1 MOA accuracy less common than you think ?

Hornady has several podcasts on accuracy, measuring accuracy/precision, ans statistically significant group size and its effect on accuracy/extreme spread/standard deviation. If you are a shooter like me, it will shake your perception to the core.

For example. I took a very consistent Savage 12VLP in 223 to the range and shot 20 shots. This rifle has turned in multiple 3 shot groups in the 0.3-0.5” size. Attached are the results

All of these shots “felt good”. There was some left to right wind and some suppressor mirage, but it is a representation of that day at the range and should be close to statistically significant accuracy representation

Bell curve accuracy/hit probability
0.586” =68.3%
1.17”= 95.4%
1.76” =99.7%

IMG_4415.jpeg
 
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Surely for most of us it’s where the first shot lands from a cold gun, off sticks or nestling against a tree. I really don’t recall ever bench rest shooting anything.
FN
 
I've seen quite a few rifles, and quite a few shooters that could do that, but I agree that most people and rifle/ammo that you are likely to see at a range wont come close.

What would really interest me is how well or poorly most hunters and shooters could do from the standing, kneeling, sitting and prone positions. Growing up, this was considered basic Marksmanship skill, but now it all seems lost in favor of bipod's, shooting sticks and benchrested on sandbags.
 
I get it and Hornadys’ videos on 20 shot groups etc. Those points are all valid and appropriate for specific applications but I have never fired 5 shots, one right after the other, while hunting big game. I’ve rarely have ever fired three.
I also don’t shoot beyond 350 ever. The long range stuff is fine for those truly competent at it but it’s not my deal.
I use 3 shot groups and I don’t own a bolt rifle that I can’t regularly shoot 3 shot, one hole groups with and the front row of my safe are Winchester pre 64’s, 54’s, and modern model 70’s. If they I can’t get that out of them after working loads I get rid of them and I have rarely ever sold one.
I have also seen through the years that most shooters really aren’t very good at it as most don’t shoot enough to be good at it.
In the end, I feel the expectations placed on a rifle should be within the purpose it was made for. My hunting rifle doesn’t need to hold sub moa through 5 shots or more because that isn’t how I use it. But I’d happily lay $100 on a 3 shot group every time any day with any of mine.
 
MOA in a big game hunting rifle is not a hindrance, nor is it essential. My personal preference is that my rifle/ammo will put 3 shots within or on 1.5 inches at 100 yards off a bag. But to be honest 2 inches would more than suffice for most hunting scenarios. That accuracy gives me confidence in my gear. Which I believe is essential for good marksmanship.

What I think is more important for a minimum accuracy/ skill with a hunting rifle is that; from the standing/ offhand, unsupported position that they can consistently place 3 shots within a 4” circle at 25 meters.

IMO that’s the minimum standard.
 
Hornady’s point wasn’t 20 consecutive shots. They even advocate for hunting rifles to do 3-5 shot groups at the same POA over time and overlay or plot those impacts.
I realized after re-reading my own post that it might easily be taken in a way I did not intend with the “I get it”. But by that I meant literally I get their intent and the application I believe the same as yourself. I watched their podcasts on this with great interest and they seemed to devote most of their discussion to long range applications with much less time spent on hunting rifles and shorter ranges. I meant to relate simply my opinion on what I want or expect from a rifle I would use for the way I would use it. I don’t have the tech they possess but have produced similar data by overlaying multiple targets one at a time on a blank target and marking through the holes onto the blank target. I’ve actually done this more with aperture sighted rifles than scoped rifles just to verify mostly my repeatability. No offense intended.
 
I have a number of rifles that I know I can beat this standard with. However, I have my own range, shoot at 600 & 800 regularly, and truly great equipment. Interestingly, one of the rifles I know will do it is a custom AR in 6.5 Grendel. It can be expected to shoot 1.5”, 5 shot groups at 300 with boring regularity.

I apologize as I know I have shared this before. This is a 600 yard target. The bull is 1”. The first shot was low right. Slight adjustment to fire the next two. This was shot from a hunting position, prone w bipod and pack under the butt. Wind drift was roughly 2 moa. I’ll take that bet all day long with this rifle.

Image1715999462.963293.jpg
 
I can walk out back to my bench tomorrow morning and shoot 1 MOA 5 shot groups with a .223, 22 Hornet, 3 different .270s, a R8 with .257, .300, or .375 barrels, a 30-06, and a 9.3x64. In fact I would actually wager him his 1000 those rifles would do it. I have at least a dozen more that would be close, but those would be a no risk wager.
 
Hornady has several podcasts on accuracy, measuring accuracy/precision, ans statistically significant group size and its effect on accuracy/extreme spread/standard deviation. If you are a shooter like me, it will shake your perception to the core.

For example. I took a very consistent Savage 12VLP in 223 to the range and shot 20 shots. This rifle has turned in multiple 3 shot groups in the 0.3-0.5” size. Attached are the results

All of these shots “felt good”. There was some left to right wind and some suppressor mirage, but it is a representation of that day at the range and should be close to statistically significant accuracy representation

Bell curve accuracy/hit probability
0.586” =68.3%
1.17”= 95.4%
1.76” =99.7%

View attachment 606437
Group shot conversions @ 100 yd.

3 to 5 shots, multiply group size by 1.28 Example: 1.00" three shot group will be 1.28" if five shots are fired.
3 to 10 x 1.58
3 to 20 x 1.85
5 to 10 x 1.24
5 to 20 x 1.45
 
I get it and Hornadys’ videos on 20 shot groups etc. Those points are all valid and appropriate for specific applications but I have never fired 5 shots, one right after the other, while hunting big game. I’ve rarely have ever fired three.
I also don’t shoot beyond 350 ever. The long range stuff is fine for those truly competent at it but it’s not my deal.
I use 3 shot groups and I don’t own a bolt rifle that I can’t regularly shoot 3 shot, one hole groups with and the front row of my safe are Winchester pre 64’s, 54’s, and modern model 70’s. If they I can’t get that out of them after working loads I get rid of them and I have rarely ever sold one.
I have also seen through the years that most shooters really aren’t very good at it as most don’t shoot enough to be good at it.
In the end, I feel the expectations placed on a rifle should be within the purpose it was made for. My hunting rifle doesn’t need to hold sub moa through 5 shots or more because that isn’t how I use it. But I’d happily lay $100 on a 3 shot group every time any day with any of mine.
It is important to note that the statistics don’t require the shots to be right after each other. In fact, if the shots are fired too close together, heat will introduce another variable. The shots could be fired once a year as far as the statistics care (which of course could introduce environmental variables).

What matters is that there are a sufficient number of shots to get past the expected variability.
 
I can walk out back to my bench tomorrow morning and shoot 1 MOA 5 shot groups with a .223, 22 Hornet, 3 different .270s, a R8 with .257, .300, or .375 barrels, a 30-06, and a 9.3x64. In fact I would actually wager him his 1000 those rifles would do it. I have at least a dozen more that would be close, but those would be a no risk wager.
That is excellent shooting and reflects a lot of practice and some precise rifles. A precise rifle is a lot easier to come by than it used to be.

But the reality is the average knucklehead “shooter” shoots a bunch of targets, gets one 3-shot group under an inch, and thinks his rifle “MOA accurate if I do my part”. Statistics are just not part of most math curricula until college and not required for most majors. I have yet to read a popular gun magazine and see error bars put on their precision claims.
 
As posted previously the majority here are outliers. I've been to our gun club the week before deer seasons and you'd be lucky to get a cold range and a bench. Paper plates are the targets du jour.
 
I do load development with my rifles and trully try to get the best groups I can. Most can get true MOA . Some of my modern/newer rifle I can get better than moa.
The way I do my practice with my hunting rifles is a bit different. But I am blessed to have my range right behind my house.
After load development and zero. I hang a target at the desired distance. Currently I have one hanging at 100yards for my 375HH.
I go to the range right after sun up, typically the best conditions. No wind, good light etc.
I shoot 1 round at the target, cold bore thats been fouled from a previous day. ( I shoot 3-5 foulers) and zeroed .
That one shot will be from a bench, sticks, prone etc depending on the rifle and varies from day to day. so today may be from the bench, tomorrow stick, next day leaning on the gator or sitting and leaning on a post. But I try field positions from a rifle in hunting scenario first shot. I go down and mark and date the shot. take a picture and leave. Come back the next day and shoot one more. I have noticed keeping the same impact from day to day and different positions are extremely hard. But its not hard to keep the shots in the kill zone to a certain distance. I have the ,most difficulty with left and right shots leaning against a post/tree. But I know this and know in the field how far I can go in certain positions.
All that being said. My self like a lot of folks here I am sure have rifle that will take that guys money. Looking at the beginning of the video. I see poor shooting form, Bipods way high etc. He didn't look for the right people, he found the test subjects to obtain the desired out come.
goes back to the old saying . Figures don't lie but liars figure.
 
Shot this yesterday evening, light wind, no mirage, one right after the other. I could see the holes in the scope. Here's a three shot group that turned in to four shot 5.25 inch. This was at 500 meters, 6.5x47L, light bench rifle. If I would have stopped at three, I would have had a .35 moa group instead of a .96 moa group.

38.4_540.jpg
 
This is done every Saturday at the 200 yd range where I practice and compete. Wind can start to bug you at 200 yards and beyond; 100 yards not so much.

Now if the challenge was shooting 5 shots 1 MOA free offhand (OK, even with a shooting coat) then I'd be impressed. I can't do it but I've met people who can.
 
There are few that will walk up cold to an outdoor range with their tack drivers and put the first 5 rounds IN the 1 MOA bull at 100 as shown. I know most everyone on the Internet can but in real life, no, which was portrayed accurately on the video. If we wanted to reach deeper, most of the scopes we use today probably won’t survive the ride from the house to the range without enough shift to put you outside the ring. Ouch.
 
I used to be obsessed by sub-MOA and if a bolt or single shot rifle could not perform as such, it was sent down the road. When I suffered from that obsession, I was fully capable of such performance, shot A LOT, and was OCD at the reloading bench. Our "He Man Woman Hater's Club" had all gone through a "practice wife" and decided a passionate relationship with firearms was safer. My garage had been converted into a gunsmithing/reloading/alcohol paradise. We had multiple reloading presses from Dillon, RCBS, Redding, Forster, Ponsness Warren, a ton of accessories and gadgets, all the tools to build and customize firearms, and a bar stocked with the finest spirits that were on sale at the PX. It was a paradise!

Now days, I am not always capable of sub-MOA even though some of my kit is. Multiple surgeries and my morning liter of coffee habit are not always conducive to 5 round+ MOA. Also, time and experience has proven to me that sub-2MOA is more than good enough for all of my hunting situations. 3 shot sub-MOA is easy enough but 5 shot plus requires a level of dedication and concentration that I do not possess most days. :LOL:

However, pursuit of sub-MOA accuracy is an interesting, (at times frustrating) and fun endeavor!

Safe shooting
 

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