.375 vs .404 jeffry

[Ontario Hunter]

You easily can make it from .430 dia. Sierra 300 gr. soft point.
Just swadge it down to .423 dia.
Reloading data from Quick Load.

HWL

Thanks for that. I will keep it in mind.

 

[Shootist43]

Ontario Hunter, I've been a 404 Jeffery fan for a number of years. It was Von Gruff's opinion of the caliber that made me by my first one. If you'd send Von Gruff a PM I'll bet he'll give you his recipe for cast lead bullets.

 

[nztimb]

Ontario Hunter, I've been a 404 Jeffery fan for a number of years. It was Von Gruff's opinion of the caliber that made me by my first one. If you'd send Von Gruff a PM I'll bet he'll give you his recipe for cast lead bullets.

Happy to Have a yarn about cast bullets for the 404 Jeffery @Ontario Hunter as I did do some exhaustive testing of this cartridge with both cast and jacketed bullets and was able to get over 2300fps and good open sight hunting accuracy with 380gn cast bullet but the real accuracy load was in the 1900fps region for the cast bullet with a custom mould made to my specs to suit my barrel with best cast bullet understanding in the design. My rifle was fitted with aperture sight only.

 

[Nevada Mike]

There is little question that the .375 H&H is a more versatile cartridge than the .404 Jeffery. But the Jeffery throws a bigger heavier bullet.

In a conversation with my PH (Mike Angelides) while examining a bull buffalo I had shot with my .404J, he said that he said that he never sees that amount of massive destruction and wound channel diameter from a .375. He thought that the .404J was, perhaps, better on buffalo than the 416 Rigby. Up to thta point Mike had never had a client who used a .404J, which said he thought of a 'old fashioned' until he saw the results we had on the buffaloes I shot.

I have a .375 H&H and like it. Great cartridge for large medium game and reasonably flat shooting. I will use my 404 on anything bigger.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

So I was looking at maybe purchasing a Montana rifle chambered in .404 Jeffry.

Then I started looking at what I had vs what I would be getting, and charted it out.
For a .375 Ruger with 300 grain bullets
Energy. 4,713 ft/lbs
SD .304
Frontal area .110 square inches

.404 Jeffry with 400 grain bullets
Energy 4,698 ft/lbs
SD .320
Frontal area .139 square inches

Energy was taken from Wikipedia
I used 300 grain for the .375 because that is standard DG solid 270 grain has more energy but I don’t know if any 270 grain solids
I used 400 grain for Jeffry because the listed energy for 450 was much lower due to much lower velocity. 350 grain gave up a lot of SD.
I used frontal area for solids instead of softs because expansion can be pretty inconsistent from shot to shot on softs.

So looking at the numbers, they are equal in energy 15 ft/lbs is negligible.
The .404 has 5% better sectional density, which is a small, but consistent gain.
Frontal area is the only thing that the .404 has a big leg up on the .375. A 20% gain is big

This leaves me confused though. I have always heard and believed that the .40 calibers, and the .404 in particular hit a buffalo a lot harder than a .375

Just looking at the data though, I don’t understand why. 5% better SD and 20% bigger Frontal area is definitely a step up, but shouldn’t be a night and day difference.

So why does the 404 hit so much harder? Is it something I haven’t considered?

Buying a 404Jeffery is reasoning with your hart and emotions. Buying a. 375 H&H Magnum is being practical, logical as well as being sensible.. Since it is much more versatile in use.

I have both, I will take them hunting everytime and spend time with both in the bush.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Buying a 404Jeffery is reasoning with your hart and emotions. Buying a. 375 H&H Magnum is being practical, logical as well as being sensible.. Since it is much more versatile in use.

I have both, I will take them hunting everytime and spend time with both in the bush.

Cutting Edge in Idaho makes quite a variety of .423 bullets that should make my 404 Jeffery quite "versatile." 257 gr should have some range. 300, 325, and 350 gr are also available. I'm thinking 325 gr would be quite versatile. However, I've never seen loading data for anything but 400 gr. I'm a bit concerned about recoil with my history of retina problems so seriously considering ordering some lightweights (I have an ample supply of Barnes 400 gr that came with my reloading kit). Anyone have experience with Cutting Edge?

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Cutting Edge in Idaho makes quite a variety of .423 bullets that should make my 404 Jeffery quite "versatile." 257 gr should have some range. 300, 325, and 350 gr are also available. I'm thinking 325 gr would be quite versatile. However, I've never seen loading data for anything but 400 gr. I'm a bit concerned about recoil with my history of retina problems so seriously considering ordering some lightweights (I have an ample supply of Barnes 400 gr that came with my reloading kit). Anyone have experience with Cutting Edge?

The lightest 404 Jeffery (.423) bullets you can use is 350 gn

 

[Justbryan]

Reloader= 404 (really need to reload)
Non-Reloader=375 (able to buy ammo in Africa if luggage lost)

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The lightest 404 Jeffery (.423) bullets you can use is 350 gn

Why? 300 gr looks like it should shoot. I can't imagine Cutting Edge would make 325 gr if they don't work. Jeffery initially offered ammo in 300 and 400 gr when they first designed their guns in 1905 so I presume the gun was capable of shooting lighter bullets. They dropped 300 gr eventually because the bullets came apart in "thick skinned animals" But those bullets were turn of the century (last one, not this one) technology. Cutting Edge copper bullets are light years ahead of old cup and core stuff. Anyway, there's nothing that says a 404 needs to be specifically for thick skinned dangerous game. I think a high speed 257 gr .423 bullet would probably do a better job flattening a leopard than a much slower 400 gr. But it might be a jaw dropper for taxidermist when he sees the exit wound. Why would a 250 gr copper bullet in .375 work for everything but not a 257 gr .423?

 

[Bonk]

Why would a 250 gr copper bullet in .375 work for everything but not a 257 gr .423?

Not saying I agree or disagree with your premise but one consideration could be different twist rates.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Not saying I agree or disagree with your premise but one consideration could be different twist rates.

Mine is being made 1:14. That's what was recommended. I think I would prefer a twist with some milage for lighter bullets. The heavy 400 gr are for 50 yards. Seems to me twist rate wouldn't affect their accuracy greatly at that range. Should be able to get minute of buffalo.

I understand Barnes requires a significant jump to rifling lands. Thirty to fifty thousandths. Is this a universal thing with copper bullets or just Barnes?

 

[ldmay375]

Mine is being made 1:14. That's what was recommended. I think I would prefer a twist with some milage for lighter bullets. The heavy 400 gr are for 50 yards. Seems to me twist rate wouldn't affect their accuracy greatly at that range. Should be able to get minute of buffalo.

I understand Barnes requires a significant jump to rifling lands. Thirty to fifty thousandths. Is this a universal thing with copper bullets or just Barnes?

Hammer Bullets also makes a 307 grain for the 404 Jeffery.
Some say, "most" monolithics prefer a healthy jump to the lands. Though I have read success with not so long of a jump. The bullet ogive may come into the equation at some point. Some of my rifle / cartridge combinations give me a healthy jump due to magazine length.
CEB may be of some help with load data with their bullets.

 

[DB404]

Jeffery offered 300 grain loaded ammo (2600 fps) long ago. He told John Taylor it was meant for hunting thin skinned game cross canyon “in Asia”.

I built my 404 as a dual purpose rifle - Alaska and Africa. It was my intention to use 325 or 350 gr bullets (Barnes did offer 350 gr spitzer shaped bullets at one time - still have some) for fun in the mountains. No reason a person couldn’t push those slugs safely to 2750.

I had a .375 at the time, plus a .338 and a 45-70 1886 carbine. The 45-70 became my go to for walking in the alders - 8 rounds of 400gr Kodiak bonded core at 2,050 fps made a lot of sense; the .338 seemed better for alpine than the .375 due to running a bit flatter. So the .375 eventually left home.

I’ve often thought that a .423 hollow-point 400 gr cast lead bullet in the 404 could be quite useful for lots of different things; just never got around to making it happen.

All the best - Dave

 

[Jack Stevens]

Have got an order coming in from Bengal Bullets of their coated GC-ed .424 HC slug. Pricing was very reasonable for a 500ct order.

390grns is what is pictured below but with his new mould and new coating it’s actually supposed to be right at 400grns. The owner is “Keith” and he was very responsive to all my emails.

.404 (.424") - 390 Grain LFNGC — Bengal Bullets

390 grain Long Flat Nose Gas Check sized to .424.” Meplat is .26”and nose length is .62.”

www.bengalbullets.com

We’ll see how they shoot and how fast they can be driven, but at least for now there’s a domestic U.S. source for relatively inexpensive HC .404J slugs that, being coated and GC-ed, won’t lead up the barrel.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

With .375 Holland & Holland Magnum
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With .404 Jeffery.

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Heavier bullets from larger calibers tends to deliver comparatively more shock to the central nervous system of game (assuming that the velocity is proportionate to the bullet weight and the bullet has sufficient sectional density). They are also much more useful for body shots on big bull elephant. The heavier calibers punch larger wound cavities into the vital organs (i.e heart & lungs) of the elephant and accelerate the rate of blood loss… which in turn causes the game to hemorrhage quicker.

Take one bull tusker, for example. I put a full magazine (6 rounds) of 300Gr Remington round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids into his heart-lung region from a BRNO ZKK602 (in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum). He actually managed to cross a stream and expired on the other side of the stream after 45 minutes or so (we found him after an hour). Postmortem showed that no less than 3 of the solids had gone through his heart. It didn’t seem to slow him down one bit.

Now, some might say “Modern .375 solids would have been far more effective on the elephant bull”. True, but in this case… those Remington FMJ solids had done exactly what they were supposed to do- Punching through the heart. A modern Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solid couldn’t have done any better in this regard. But despite all that, they didn’t punch wound cavities into the animal’s vital organs which were large enough to cause him to hemorrhage from blood loss quickly.

I strongly believe that if I was armed with a .404 Jeffery on that day (loaded with modern 400Gr Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solids), then that bull elephant wouldn’t have been able to get away so far. Oh, and one more thing. I don’t like the old English .404 Jeffery loadings which achieved only 2150fps. I much prefer the Continental European .404 Jeffery loadings (as pioneered by the German firm, DWM) which achieved 2330fps. The ballistic performance and terminal effect on big game are much more apparent with the souped up high velocity loading.

You can definitely reload up to 2300f/s on your 404 Jeffery with a 400gn bullet.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Why? 300 gr looks like it should shoot. I can't imagine Cutting Edge would make 325 gr if they don't work. Jeffery initially offered ammo in 300 and 400 gr when they first designed their guns in 1905 so I presume the gun was capable of shooting lighter bullets. They dropped 300 gr eventually because the bullets came apart in "thick skinned animals" But those bullets were turn of the century (last one, not this one) technology. Cutting Edge copper bullets are light years ahead of old cup and core stuff. Anyway, there's nothing that says a 404 needs to be specifically for thick skinned dangerous game. I think a high speed 257 gr .423 bullet would probably do a better job flattening a leopard than a much slower 400 gr. But it might be a jaw dropper for taxidermist when he sees the exit wound. Why would a 250 gr copper bullet in .375 work for everything but not a 257 gr .423?

My opinion, reason, it does not make any sense to download a 404 Jeffery to be able to shoot it, or hunt with it.. Rather use a rifle caliber you can shoot properly to kill instantly... Like a 9.3x62 or a 8x68 or a. 416 Rigby or a. 375 H&H Magnum.

Or learn to shoot a 404 Jeffery using 400gn at 2300f/s when hunting buffalo or elephant, or use a 450gn bullet to hunt Buffalo as Dr. Kevin Robertson suggested.
Download g a large bore riffle to hunt dangerous game does not make any sense.
When hunting impala, kudu or blue wildebeest you can use 300gn bullets for sure..

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Why stick with medium bores? Keep your 375 and get a 505 Gibbs or 500 Jeffery?

Since the 500 Jeffery is an image thing, if you are not able to kill a buffalo or elephant with a 375 cal, or. 416 cal or a. 423 cal rifle it means you negating the effective use of the capable calibers to only rely on a larger bullet diameter, not even including your own capability to use a medium bore rifle to kill a dangerous animal..
Aswell as negating the most important aspect:shot placement
. 500 Jeffery rarely are ussedd to hunt buffalo or elephant by a client, the PH uses it as a back up rifle..

 

[Jack Stevens]

My opinion, reason, it does not make any sense to download a 404 Jeffery to be able to shoot it, or hunt with it. Rather use a rifle caliber you can shoot properly to kill instantly... * * *
Or learn to shoot a 404 Jeffery using 400gn at 2300f/s when hunting buffalo or elephant, or use a 450gn bullet to hunt Buffalo as Dr. Kevin Robertson suggested.

You have no idea what you’re talking about regarding what constitutes proper .404 Jeffery ballistics.

The .404J with a 400grn bullet, which was the cartridge’s dominant bullet-weight since its inception, was never loaded in factory ammo to Rigby levels (i.e., 2300+fps) until Hornady pumped-up its velocity in the early 2000s when African hunting and the modern loading of the old African cartridges returned to vogue. The 400grn/.404J was always a 2100-2150fps load for decades and it was that original velocity range which made its reputation in Africa - reported incidents of bullet failure due to poor construction notwithstanding - on everything from elephants, rhinos, buffalo, and tigers, down to all the lesser plains game.

In fact, as loaded by Kynoch, their version of the .400grn Jeffery load only just made 2125fps from a 28” barrel. That same load from the much more typical 23” or 24“ Jeffery barrel is only doing 1975fps muzzle velocity. That’s a very tame factory loading!

See here:

Kynoch .404 Jeffery

No, historically, Jeffery’s .404 was always intended to impart the mildest felt-recoil of the .400-class cartridges from a rifle of the same size and weight as a .375H&H (24” barrel, about 8.5lbs).

That’s is also why the .404 was almost universally adopted across those decades by various African game departments for use in culling operations and DG “pest” control. Those departments were largely staffed by skinny, underfed native employees who needed to be able to place accurate shots under pressure (if charged) with a capable round that didn’t overwhelm their felt-recoil tolerances. The .404 Jeffery was perfectly suited to that role.

Download g a large bore riffle to hunt dangerous game does not make any sense.
When hunting impala, kudu or blue wildebeest you can use 300gn bullets for sure..

It certainly does if you’re reloading practice rounds to train with …. or if it’s for hunting lesser, non-dangerous species that don’t require a full load (i.e., 2150fps) behind a 400grn bullet to kill humanely. And AA 5344 is an excellent propellant for creating cheap and easy practice ammo.

 

[Nevada Mike]

You have no idea what you’re talking about regarding what constitutes proper .404 Jeffery ballistics.

The .404J with a 400grn bullet, which was the cartridge’s dominant bullet-weight since its inception, was never loaded in factory ammo to Rigby levels (i.e., 2300+fps) until Hornady pumped-up its velocity in the early 2000s when African hunting and the modern loading of the old African cartridges returned to vogue. The 400grn/.404J was always a 2100-2150fps load for decades and it was that original velocity range which made its reputation in Africa - reported incidents of bullet failure due to poor construction notwithstanding - on everything from elephants, rhinos, buffalo, and tigers, down to all the lesser plains game.

In fact, as loaded by Kynoch, their version of the .400grn Jeffery load only just made 2125fps from a 28” barrel. That same load from the much more typical 23” or 24“ Jeffery barrel is only doing 1975fps muzzle velocity. That’s a very tame factory loading!

See here:

Kynoch .404 Jeffery

No, historically, Jeffery’s .404 was always intended to impart the mildest felt-recoil of the .400-class cartridges from a rifle of the same size and weight as a .375H&H (24” barrel, about 8.5lbs).

That’s is also why the .404 was almost universally adopted across those decades by various African game departments for use in culling operations and DG “pest” control. Those departments were largely staffed by skinny, underfed native employees who needed to be able to place accurate shots under pressure (if charged) with a capable round that didn’t overwhelm their felt-recoil tolerances. The .404 Jeffery was perfectly suited to that role.


It certainly does if you’re reloading practice rounds to train with …. or if it’s for hunting lesser, non-dangerous species that don’t require a full load (i.e., 2150fps) behind a 400grn bullet to kill humanely. And AA 5344 is an excellent propellant for creating cheap and easy practice ammo.

I have loaded 404 Jeff to a bit over 2400 fps (on my chrono) out of a 23" PacNor barrel. But I found the sweet spot for accuracy and recoil at 2250 fps, which worked quite well and was 'shootable' in my rifle (weight 10 lbs.).

I think you meant AA 5744, which I used with PC cast lead bullets for practice rounds. These rounds are easy to shoot and print to the same POI as my hunting loads at DG shooting distances.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

You have no idea what you’re talking about regarding what constitutes proper .404 Jeffery ballistics.

The .404J with a 400grn bullet, which was the cartridge’s dominant bullet-weight since its inception, was never loaded in factory ammo to Rigby levels (i.e., 2300+fps) until Hornady pumped-up its velocity in the early 2000s when African hunting and the modern loading of the old African cartridges returned to vogue. The 400grn/.404J was always a 2100-2150fps load for decades and it was that original velocity range which made its reputation in Africa - reported incidents of bullet failure due to poor construction notwithstanding - on everything from elephants, rhinos, buffalo, and tigers, down to all the lesser plains game.

In fact, as loaded by Kynoch, their version of the .400grn Jeffery load only just made 2125fps from a 28” barrel. That same load from the much more typical 23” or 24“ Jeffery barrel is only doing 1975fps muzzle velocity. That’s a very tame factory loading!

See here:

Kynoch .404 Jeffery

No, historically, Jeffery’s .404 was always intended to impart the mildest felt-recoil of the .400-class cartridges from a rifle of the same size and weight as a .375H&H (24” barrel, about 8.5lbs).

That’s is also why the .404 was almost universally adopted across those decades by various African game departments for use in culling operations and DG “pest” control. Those departments were largely staffed by skinny, underfed native employees who needed to be able to place accurate shots under pressure (if charged) with a capable round that didn’t overwhelm their felt-recoil tolerances. The .404 Jeffery was perfectly suited to that role.


It certainly does if you’re reloading practice rounds to train with …. or if it’s for hunting lesser, non-dangerous species that don’t require a full load (i.e., 2150fps) behind a 400grn bullet to kill humanely. And AA 5344 is an excellent propellant for creating cheap and easy practice ammo.

Quoting these historical correct written information on a Google search does not make you the author of this knowledge at all..try to reference recent data and reloading information in the current 2023 era will be more suitable to try and make a valid point, I presume you have a 404 Jeffery that you shoot frequently and hunt with it ???Please provide your reloading data for your 404 Jeffery ??

The examples you refer to is from the early 1900 to 1950 era.....a lot about new generation bullets and powder has changed and developed..you are not in 1900 or 1950 era now, you are in 2023 where technology has developed indestructible bullets , super fast burning and slow burning powder...velocity of a 404 Jeffery with a 400 gn bullet is 2300f/s ....the 2100f/s idea is a long gone idea and practice ...

Practicing with a 404 Jeffery by using lighter bullets does not have any advantage at all..the brass , bullets and powder is still being use and it is still expensive ..

If you are not comfortable shooting a 404 Jeffery full loads 400gn at 2300 f/s then do refrain from shooting this caliber rifle and buy a 9.3 x 62 or lighter caliber. It is a dangerous game rifle ....made to put down dangerous game , do not use it with lighter bullets it does not make sense ...except if you only shoot thin skin game and you want to use 350gn bullets .

There is a reason for having small bore rifle , medium bore rifles , large bore rifles ....since there are small game, medium game and large game then dangerous game ...