Heym 88B High Demand?

Jager Waffen74 · Sunday at 11:51 AM

SStomcat said:
Haha, I wouldn’t call them issues. I just see them as investments—gotta put the money where the returns make the most sense.

I have lots of investme ts in my happiness...lol

Tex .416 · Sunday at 12:50 PM

Jager Waffen74 said:
I am high bidder on both..... lol I have issues...

fwiw - Gentle reminder to avoid a surprise, they have a 23% buyer’s premium.

Mtn_Infantry · Sunday at 5:31 PM

Garciamarquez1918 said:
I have had a Shikari on order now going on two years. Lead time just got longer possibly due to the debacle with @Tanks' Shikari. Thanks Tanks! Just kidding.

You're basically right, although they do come with basic engraving and the base wood is actually quite nice. But I tend to favor more simple, understated wood. I love the wood on my 404 Rigby PH model and it has no figure at all, just nice straight grain.

I added engraving on the stock oval. They've also now added a "middle" option for standard engraving. It's lovely and I'm sure will help add margin.

I am an OEM in a very different world and its super hard selling stuff when you have lead times as long as they do because you don't know what's going to happen to your costs during that period. We got pretty caught out during covid.

I know you’re joking but lead times aren’t past what was quoted and didn’t go up because of @Tanks Gun they’re beyond what’s being quoted because Rigby didn’t anticipate near the demand they’ve received thus far. Additionally there are Rigby dealers who committed to guns (without specs) for their future clients.

@Hornedfrogbbq earlier this year I took a 1908 built Westley Richards Drop Lock in 450NE 3-1/4” on a Zim Elephant/Leopard hunt in March and again took it into the swamps of Coutada 11 after Buffalo in June. I love the 450NE it’ll probably be the double I never part with but desirability is significantly less than the other big bores. The 450NE previously described is regulated for Woodleighs. Good luck finding many since they’ve been out of production. Ammo and component availability is a major influence on resale pricing and demand.

SBW1975 · Sunday at 5:51 PM

Dude is the gun for sale or just on exhibit on Africa Hunting?

SBW1975 · Sunday at 6:14 PM

I think plenty of Heym rifles will hit the market once the buyers for them are able and willing to pay a price that makes sense for a current owner to part with his or her rifle. Value/Price is completely personal. Look at the watch market during covid, used watches sold for more than new ones. Look at the stock market, stocks are trading at 300 times earnings. Hyperscalers are building data centers and spending what seems like an unlimited supply of money. Crypto and covid brought about a new generation of wealth, data centers are currently doing the same. There are lots more folks buying shit in this industry and price category than in the past.

Adam Stevens · Sunday at 6:18 PM

Dollar inflation also has a hand in all this.

compare most anything to 10-15+ years ago. Trucks. Houses. Old cars. List goes on and on. Our dollar has less and less buying power.

Therefore, doubles have increased. Of course demand is UP, The same dollar to buy one 10 years ago has 50-100% less buying power and doubles values have doubled.

SBW1975 · Sunday at 6:29 PM

Adam Stevens said:
Dollar inflation also has a hand in all this.

compare most anything to 10-15+ years ago. Trucks. Houses. Old cars. List goes on and on. Our dollar has less and less buying power.

Therefore, doubles have increased. Of course demand is UP, The same dollar to buy one 10 years ago has 50-100% less buying power and doubles values have doubled.

I agree in principle but there has never been more buyers for doubles than today. The reverse is true for collectable winchester rifles. Prices are coming down because the number of buyers are not there anymore, and the folks that own them are aging and estates are getting liquidated. Pre 64 94's during covid where all $1000+, now they are trading around 800 on gunbroker.

SStomcat · Sunday at 6:30 PM

Tariff on European goods adds to it

SBW1975 · Sunday at 6:39 PM

SStomcat said:
Tariff on European goods adds to it

I was told by someone that has friends that work for Heym (Germany) that the craftsmen it takes to build these rifles are few and far between, and none of them are looking for a job. I would think it would be a difficult to convince a young person to go into the firearms industry in Europe, especially center fire rifles.

SStomcat · Sunday at 8:48 PM

SBW1975 said:
I was told by someone that has friends that work for Heym (Germany) that the craftsmen it takes to build these rifles are few and far between, and none of them are looking for a job. I would think it would be a difficult to convince a young person to go into the firearms industry in Europe, especially center fire rifles.

Could very well be true. The same applies to many double rifles makers in UK. Recently I was enquiring about the Essencia double rifles was told there is 3 year wait, even the classic Big five is a 1-2 year wait

Kevin Peacocke · Monday at 12:24 AM

I am seeing a possibility for double rifles that to the best of my knowledge only Heym has used to date. There are two parts to manufacturing a double, the first is the machining of the block and components and the second is the finishing. Modern machining can be so good and so accurate that assembly after that process is all it takes to have a perfectly functional double. I argue that done properly it will be more perfect than a hand double of old would be and require virtually no further intervention. I have very closely examined both of the Heym 89b's that I have owned and I believe that is the case.
Woodwork can we know be perfectly machined too, and even finished to satin, as Heym standardly do.
So what if the base offering is just that? No engraving, no 'London' finish, but you now have a very perfect functional plain double. Later on, possibly by after market suppliers one can add engraving or embelishments. You make it progressively custom, or just leave it in it's bare beauty. I very nearly ordered my first Heym 89b in this form, the cost was much less, as was the lead time. The factory added edge engraving for no extra charge.

Hornedfrogbbq · Monday at 6:46 AM

Kevin Peacocke said:
I am seeing a possibility for double rifles that to the best of my knowledge only Heym has used to date. There are two parts to manufacturing a double, the first is the machining of the block and components and the second is the finishing. Modern machining can be so good and so accurate that assembly after that process is all it takes to have a perfectly functional double. I argue that done properly it will be more perfect than a hand double of old would be and require virtually no further intervention. I have very closely examined both of the Heym 89b's that I have owned and I believe that is the case.
Woodwork can we know be perfectly machined too, and even finished to satin, as Heym standardly do.
So what if the base offering is just that? No engraving, no 'London' finish, but you now have a very perfect functional plain double. Later on, possibly by after market suppliers one can add engraving or embelishments. You make it progressively custom, or just leave it in it's bare beauty. I very nearly ordered my first Heym 89b in this form, the cost was much less, as was the lead time. The factory added edge engraving for no extra charge.
View attachment 790487 View attachment 790488 View attachment 790489 View attachment 790490

I think there is a probability above zero that they don't want to impinge in any way on getting you to buy the nicer weapon. I feel like they are a Lexus and don't want to offer a Toyota Camry. Same owner and manufacturing group but see so little demand (although clearly above current production rates) that going down market isn't going to generate more demand. So better to keep the prices up for roughly the same amount of guns? I am guessing.

Today's machining and what can be done with ai in reading the wood(scan a black of wood and have a machine cut out the most stocks, know where and how to get the best bull into a piece etc) is shocking. Kevin there is no doubt in my mind they absolutely can do this today...and I guess the PH model is basically that?

Garciamarquez1918 · Monday at 7:39 AM

Hornedfrogbbq said:
I had heard they weren't quoting any more Shikari's until they get the wait list down? Maybe that was bs.

If you order a gun from any of these cats and wait two years, can they change the pricing on you or are you locked in?

I don't know if they have stopped taking orders.

They have not asked me to pay more so I think the price is locked in. They have offered me a new option which is attractive and priced fairly but which I also think will help them gain back some margin on my sale. But it was truly an option I chose versus an "offer you can't refuse."

In their defense, Econ 101 says if demand far outsrips what you can supply you raise prices and keep raising prices til supply and demand are in balance. I think Rigby honestly want to keep the rifles "afforadable" (in relative terms) so they haven't played that game.

Longrifle · Monday at 8:50 AM

Hornedfrogbbq said:
I posted a couple of 3 weeks ago that i thought the Shakari price point for the US is over $100k and probably closer to $120k. A new Heym is probably $40k - $50k I believe, with similar options. Both are a multi-year wait. If that is the case, I think Heym has the pricing umbrella (WR and H&H are much higher) from Rigby to raise pricing. Used Heyms simply do not trade for $20k any more. I think they'll be $30k in the next year or two.

Given that these guns frequently aren't shot much, there is a lifetime of use plus another in most of these guns if properly cared for.

I have recently been speaking with Jerome Lanoue who leads the Shikari build program. Bottom line, I was looking at $83,300 for standard everything in .500 NE with a 4-5 year delivery.

Essentially, I wanted a near replica of my current 1905 Rigby Class C, which the Shikari is based upon. Rigby wants $16,244 just for the engraving (address, bullet weight, and caliber on the rib and minimal border scroll, like the old days).

Then I spoke with Chris Sells at Heym USA about a similar configuration, which I am still considering. Heym comes in at $38,000 with a 1 ½ -2 yrs delivery. The only reason I have not 'pulled the trigger' on the Heym is because my Rigby is so well balance and perfect for me, I fear I would be disappointed with any other rifle. If that makes any sense.

Longrifle · Monday at 8:59 AM

SStomcat said:
A Heym simply won’t have the finesse, handling, or provenance of a pre-war British double. That’s where the old British guns really stand apart. They may need a little more love and care, but hunting with a piece from that bygone era gives you something back that money simply can’t buy.

So true. The old British double feels alive. Modern machining and steels may be more precise durable but, there is a real "feeling" when hunting with the old Rigby.

Hornedfrogbbq · Monday at 9:10 AM

Longrifle said:
So true. The old British double feels alive. Modern machining and steels may be more precise durable but, there is a real "feeling" when hunting with the old Rigby.

How old still has the "feel" versus more modern manufacturing techniques?

Hornedfrogbbq · Monday at 9:12 AM

mms45 said:
I don’t think an 88 will go that high an 89 yea depending on upgrades

I think $40k is high except for a more custom weapon (more engraving, gold work, highly upgraded stock) but i think $25z28k at SCI and $30k plus for nicer models. $40k is 5 years out I would bet.

I just would think whatever inflation is in this world, these guns will go up more.

SStomcat · Monday at 10:02 AM

For reference a new Heym 89B big bore double at safari outdoors Pretoria SA is listed around 30K USD. Prices there are higher and I understand it is SA. Even if you add import fees 1-1.5K you have an idea of the cost of a new 89B Heym gun.

Hornedfrogbbq · Monday at 10:21 AM

SStomcat said:
For reference a new Heym 89B big bore double at safari outdoors Pretoria SA is listed around 30K USD. Prices there are higher and I understand it is SA. Even if you add import fees 1-1.5K you have an idea of the cost of a new 89B Heym gun.

When talking to Griffin and Howe about doing just this, they said to figure $6k to import a gun from the UK or SA. Still, I bet all in you are talking $35-40k...and i wouldn't absolutely believe you get the VAT refunded but then, i don't really know. But yours is a good point.

SStomcat · Monday at 10:54 AM

Kevin Peacocke said:
I am seeing a possibility for double rifles that to the best of my knowledge only Heym has used to date. There are two parts to manufacturing a double, the first is the machining of the block and components and the second is the finishing. Modern machining can be so good and so accurate that assembly after that process is all it takes to have a perfectly functional double. I argue that done properly it will be more perfect than a hand double of old would be and require virtually no further intervention. I have very closely examined both of the Heym 89b's that I have owned and I believe that is the case.
Woodwork can we know be perfectly machined too, and even finished to satin, as Heym standardly do.
So what if the base offering is just that? No engraving, no 'London' finish, but you now have a very perfect functional plain double. Later on, possibly by after market suppliers one can add engraving or embelishments. You make it progressively custom, or just leave it in it's bare beauty. I very nearly ordered my first Heym 89b in this form, the cost was much less, as was the lead time. The factory added edge engraving for no extra charge.
View attachment 790487 View attachment 790488 View attachment 790489 View attachment 790490

I do see your point. Most DB rifle makers of today use CNC machines in a good way. Milling has come a long way since the days of bygone era where most of the stuff was made by hand. Added to this I have lot of respect to the German engineering prowess which is just tops. Sometimes they do tend to over engineer for sure, but I feel that has got to do with some business strategy.
My Krieghoff internals are made to perfection. I have even taken a high powered magnifying glass to look at the internals and I see perfection. Very similar to a Japanese Katana edge from the Edo period. Not exact but close.

Heym 88B High Demand?

Jager Waffen74

Tex .416

Mtn_Infantry

SBW1975

SBW1975

Adam Stevens

SBW1975

SStomcat

SBW1975

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Kevin Peacocke

Hornedfrogbbq

Garciamarquez1918

Longrifle

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