Small and fast or big and slow?

AckleyHunter said:
In the podcast version Spomer mentions two points. 1. The 120 barnes went through the humerous on the eland. So the fear of bones and steep angles is really overwrought. Bullets do terrible damage. 2. Spomer points out they had no lost animals on this trip. Attributes it to better shooting, everybody had 7mm rifles.

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We Went to Africa Under-Gunned? (Or Did We?) Eps. 501

Podcast Episode · Ron Spomer Outdoors · July 22 · 56m
podcasts.apple.com podcasts.apple.com

As far as the 375 v 7x57, you will have to take it up with Spomer, it was his experience.
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Attached is a picture of a bullet I recovered from a Gemsbok a couple of weeks ago. It blew through the shoulder and leg bones on a quartering towards shot. It did devistating damage. A .338 bullet expanding to .884 and weighed 214 grains while starting at 230 grains. This was a Norma Oryx.

I know the TSX is an awesome bullet and I use them exclusively for buffalo. When I used them for some plains game I found penetration was good as usual, but they didn't create as big of a wound channel as lead core bullets. If meat preservation is your concern then by all means go with the TSX. If I'm trophy hunting meat preservation is pretty low on my priority list.
Screenshot_20260816-164412.png
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AckleyHunter said:
There should be no difference between a cull hunt and a trophy hunt. All shots should be taken with the expectation it will be a lethal shot. The type of hunt should make no difference. I've done 'trophy' hunts in Africa and elsewhere and cull hunts in the US. Every shot I take is done with the utmost respect for the fact I am killing something. I will not take fleeting, running, or ass shots on animals unless they have already been shot once.
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It seems you just don’t want to believe there is a difference. There is. I think most people will choose an appropriate rifle and cartridge for the hunting situation they are likely to encounter.
 
AckleyHunter said:
How much wider is the bull then the cow? That is the test of the bullet, not the weight and height.

The bullet doesn't go through total mass, it goes should to shoulder.
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I’m going to go off on a limb and guess that far heavier bull with a massive neck has a larger front leg bone and shoulder bones to bust through. You should ask a vet though.

To me the whole topic is really tiresome and nothing new. Look up shooting a tiger with a savage 22 hi power over a 100 years ago. It’s sounds mostly like another journalist selling page views.

The time spent wringing hands over thousandths of bore diameter, vs practicing, studying shot placement, or even learning about the game indigenous to the area you’re hunting.
 
Mark458 said:
Attached is a picture of a bullet I recovered from a Gemsbok a couple of weeks ago. It blew through the shoulder and leg bones on a quartering towards shot. It did devistating damage. A .338 bullet expanding to .884 and weighed 214 grains while starting at 230 grains. This was a Norma Oryx.

I know the TSX is an awesome bullet and I use them exclusively for buffalo. When I used them for some plains game I found penetration was good as usual, but they didn't create as big of a wound channel as lead core bullets. If meat preservation is your concern then by all means go with the TSX. If I'm trophy hunting meat preservation is pretty low on my priority list. View attachment 785232View attachment 785233
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This is a picture of a norma oryx, 7mm from a puny 7mm-08, also recovered from a gemsbok. 340 yrds.
20250522_140933.jpg
20250517_164912(1).jpg

What matter is bullet construction and impact velocity. That one was at the end of what I would consider ideal velocity, about 1800 fps.
 
375Fox said:
It seems you just don’t want to believe there is a difference. There is. I think most people will choose an appropriate rifle and cartridge for the hunting situation they are likely to encounter.
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Do you take less then ideal shots, or shots you are not confident will be lethal on cull animals?
 
AckleyHunter said:
Do you take less then ideal shots, or shots you are not confident will be lethal on cull animals?
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No, I’ll have 10 opportunities the next day for a better shot. This seems to be the part you don’t understand of the difference in a trophy hunt vs a cull hunt. If you want to do experiments with smaller cartridges a cull hunt is the perfect place to do it.
 
AckleyHunter said:
This is a picture of a norma oryx, 7mm from a puny 7mm-08, also recovered from a gemsbok. 340 yrds.
View attachment 785300View attachment 785302
What matter is bullet construction and impact velocity. That one was at the end of what I would consider ideal velocity, about 1800 fps.
Click to expand...
I'm going back next year. I'll try my best to take a Gemsbok at 340 yards with my 338 Win Mag with Norma Oryx and we'll see what kind of expansion I get.

Until then, good day and good hunting.
 
Bullet composition & construction are important. It’s probably more important to know the strengths & weaknesses of your choice.

You can shoot steenbok with a .22LR with soft lead bullets or with a .470 nitro with solids. Both work perfectly fine, assuming you can shoot both of them accurately. A .243 with 60 grain hollow points is not a great choice…… but it might be perfect for culling springbok when you’re only taking headshots.

Monolithics are awesome at over 2000 fps, and you don’t need to worry so much about quartering shots through bone. Bonded bullets can do OK a little slower than that, especially if you’re a bit careful about where they go.

Taking a high-percentage shot and placing bullets in the vitals is the biggest part of the equation.
 
My third hunt in Africa was strictly PG. I used the PH’s .308 Win. Took five animals (Barbary Ram, blesbok, 2warthog and an impala), all one shot kills (Barnes TTSX). Of course, I was in a large high-fenced game ranch. No Ele, no great cats, no hippo. There were buff, but only bulls and a chance encounter in that environment was nil.

On a trophy free range hunt like I experienced in Zim (and to a lesser degree in Namibia), I’d feel naked with a .308 (or whatever Mr. Spomer has selected) or hot rod 7mm.

Nothing against what another man uses, I just have decided, for me personally, wherever I hunt for trophies from now on are going to be wild free range hunts, and that means that there will almost certainly be DG about. So, I’m just going to bring enough medicine for un(and)expected encounters. Which means me having in my hands either my .375 H&H, .416 Rigby or my .470 NE.

Just like the animals not caring how small and fast a projectile it was hit with, I don’t think it will either care how large and slow it was hit with.

Let the situation dictate the weapon and load, I guess.
 
375Fox said:
If you want to do experiments with smaller cartridges a cull hunt is the perfect place to do it.
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And when that experiments shows x projectile is appropriate for killing y animal, why would it then not be appropriate for a trophy hunt? In my 30 years of hunting, there has never been a shot opportunity that would have only been ok if I had 'enough gun'. It is all story telling by gun writers. Even 22 cal bullets go through 1/2 inch mild steel. There is no leg bone in the animal kingdom that is more of a challange than steel. Scapulas are very thin and there are very, very few shots angles that are good shots that have to go through a humerous. Even the biggest magnums are a roll of the dice with 'texas heart shots'. If animals are running and you have to take a running shot (which 99% of hunters should never do), you blew the stalk. If you don't have patience to wait for an animal to clear the brush, you are a bad hunter. If you think a quatering animal is suddenly 10 feet thick and bullet proof, you have never cut up an animal or paid attention to anatomy while doing so.

Seems you want to focus on the 1:1,000,000 scenarios. A bad mechanic blames his tools.
 
AckleyHunter said:
And when that experiments shows x projectile is appropriate for killing y animal, why would it then not be appropriate for a trophy hunt? In my 30 years of hunting, there has never been a shot opportunity that would have only been ok if I had 'enough gun'. It is all story telling by gun writers. Even 22 cal bullets go through 1/2 inch mild steel. There is no leg bone in the animal kingdom that is more of a challange than steel. Scapulas are very thin and there are very, very few shots angles that are good shots that have to go through a humerous. Even the biggest magnums are a roll of the dice with 'texas heart shots'. If animals are running and you have to take a running shot (which 99% of hunters should never do), you blew the stalk. If you don't have patience to wait for an animal to clear the brush, you are a bad hunter. If you think a quatering animal is suddenly 10 feet thick and bullet proof, you have never cut up an animal or paid attention to anatomy while doing so.

Seems you want to focus on the 1:1,000,000 scenarios. A bad mechanic blames his tools.
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Africa is a big place. You might understand that one day. The rifle and cartridge I’d take on a cull hunt in eastern cape or Namibia isn’t the rifle and cartridge I’d take hunting in Zimbabwe. Your photo above, gemsbok in open country at 340 yards. You likely had time to wait for perfect shot from a good rest. Other areas in Africa, this may be the best shot you’ll get at 50 yards. I’m not telling my PH I’m not shooting because I wanted to prove smaller cartridges do equally well as larger cartridges with heavier bullets. You might get that one day.
IMG_0792.jpeg
 
Betterinthebush said:
Just like the animals not caring how small and fast a projectile it was hit with, I don’t think it will either care how large and slow it was hit with.
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It really doesn't matter as long as you shoot them through the lungs at a velocity the bullet was designed to upset.

But people like to sell this fantasy that African animals are indomitable and you need a 375 minimum to kill even springbok. People go to Africa with big magnums that they shot like garbage because they kick the fillings out of their teeth. They don't practice because recoil is awful and rounds are $10-20 each.

The enitre point of the Spomer article is that mild recoiling 7mm rifles are more than adequate to hunt PG. Even quatering shots. Even through 'tough' bone. Even on 1200 lb eland. And they all had a better experience because nobody had to pay a trophy fee for a lost animal. Because they all made good shots with bullets that made big wounds. AND NOBODY HAD TO PASS ON 10 ANIMALS WAITING FOR THE 'PERFECT SHOT' BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT USING ENOUGH GUN.
 
375Fox said:
You likely had time to wait for perfect shot from a good rest. Other areas in Africa, this may be the best shot you’ll get at 50 yards. I’m not telling my PH I’m not shooting because I wanted to prove smaller cartridges do equally well as larger cartridges with heavier bullets. You might get that one day.
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Actually, it was run and gun because we bumped that oryx out of brush like in your picture. Because we blew the stalk.

Are you arguing that being closer makes smaller cartridges less effective?

Or do you believe a 375 is magic and can't be deflected by brush?

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Should You Shoot an Animal Through the Brush?

Most hunters will eventually have to make this decision: Should you fire a bullet through brush at a game animal? Considering how much energy a bullet is carrying, it doesn’t seem like a few twigs and leaves should impact its trajectory. But don’t be so sure. In a recent episode of MeatEater...
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AckleyHunter said:
It really doesn't matter as long as you shoot them through the lungs at a velocity the bullet was designed to upset.

But people like to sell this fantasy that African animals are indomitable and you need a 375 minimum to kill even springbok. People go to Africa with big magnums that they shot like garbage because they kick the fillings out of their teeth. They don't practice because recoil is awful and rounds are $10-20 each.

The enitre point of the Spomer article is that mild recoiling 7mm rifles are more than adequate to hunt PG. Even quatering shots. Even through 'tough' bone. Even on 1200 lb eland. And they all had a better experience because nobody had to pay a trophy fee for a lost animal. Because they all made good shots with bullets that made big wounds. AND NOBODY HAD TO PASS ON 10 ANIMALS WAITING FOR THE 'PERFECT SHOT' BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT USING ENOUGH GUN.
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I think you need to go hunting in Africa some more. You’ve invented a lot of ideas.
 
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