , they are steel but don't look near as stout as the Warnes. Made in Czech Republic. Has anyone tried the CZ Rings? They have QD and one piece mounts .

 

[BeeMaa]

Finally figured out how to reply to a message lol.

I don't think anything is cheap in the big bore game. I spent a fair bit getting this rifle imported from the USA. Purchased a bell and Carlson stock as I heard the Lott can hurt the factory wood stocks. Scope was a bit pricey, about the same as what my Schmidt Bender Zenith cost. I want good rings as well! Bought a bunch of Barnes before I could find the Swift Aframes, which I have quite a few to practice with.

I can't afford to buy cheap stuff! When I make it back to Africa I want myself to be the weak link.

Apologies.
I did not mean to imply that the Warne rings are inexpensive (or cheap).
You are absolutely correct...nothing about big bores is inexpensive.

I had a CZ550 375H&H with the B&C stock and an AHR #2 upgrade.
It did have 1" Warne QD rings with a Leupold 1.5-5x20 scope.
Not even close to the recoil levels of your 458LOTT.
And the 30mm scope adds a level inertia on top of that.

 

[Dirtdart]

I have not had any issues with Talley detachable rings (screws not lever) on my CZ 550's but the .416 Rigby and .404 Jeffery are more gentle than a .458 Lott.
I cannot attest to the strength of the factory CZ rings but when handling them they didn't really inspire confidence.
Personally I want full access to the magazine on the larger calibers so I have not tried any of the set ups that bridge the action. I have only used straight tube scopes on the calibers mentioned and like to put that front ring up far enough to where it will kiss the tapered part of the bridge. Worked well so far.
There is a company on *bay that advertises a base/ring set up that they claim is the only one that can stand up to 585 Nyati recoil. I did find the description if that set up interesting and the negative issues addressed such as a single lug etc. Might inspire confidence.

 

[machinistbutler]

The warne guys got back to me very quickly when I sent them a message on messenger. Their service guy will contact me Monday.

I really want to use the Lott or Rigby on a buffalo hunt, and was hoping for QD rings. Makes it quick to try the scope on my other cz rifles too.

Maybe it was an issue of not doing the levers tight enough, one would think the combo of the dovetails and the lug everything should be good. If the lever wasn't quite tight enough the rings wouldn't grip the dovetail tightly enough , and the lug would be forced to do all the work.

 

[One Day...]

Having some trouble with zeroing my set up today. Popped the scope off and there are chunks coming out of the recoil lug of the back ring. Has anyone had this happen before? Scope was on there tight, but a heavy scope in a Vortex Razor 1-6.

I am sorry to hear this, but not altogether shocked. Do not despair, it has been seen before and it is all part of the really big thumpers world

Even drilled and tapped the receiver for larger screws on a second set of Talley mounts, locktighted and torqued the screws to 20 foot pounds. With light reloads, first round and the mounts and scope blew off.

I am on record for constantly telling first time DG rifles owners, again and again, to beware of screwed-on scope bases on heavy recoil rifles, and to prefer the CZ 550 double square bridge with integral dovetail to other rifles (e.g. Win 70) with screwed-on bases, if only for this reason alone... Thank you Ridge Runner for sharing your experience, I can only wish that people who doubt that a scope can shear its bases would all read your post...

To address several posts in this thread, here is what I see here: clearly the surface coating chipped away, but - from the picture available - it seems that the steel of the mount itself did not. It shows recess, but looking at the picture it does not seem to show a crack. This is important. Please read on...

Note: by the way, this is why one prefers traditional bluing, or modern plasma nitriding, to cera-coating etc. on mechanical parts. Coatings chip away, bluing or nitriding do not...

I have seen this before, and this is not necessarily terminal. What I have seen happen before is that the surface of the notch and the surface of the lug are not exactly parallel, so the edge of the notch progressively bites into the lug, and the lug gets mated to the notch until the two surfaces have full bearing, at which point the mating stops.

The bottom line is that the Lott and similar high recoil rifles (e.g .460 Wby; .500 Jeff, .505 Gibbs, etc.) are operating at the edge of mechanical survival for both mounts and scope internals. YES, lighter scopes help tremendously, but still, the forces at play are considerable... It is not by chance that in the old days .40+ rifles were not scoped...

Sure, tightening the rings helps - in my experience you should not be able to undo them by hand with simple thumb pressure. You want another 1/8 turn after maximum thumb pressure. I do this by laying a coin on the lever and pushing on the coin. The coin distribute the pressure of the push over its entire surface on my thumb, instead of the sharp lever end digging into it, and I gain substantially added tightness. It certainly helps.

Another thing I have seen bore and you want to check is that you want to verify that your front ring is far enough from the rounded end of the dovetail at the front of the front bridge, so that as the front ring moves forward while the rear ring seats, the front ring sharp edges do not dig into the dovetail rounded end. If it does, your point of impact will shift...

Yet another thing I have seen before regarding the Alaska Arms rings, I would advise against them on hard recoiling CZ 550. The recoil lug is not part of the mount itself, but it is part of moving clamp. This means that the brunt of the recoil forces are not born by the mount but by the screw. You can easily guess what will happen next...

In summary, I would advise to tighten the lever harder, per the method recommended above, and shoot another 20 rounds to see if things settle. I personally suspect that with the notch and lug surfaces in full contact, things will stabilize.

If not, then the hardening of the lug metal is faulty and there is nothing to do but change them...

 

[WAB]

@One Day, I believe the OP’s failure is on a CZ, which has the integral mounts you like. I wonder if there is an issue with the milling on the CZ itself. Uneven seating would magnify the stress. @machinestbutler, have you checked this out? I have seen QD mounts work perfectly on both M70 and CZ’s in Lott. There is no way the rifle inherently has too much recoil for a QD system. Something else is up.

 

[machinistbutler]

Thanks a bunch @One Day... . I agree tightening a bit more should and would help. The Lott is in a different league than the 375 .

I may try and file the lug square where it is worn . Then I can see if it causes any more wear. I agree blueing would be a better finish on these. The matte finish seems rather thick.

I use a lot of nitro rod when I build certain parts, I wonder if a nitrided coating would work better , it is hard as heck but may alter the heat-treating of such small parts. It darn sure wouldn't get wear marks on it , but it may wear into the receiver itself .

 

[machinistbutler]

@WAB I think I may have to just tighten the Qd levers more. The pics I seen today of the failed talleys show the same wear groove I am getting, as well as a bad fracture of the steel in the lug. My warnes are not fractured, just have a deep groove worn in, and a bulge or mushrooming in the lug. I will clean it up a bit and try it again , or wait till Monday to see what the warne tech says.

 

[One Day...]

@One Day, I believe the OP’s failure is on a CZ, which has the integral mounts you like. I wonder if there is an issue with the milling on the CZ itself. Uneven seating would magnify the stress. @machinestbutler, have you checked this out? I have seen QD mounts work perfectly on both M70 and CZ’s in Lott. There is no way the rifle inherently has too much recoil for a QD system. Something else is up.

Yes it is, I saw this instantly but this is still a good opportunity to make the point re. screwed on bases... These calibers certainly do not have enough recoil for a QD system (i.e. the clamping of the rings into the bases dovetails), but they sure often do for the 4 screws 6-48 or even 8-40 that secure bases on most rifles to shear off, if the rifles are shot enough (which in truth darn few of them are ).

I do not think that anything "is up". Quite simply the internal surface of the notch is not squared with the external surface of the lug. This could be caused by the machining of the notch, the machining of the lug, or the mounting of the rings on the scope tube, or all the above combined. As I said, I have seen this before

Thanks a bunch @One Day... . I agree tightening a bit more should and would help. The Lott is in a different league than the 375 .

I may try and file the lug square where it is worn . Then I can see if it causes any more wear. I agree blueing would be a better finish on these. The matte finish seems rather thick.

I would advise against filing or in any way modifying the surface of the lug at this stage. There is nothing you can do that will bring better full surface contact (which is what you want) than what recoil forces already did for you. All it would do would be to restart the issue, unless you were to also square the notch internal surface, which is an entirely different ball game...

I would leave things as they are and see if things stabilize with another couple dozens shots... Often "best" is the enemy of "good" when it comes to this type of issues...

PS: do check that the front ring is not biting into the rounded end of the dovetail of the front bridge though

 

[rookhawk]

Just one question:

was the shooting occurring while using a lead sled? I’ve seen many horrible issues with magnums 416 and up being shot from a lead sled. A heavy scope exacerbated it, that energy wants to go some where, end it would appear the Metal will yield before the sled.

apologies if it was not shot from a sled. I’ll bet you a beer it won’t happen half as fast shooting off sticks though!

 

[Red Leg]

I have never had a problem with the Talley system on anything. Their finish is superior to Warne which means they mar a scope less, and I have never had a set fail with any caliber.

And never an issue with a lead sled which I have used for over a decade.

 

[One Day...]

Actually, sorry to say, not trying to be disagreeable, but this is the opposite rookhawk.

Since a lead sled prevents the rifle action from recoiling fast and hard, it would actually minimize rather than maximize the recoil forces on the scope mounting system. The issue at hand here is the rifle action moving back fast under the recoil impulse while the scope is not moving back as fast as the action is, due to its mass inertia. Preventing the recoil would reduce the stress on the mount.

The damage that lead sleds occasionally cause is to the brittle and/or poorly bedded stocks, because the action still tries to recoil but the stock is prevented from recoiling by the sled.

+1 on Talley. This is what I use myself on my CZs...