458 Flat Nosed Solids For Elephant

[ldmay375]

Volatile might be an understatement. I shot one round at book minimum and made case mouth looks wavy and irregular. You sir are wise beyond your years. I’ll order some AA 2230 this morning View attachment 606567

I would not have thought the powder choice created that case mouth condition.

 

[michael458]

Volatile might be an understatement. I shot one round at book minimum and made case mouth looks wavy and irregular. You sir are wise beyond your years. I’ll order some AA 2230 this morning View attachment 606567

I have never seen a case mouth effected like that after being fired? I can't even imagine how that could happen, Higher pressures would IRON that out nice and round......... Too little pressure?

Even then....? Did you experience heavy bolt lift, hard extraction, marks on the case, how does the primer look??? Lots of questions on that one........ Smokey case? I just don't know............. Odd....

I have seen some odd case mouths after firing Corn Meal loads to fire form some brass, but never with a actual bullet............

Regardless, if you can get some AA 2230 on the way you will be in better shape overall, its about the best powder for 458 Winchester you can use overall for heavier bullets in the 450 class..... But, you also have to watch most powders, your powder might not be MY POWDER, so start at lower charges, work the way up from there watching the rifle and brass, they will talk to you if you know how to listen...............

 

[Riflecrank]

Bizarre for sure !

I like H335 in the .223, and rule of thumb is anything good in a .223 is good in a .458 WinMag.
Bob Mitchell in Ontario is fond of it.
I don't use it in .458 WM mainly because it might not be as insensitive to temperature as some other choices:

Hodgdon:
H4198
Benchmark
H322
H4895
Varget
CFE 223 with 500-grain bullets

Accurate:
2230
2460

IMR:
8208 XBR

Not sure about ThermoBallisticIndependence (TBI) of this,
Alliant:
Power Pro Varmint
But it has Federal's approval for their 500-gr TBSS load at 3.275" COL and 2213 fps
in a 24"-barreled .458 WinMag, at no more than 60,000 psi.
That is in Federal brass, F215 primer, 77.1 grains mildly compressed.

 

[ldmay375]

Hard to tell from the picture, and pictures can be deceptive.
But, is that a > mark below the crimp line ? New brass ? Almost as if the crimped portion was impeded from straightening to length. Definitely strange.

 

[Riflecrank]

I never would have thought a powder could suck brass into the throat with a starting load.
Does H355 suck ?
How long is that deformed piece of brass at its longest distance from breech face ?
The SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber is 2.520" long for maximum brass of 2.500",
generous for combat.

I have seen some high pressure loads stretch asymmetrically at case mouth,
taller on one side than the other.
Never anything that I would not just trim to uniform and continue using the brass.
A brass defect or annealing defect ?
Soft in a non-uniform pattern around the case mouth ?

Just jumping in late here, did Twisted say what make of brass got twisted like that ?

 

[Riflecrank]

Oops, typo, H355 would surely suck.
I meant "Does H335 suck ?"

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Anyone seen H4895 powder recently? Need to try this out as it’s supposed to be the go to powder with the 458 Lott.

HH

 

[Hunting Hitman]

So I loaded up some 500 grain CEB flat nose bullets for my 458 Lott and came up with the following on a 5 shot test pattern with all bullets touching.
Federal 215 Large Magnum Gold Medal Primer
Hornady Brass
80 grains of Accurate 2520
2265 fps (5 shot Average)

Then I loaded the CEB Raptors in 470 grain:

Federal 215 Large Magnum Gold Medal Primer
Hornady Brass
80 grains of Accurate 2520
2290 FPS (5 shot group)

All bullets are hitting in the same place and this is the load I’m taking to Namibia in July for my 4 week safari with Zana Botes.

HH

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

So I loaded up some 500 grain CEB flat nose bullets for my 458 Lott and came up with the following on a 5 shot test pattern with all bullets touching.
Federal 215 Large Magnum Gold Medal Primer
Hornady Brass
80 grains of Accurate 2520
2265 fps (5 shot Average)

Then I loaded the CEB Raptors in 470 grain:

Federal 215 Large Magnum Gold Medal Primer
Hornady Brass
80 grains of Accurate 2520
2290 FPS (5 shot group)

All bullets are hitting in the same place and this is the load I’m taking to Namibia in July for my 4 week safari with Zana Botes.

HH

Good work, but no pictures to tell the tale, then it didn't happen!! Just kidding of course, have a great hunt.

 

[michael458]

So I loaded up some 500 grain CEB flat nose bullets for my 458 Lott and came up with the following on a 5 shot test pattern with all bullets touching.
Federal 215 Large Magnum Gold Medal Primer
Hornady Brass
80 grains of Accurate 2520
2265 fps (5 shot Average)

Then I loaded the CEB Raptors in 470 grain:

Federal 215 Large Magnum Gold Medal Primer
Hornady Brass
80 grains of Accurate 2520
2290 FPS (5 shot group)

All bullets are hitting in the same place and this is the load I’m taking to Namibia in July for my 4 week safari with Zana Botes.

HH

That is excellent work @Hunting Hitman , and all over close to some work I did with 458 Lott in 2013....EXCEPT, not 500 gr CEBs, but 480 CEB Solids.............

11/15/13

480 #13 Solid

80/AA 2520

Fed 215

2298

2290

8

2294

58096 PSI

Your 500/470 Solid/Raptor combo is working exactly as designed........... Well done......

 

[6.5 wildcatter]

Back to the OP’s specific question:

With respect to your question on using the 0.416” 400 grain CEB Solid, I had a chance to shoot a medium size tuskless 2 years ago with a 404 Jeffery Win M-70 using the CEB BBW#13 0.423“ 400 gain FP Solid loaded with RL-17 to MV 2500 fps. A lateral heart shot at ~40 yds through the heart exited through the off shoulder. Almost the duplicate of michael458’s shot. Elephant went about 30 yards. Although this bullet is slightly larger in diameter than the 0.416” you’re considering using, the performance should be just about identical

In the 458 WM, I’ve settled on the CEB BBW #13 450 grain FP Solid you’ve cited, at 2400 fps MV with 2230 powder. That load has also shot through a tuskless in a setting almost identical to the 404J shot described above with the same results.

I use the 500 grain CEB BBW #13 in the larger volume cases of the 460 G&A and 450 Rigby Rimless. The former at 2400 fps and the latter at 2450 fps. I used the G&A last year on a tuskless. All bullets, starting with the initial frontal brain shot which dropped the animal at just over 35 yds, the subsequent insurance shots - side brain, frontal and lateral chest - exited.

As to the other question in the thread about the ballistic performance of the Barnes Banded Solid vs the CEB BBW #13, I’ve found that using the same powders and loads with each, at very similar COAL, the MVs are very close with Barnes, in my rifles (500 NE 3” DR, 450 Rigby Rimless), the Barnes seems to produce a very slightly higher MV.

 

[Kudu 52]

All over the front of my shirt..... what a nasty mess.......... HEH.............be glad you are @TOBY458 and have a 458 backing you up, if that said 375 I would not even speak to you.........

When you are ready to Load Up real bullets and cartridges, let me know, will clue you in where to start, and end...........

I'm loading 458 ceb #13 solid in a win m70 22 inch barrel using aa2230 getting 2187 fps 70.5 grains powder do you have any better load data for 458 wm also going to load 420 raptor.

 

[michael458]

I'm loading 458 ceb #13 solid in a win m70 22 inch barrel using aa2230 getting 2187 fps 70.5 grains powder do you have any better load data for 458 wm also going to load 420 raptor.

First, you are getting very good velocity with 70.5/AA 2230 with the 450 #13. I tested AA 2230 fairly extensively with the 450 #13 in 2011, again in 2013, and once again in 2022. I was very disappointed in the changes that occurred over these tests, which showed inconsistency with the powder. I found large changes from one test to the other, and testing 2022 AA 2230 against 2013 AA 2230 showed large changes in pressures. I had to drop charges with the 2022 AA 2230 a good bit to get under max pressures. I would not exceed 60000-62000 PSI in 458 Winchester, and probably best to be slightly under that for the field.

The good thing about this, you don't have to achieve top end velocity with this bullet to achieve success. You are good to go, where you are currently. But yes, I get it, we always want more!

That said, these are the results I got in 2022 with a Winchester M70 20 Inch barrel take note...... and take note of the COL tested at 3.282 or close.

As always, this data is perfectly safe in My Rifle, with My Powder, My Primers and my Cases....... You do not have My Powder, My Primers, or my Cases...... Proceed with proper caution and proper load safety. I do not trust AA 2230 completely, and your powder might not be the same vintage as mine. I will show you the differences even in appearance from 2013 Vintage to 2022 Vintage.... not the same powder. To be quite honest, I would look at other powders for this, I had good results with IMR 8208 and X-Terminator. I think H-4895 is well worth a more in depth study, and for the life of me I can't figure out why I did not do more with the H-4895? I do show 2013 Tests and 2022 Tests with the H-4895. Before I finished 2022 data Benchmark was also showing promise, my Benchmark tested was 2013 Vintage, and I bought a new 2022 vintage to test but never got to it.

 

[Brandon.Gleason]

I had similar "wavy" case mouths after shooting CEB's from my Lott. They were loaded to moderate (2200fps) velocity with RL15 powder and crimped with a Lee FCD. I noticed it on both Hornady cases as well as Swift nickel plated cases. It cleaned up easily with a trim. I'm contemplating starting to anneal every few firings to see if that lessens it. I haven't shot the Lott much since my elephant hunt in 2023, so its fallen off the radar.