Small and fast or big and slow?

[375Fox]

People shoot 1000'sof mountian lions out of pine trees with 223s and hanguns. You don't need a 375

Mountain lions don’t routinely maul their hunters. You’re failing to recognize a different hunting situation again.

 

[Betterinthebush]

People shoot 1000'sof mountian lions out of pine trees with 223s and hanguns. You don't need a 375

You can’t be serious.

 

[AckleyHunter]

So far you are the only one to suggest 120 gr 7mm can’t kill an eland or you need a 375 to kill a springbok.

Your reading comprehension is poor.

 

[AckleyHunter]

You can’t be serious.

See, this the the dumshit I am talking about.

 

[AckleyHunter]

Mountain lions don’t routinely maul their hunters. You’re failing to recognize a different hunting situation again.

Uninformed bullshit.

List of fatal cougar attacks in North America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, you assume the 375 is kills better, without evidence. Just fudd lore.

 

[Fordy]

Gday I got a nudge from a mate on this thread & really I don’t know what to say without offending some

So let’s go this way & look @ the facts as we read the publication from Ron spoomer that was linked

So on my reading the link , I was hmmm this doesn’t add up so I went & got my notes on the 120 ttsx &132hht which were both shot on numbers approaching 1000 critters so a little bit of insight into the abilities of these bullets I have well imo of course which the killing efficiency of them becomes clearer as we increase penetration lengths , the need to secure the critter quickly not just dead becomes more critical on location one is hunting in

Yes that was my first part of somethings not right here

The second one was a roan is the 3rd biggest antelope hmmm surely I’m not that dumb ????
My top three are the lord derby ,common eland & bongo then throw in the greater kudu that I think pips the roan but I could be mistaken on that idk ‍

Now let’s get to my bread & butter terminals & the 3rd part of somethings not right :
The eland estimated @1200lbs & no mention of the one Ron took so we assume it’s less & more on that in a minute but really it’s irrelevant as the difference between that & a extra 800 of pounds as 2000 lbs was the understanding I’ve got on a big bull well that’s what mine have been estimated @ so I’m going off that which this is not a little bit it’s from the hide to the amount of meat bone density & overall width of what a good bull has now start adding even slight angles on a eland & dosent take a lot to get a extra foot penetration length let alone 2 plus the added resistances . So the ttsx eland we don’t know where the pill ended up but I’d say not the hide as every other one that made it to the hide or exited was talked of so a fair bet to make the assumption that the ttsx didn’t exit or was too the offside hide & most likely imo also based of my numbers the pills were in the offside leg meat
& based off a pretty substantial number of recovered shanks of various calibres in hammers the recovered shank we see in that publication had most likely tumbled ( turned I’m not sure as not enough data given but its one that occurs on a less base than tumble but both still a concern as eventually you’ll get a bad result) & the shank making it to the offside hide & tumbling towards the end of the penertration path gives me a indication that that eland was most likely in the 800/900 lb range

Now to the forth part :
The red hartebeest “pill passed just under heart “ so just lucky imo that it hit the leg & artery in that general area

The fifth:
A high shoulder shot & dead in tracks gives me the impression of a cns shot although different placement than Ron’s red hartebeest the same thing ron stated if that occurred “any bullet would have worked “ while I disagree with that on especially the gemsbok a cns shot dosent give us a lot of indication of a projectiles full capabilities unless it’s a true solid & straight line penertration length are the requirements but another day on those lol

So onto the sixth : steenbuck & no vital pics again so what actually occurred ??
Now I do believe the ttsx @ that speed it would’ve opened up on this size critter as I test for these types of things so a tick on this one

Seventh one blue wildebeest:
Go back to the forth & most likely points too a cns so once again limited data can be obtained from these shots , yet lost one with a 375 hmm guessing that was a hornady dgx bonded lol

Eighth one was Ron’s oryx & this sounds good so a tick on this one

Ninth one
Zebra no mention of either cns / bangflop or a run of x amount of distance ??
So all we know is from neck into body hmm what part of the body
So verdict is somewhat unknown imo yes dead but surely we are passed just a dead critter stage???

Tenth one : duiker was a cns again so no useful data once again imo

The eleventh ones are the fallow deer
1st one “ONE INCH TOO LOW “ hmm tells one how little width the wound channel is which I can confirm & one that @ those impacts & deer the permanent wound channel of that pill is not the base of a coke can wound channel pill & why a bullet that produces a wider permanent wound channel has more insurance built into it & where the argument of precision starts to fall apart as in the field especially if one’s off sticks or been walking all day , maybe a little lack of water or hungry etc we are not fully capable of what we can off the bench
Reality is no one is as good in the field on a consistent base compared to the bench & placement goes off a bit now & then so insurance is welcomed imo

Finally got to the last one
& the springbok , once again a pill with very little insurance in its ability compared to other offerings that give more insurance

So my conclusion I know better than too listen too this type of stuff & take it as gospel regardless of Ron’s status or his following as it’s always better to examine & break things down

Now we don’t have all the facts totally agree but once again I’ve got enough data to see a pattern on those 2 bullets & why yes they will kill that’s for sure the big issue I have is the reality of hunting in some places if one goes off the premises that all will be fine as it worked in this publication

I’ll say keep shooting & someone will understand that they were actually handicapping themselves & apart from being expensive that’s not fair to the critter more importantly to me imo of course

Now to give a little context I’ve taken buff with many a light & fast pill over 4k fps impacts well not as fast as I’ve taken deer lthose 5k plus lol but as much as I loved them speeds there are more sensible ones & better suited bullets

So with the theme of the thread I’m neither a small & fast or a big & slow guy

I’m a most appropriate for the potentially worst case biggest critter worst angle that may turn up
Which I call covering bases

Cheers

 

[AckleyHunter]

As the self appointed representative of the impoverished international hunter, here is a tid bit of interesting reference material…..


Momentum, not energy — and specifically the Taylor Knock-Out (TKO) formula that grew out of it.


Foot-pounds of energy is ½mv², so it rewards velocity heavily and diameter not at all — a 200gr .270 at 3000 fps and a 500gr .458 at 2100 fps can show similar energy numbers on paper, but they behave completely differently on game.

Momentum (mv) scales linearly with velocity instead of by the square, so it doesn’t overweight fast small bores the way energy does. John “Pondoro” Taylor took that further with his TKO formula:

TKO = (bullet weight in grains × velocity in fps × bullet diameter in inches) / 7000

Adding diameter directly into the formula is the key move — it’s an explicit acknowledgment that a wider meplat/frontal area crushes more tissue and transfers energy over a larger area, which correlates better with the “knock ’em flat” effect big-bore hunters actually observe, especially on dangerous game where you want disruption and a straight-line path through heavy bone and muscle rather than fragmentation.





The honest caveat: TKO isn’t a rigorous physics model of killing power — it’s an empirical fudge factor Taylor built from field experience in Africa, and it has known weaknesses (it doesn’t account for bullet construction, expansion, or penetration depth). But the underlying insight — that pure kinetic energy undersells what a big, heavy, slow bullet does compared to a small fast one — is exactly why the .458 Win Mag crowd and double-rifle guys don’t put much stock in foot-pounds as the final word. Sectional density and momentum are doing more of the real work for penetration than energy is.

How did I miss this fuddery.

This is what your meplat contributes to energy:

 

[375Fox]

Uninformed bullshit.

List of fatal cougar attacks in North America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, you assume the 375 is kills better, without evidence. Just fudd lore.

I’m finding it difficult to believe you really are this dumb that you can’t see a difference in hunting mountain lions or hunting leopards.

 

[Betterinthebush]

Uninformed bullshit.

List of fatal cougar attacks in North America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, you assume the 375 is kills better, without evidence. Just fudd lore.

See, this the the dumshit I am talking about.

I offered evidence and clarified my position with pictures. Not conjecture.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury I submit for your consideration the prosecution’s arguments are purely anecdotal and argumentative and has submitted no evidence in support of his argument.

 

[ARHinAK]

They used small bullets in that they didn’t weigh much but still .284 caliber.
Barnes bullets typically expand to 1.7 x caliber and usually shoot straight through stuff. (As apparent in the article)
If that’s not your thing then it’s not your thing.
Pretty simple really.

 

[pilar]

Uhgg this debate never ends they try to used small cal in inappropriate ways and it’s not pretty then come back and say “ look at this it worked “ but it’s very ugly IMHO
OP “Good luck out there; you're going to need it.”

 

[Muskox]

For the past 10 years I had the philosophy that the best was what I used to cal a 90% gun.

Caliber between .30 and .400. bullet weight over 180 grains and gaining as you went up in diameter. 2500 FPS was good.

Lots of cartridges in that range 30-06, 9.3x62, 400 Whelen, 35 Whelan, 358 Norma, 338 any of them, 375, 416, lots of choices.

Sub 200 yards shot.

Any game on the planet except elephants, hippo and rhino.

I have killed a lot of animals in the past 10 years.

With a lot of smaller cartridges like the 25-06, 6.5 CM, 6.5 Swede, 257 Weatherby and the 270 and 7mm mags.

Not saying I was wrong, but a fast bullet in the vitals kills better than a super bullet out of a big boomer not in the vitals.

I no longer thing in terms of adequate by cartridge or caliber.

I think about impact speed and shot placement.

 

[AckleyHunter]

I offered evidence and clarified my position with pictures. Not conjecture.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury I submit for your consideration the prosecution’s arguments are purely anecdotal and argumentative and has submitted no evidence in support of his argument.

Yes, you provided a single anectode. You provided no evidence you needed a 375. You provided no evidence that another caliber would or would not have worked. You showed no pictures of wound channel or shot placement. You said I did it once and it worked for me, this is the only way.

And I quote: I don’t believe a .7mm or less could have plowed through that crap and done what the .375 can do time after time without worry.

Your beliefs are not evidence. You guys are really bad at understanding the meaning of words.

 

[375Fox]

Not saying I was wrong, but a fast bullet in the vitals kills better than a super bullet out of a big boomer not in the vitals.

I don’t think anyone would argue this, but there seems to be a new narrative that hunters can’t shoot larger cartridges accurately. Now apparently 30 caliber cartridges fall into the too much recoil category? Where’s it going to stop? The fundamentals of a small cartridge and big cartridge are the same. Aim and Squeeze the trigger. A flinching problem is the individual. The average shot in Africa is going to be something 75 to 200 yards off sticks. It falls into most hunters capabilities with an appropriate cartridge.

 

[AckleyHunter]

Uhgg this debate never ends they try to used small cal in inappropriate ways and it’s not pretty then come back and say “ look at this it worked “ but it’s very ugly IMHO
OP “Good luck out there; you're going to need it.”

That is evidence it works. There are dozens of videos with similar results using big bores on giraffes. They have large volumes and take a while to bleed out.

Do a study of videos. Record time of impact to death, number of shots. Compile data. You will find the answer if there is something better or worse. But that video is 100% postive conformation that a 6mm can kill a giraffe.

 

[AckleyHunter]

I’m finding it difficult to believe you really are this dumb that you can’t see a difference in hunting mountain lions or hunting leopards.

1. The post was about plains game, you moved the goal post to dangerous game becuase you couldn't defend your nonsense.
2. The anatomy of leopards an mountian lion is very similar. It is inconceivable you have to use a different bullet/caliber to kill one and not the other.
3. Most leopard attacks come from wounded animals. Wounded with big bores that have little shock, narrow wound channels, and poor shot placement because nobody wants to shoot upward with a big bore rifle. A rifle you didn't need but chose because people like you say 'use enough gun'.
4. Undeniable fact mountin lions attack people.

 

[AckleyHunter]

I offered evidence and clarified my position with pictures. Not conjecture.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury I submit for your consideration the prosecution’s arguments are purely anecdotal and argumentative and has submitted no evidence in support of his argument.

Let me break it down so you guys understand.

Claim: I need a 375 to shoot through brush. I believe a smaller caliber would not have made it
Evidence: picture of a cat in a tree.

Counterclaim: I am sure a 375 will work, but you don't need a 375 to get through the brush. A 223 will work.
Evidence: picture of a cat in a tree about to be shot with a 223.

Further evidence: giant wound caused by 223 with a fmj:

 

[DaleGribble82]

I’m generally of the mind “speed kills” my go to rifle in NA is a 257Wby pushing 100gr TTSX’s at over 3800fps. It’s proven devastating on everything up to and including elk. However when I draw a Limited Entry, or Once in A Lifetime Bull Elk Tag I reach for the 300WM.

Logic being; On a trophy hunt I want something I don’t need to worry about sending through brush. Something that I can take a shot at any angle with. Something where if I need to take a less than ideal shot on a fleeting opportunity I can. I might look over 100+ other “shooters” looking for that one giant. I might only get one crack at that bull or buck. For me the issue with small and fast in this scenario is they easily deflect. Now if I was hunting somewhere wide open that’s a different story but all of the OiL elk tags I’ve drawn have been in thick rough country so I step up.

@375Fox is making a similar point. A game farm in South Africa or Namibia and is culling Eland is vastly different than chasing them in parts of wild Africa. I’ve paired my 275 Rigby shooting 140gr Accubonds with my 375H&H before. If we’re getting off the truck to track a bull eland or we saw one and are going to make a stalk I’m not grabbing the 275, I’m grabbing the 375. I can take some shots I couldn’t with the 275 and push some limits. Now if I’m stalking a Sable in Zambia with my 275 in hand and a huge Livingston Eland presented itself and I had a good clean shot I’d take it but I know I can’t push its limits like I can with the 375 and put a shot through a wall of sticks, branches, grass and leaves. I’m definitely not bringing a 7mm when going after a LDE in Cameroon or CAR. Didn’t take the 275 to Mozambique, and typically favor the 375 on every trip to Zimbabwe for the same reason.

I always look forward to your intelligent, experience driven comments. Thanks for another one.

 

[Betterinthebush]

1. The post was about plains game, you moved the goal post to dangerous game becuase you couldn't defend your nonsense.

Nobody moved the goalpost. I tried to gently explain when, where and why a DG cartridge should be used in Africa.

2. The anatomy of leopards an mountian lion is very similar. It is inconceivable you have to use a different bullet/caliber to kill one and not the other.

This comment is where your lack of experience in hunting anything in Africa outside of a game ranch really shows.

3. Most leopard attacks come from wounded animals. Wounded with big bores that have little shock, narrow wound channels, and poor shot placement because nobody wants to shoot upward with a big bore rifle. A rifle you didn't need but chose because people like you say 'use enough gun'.

No. ALL leopard attacks are a result of wounding a cat and poor shot placement. It’s already evident you simply can’t listen to reason as to why a hunter is carrying a large bore rifle in the first place while hunting antelope, or cats, or (I wonder) anything else for that matter. Never mind the fact that in most countries that allow leopard hunting a .375 is the legal minimum size caliber.

4. Undeniable fact mountin lions attack people.

Who ever said they don’t? I certainly didn’t. I’ve treed and shot mountain lions. Sorry, but it’s not the same as shooting a leopard.

Stay in the sprinklers. You’re out of your depth comparing leopard to mountain lion.

 

[pilar]

1. The post was about plains game, you moved the goal post to dangerous game becuase you couldn't defend your nonsense.
2. The anatomy of leopards an mountian lion is very similar. It is inconceivable you have to use a different bullet/caliber to kill one and not the other.
3. Most leopard attacks come from wounded animals. Wounded with big bores that have little shock, narrow wound channels, and poor shot placement because nobody wants to shoot upward with a big bore rifle. A rifle you didn't need but chose because people like you say 'use enough gun'.
4. Undeniable fact mountin lions attack people.

I’m definitely not going to disagree with #2 a deer rifle is probably sufficient
But #4 ML vs a leopard attack is completely comical In a apples to apples comparison
“”
Mountain Lion Attacks

• • Frequency: Roughly 4 to 6 total attacks per year in the United States and Canada combined.
  • Fatalities: Extremely rare, averaging roughly 0.18 deaths per year (about 29 total recorded fatalities in North America since 1868).
  • Leopard Attacks
    
    • • Frequency: Dozens to hundreds of recorded incidents per year globally.
      • Fatalities: Significantly higher than mountain lion numbers; regional studies note dozens of human deaths annually “