Small and fast or big and slow?

[AckleyHunter]

I hope you used an appropriate cartridge to kill that horse.

 

[Lance Hopper]

my one and only Eland was a very large old mature bull, 1800 pounds or so. I shot him in the throat at 125 yards with a 416 Rigby, 400 grain Barnes TSX, going 2400 ft./s. The bull ran 125 yards and fell over dead. The bullet was recovered in his liver. By all accounts, he took every foot pound of energy that rifle had to offer right through the center of the boiler room. If someone didn’t know what I was shooting, and merely observing, they might’ve thought I was shooting an underpowered cartridge.I think all this debate is moot. As most bullet diameter, velocity debates are. Put a good bullet in a good spot and kill your animal.

 

[slam8031]

Well designed bullets at appropriate velocities placed in vital tissue kill animals. Poorly placed bullets in the wrong place produce problems. My daughters used a .243 with Barnes TTSX for one shot kills on zebra, wildebeest (she executed a crappy shot followed by a perfect shot), and two impala in late June 2026. One killed a very sick Cape buffalo with a shot between the eyes with the same .243 from 60 yards out (mercy killing not hunting). I am not suggesting that I would hunt a Cape buffalo with a .243. But I am telling you that it finished one with a properly placed shot into the brain.

It is quite possible that two truths--use enough gun for the task, and bullet selection with bullet placement produce great results--can both be true...

 

[TheRookie]

Ron Spomer goes to Africa to put small bullets in big animals.

Terminal Performance With Lightweight .284” Bullets in Africa — Ron Spomer Outdoors

The general consensus among hunters is that African game -- everyday antelope species as well as the bigger stuff -- is tougher than North American game and requires heavier, “harder hitting” cartridges and bullets. Think 300 magnums, 338 Win. Mag., 375 H&H Magnum, and larger. By the same

www.ronspomeroutdoors.com

As the self appointed representative of the impoverished international hunter, here is a tid bit of interesting reference material…..


Momentum, not energy — and specifically the Taylor Knock-Out (TKO) formula that grew out of it.


Foot-pounds of energy is ½mv², so it rewards velocity heavily and diameter not at all — a 200gr .270 at 3000 fps and a 500gr .458 at 2100 fps can show similar energy numbers on paper, but they behave completely differently on game.

Momentum (mv) scales linearly with velocity instead of by the square, so it doesn’t overweight fast small bores the way energy does. John “Pondoro” Taylor took that further with his TKO formula:

TKO = (bullet weight in grains × velocity in fps × bullet diameter in inches) / 7000

Adding diameter directly into the formula is the key move — it’s an explicit acknowledgment that a wider meplat/frontal area crushes more tissue and transfers energy over a larger area, which correlates better with the “knock ’em flat” effect big-bore hunters actually observe, especially on dangerous game where you want disruption and a straight-line path through heavy bone and muscle rather than fragmentation.





The honest caveat: TKO isn’t a rigorous physics model of killing power — it’s an empirical fudge factor Taylor built from field experience in Africa, and it has known weaknesses (it doesn’t account for bullet construction, expansion, or penetration depth). But the underlying insight — that pure kinetic energy undersells what a big, heavy, slow bullet does compared to a small fast one — is exactly why the .458 Win Mag crowd and double-rifle guys don’t put much stock in foot-pounds as the final word. Sectional density and momentum are doing more of the real work for penetration than energy is.

 

[Flbt]

Here in the states on deer and hog I think small at over 3000fps kills all right
And if your going slow then big heavy bullets work well.

I have not tried to kill any thing in Africa to know how tuff they are.
But if I was hunting there. I think I would want something on the larger size. A good 35 or 338 seams like a good starting point.

Not so much for what you are hunting. But for what might decide it wants you.

Kinda like the reason I cc I am not looking for any problems. But for what might come looking.
And yea I understand that’s kinda what the ph is for.
But I still see a reason to be self sufficient

I could be completely wrong but that my idea at least

 

[pilar]

Bigger and faster I will bet dollars to donuts that my 250gr tsx .375 @ 2900 fps +
Trumps a 7x57 140gr ttsx @ 2700-2800 fps on any hunt be it over water and salt cull
Or walking around in the Jess
I’m sure the OP is a small caliber Troll guy as a vast majority of his post are advocating the small side of the fence.

 

[Wyit76]

I have always found these arguments comical from a historical point of view. Look back through history and you will see that since the introduction of firearms we have been having similar arguments. Hell I would even wager it is a large part of what keeps hunting and shooting alive!

Through history there has always been a crowd focused on what is easier to shoot that still get the job done and a crowd focused on this has what always worked so why change it. I may not agree with it at all times but historically the crowd leaning towards the lighter and smaller side has won out! This has proven itself over and over again from the musket to the centerfire cartridge of today. Even the 270win widly seen as an excellent all around cartridge was once laughed at in the same realm many see the 6.5cm and other smaller cartridges. If it weren't for the efforts of Jack O'Connor, also a well known fan of the 7x57, and a few other outdoor writers a lot of people's favorite 100+ year old cartridge wouldn't be around! Technology changes throughout the years making many things that sounded ridiculous 50 years ago absolutely exceptional now.

 

[steve white]

Well, I think we know what SHE would prefer....after all, the title doesn't mention bullets...lol

 

[mark-hunter]

It seems you just don’t want to believe there is a difference. There is. I think most people will choose an appropriate rifle and cartridge for the hunting situation they are likely to encounter.

I am in full agreement with you @375Fox

Culling is not trophy hunt.
You spend days tracking one animal, and when a chance appears for that one animal in possibly unfavorable position, quartering under angle, in the bush, on the last day of hunt, your gun, caliber, bullet better make the best possible effect.

In the situation in the bush, light fast bullet can easily be diverted by hitting the branch, or patch of grass.

Culling is different.
They were culling buffalo, by driving them to narrow area, and shooting them from a tree into the head with 7.62 Nato FMJ.
But it is not hunting trophy buffalo, tracking for days and looking for 42, 45 inches or more.

Similar is meat hunt, with head shots.
For majority of plains game, 223 or 243 is sufficient.
But, in trophy hunt, you dont shoot head.

I think that those who miss the two different concepts, have not much experience in Africa.

Finally, there is a price.
Wound the animal, draw the blood, draw the money.

Culling is one price, trophy hunt another price.

Those who think fast light bullet is good enough, may soon discover, that their money is also good enough, when trophy blood is spilled and animal lost.

In the modern day and age, with so many options for guns, bullets, calibers and cartridges, going under gunned to Africa, is nothing more but exhibitionism
No excuse.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I’m generally of the mind “speed kills” my go to rifle in NA is a 257Wby pushing 100gr TTSX’s at over 3800fps. It’s proven devastating on everything up to and including elk. However when I draw a Limited Entry, or Once in A Lifetime Bull Elk Tag I reach for the 300WM.

Logic being; On a trophy hunt I want something I don’t need to worry about sending through brush. Something that I can take a shot at any angle with. Something where if I need to take a less than ideal shot on a fleeting opportunity I can. I might look over 100+ other “shooters” looking for that one giant. I might only get one crack at that bull or buck. For me the issue with small and fast in this scenario is they easily deflect. Now if I was hunting somewhere wide open that’s a different story but all of the OiL elk tags I’ve drawn have been in thick rough country so I step up.

@375Fox is making a similar point. A game farm in South Africa or Namibia and is culling Eland is vastly different than chasing them in parts of wild Africa. I’ve paired my 275 Rigby shooting 140gr Accubonds with my 375H&H before. If we’re getting off the truck to track a bull eland or we saw one and are going to make a stalk I’m not grabbing the 275, I’m grabbing the 375. I can take some shots I couldn’t with the 275 and push some limits. Now if I’m stalking a Sable in Zambia with my 275 in hand and a huge Livingston Eland presented itself and I had a good clean shot I’d take it but I know I can’t push its limits like I can with the 375 and put a shot through a wall of sticks, branches, grass and leaves. I’m definitely not bringing a 7mm when going after a LDE in Cameroon or CAR. Didn’t take the 275 to Mozambique, and typically favor the 375 on every trip to Zimbabwe for the same reason.

 

[Jon Glajchen]

Ron Spomer goes to Africa to put small bullets in big animals.

Terminal Performance With Lightweight .284” Bullets in Africa — Ron Spomer Outdoors

The general consensus among hunters is that African game -- everyday antelope species as well as the bigger stuff -- is tougher than North American game and requires heavier, “harder hitting” cartridges and bullets. Think 300 magnums, 338 Win. Mag., 375 H&H Magnum, and larger. By the same

www.ronspomeroutdoors.com

Rather you than me. My experience points to using bigger heavier projectiles when targeting and hunting Eland.

 

[AckleyHunter]

I’m sure the OP is a small caliber Troll guy as a vast majority of his post are advocating the small side of the fence.

No, I am trying to dispell the bad advice given by people on this forum for first time hunters to Africa. Advice that is little more than fantasy from gun writers or grandpa's old family lore from 100 years ago.

I put out evidence and pictures that debunk the ideas like bullets won't go through bone, 1000lb animals are somehow 3 feet wide. That bigger diameter bullets make bigger diameter wounds. Then ask people to defend their opinion in the face of evidence.

They can't and make up some new metric to keep believing they are right. Or most of the time reply with a meaningless adage like 'use enough gun'. This time, it is 'You Need A Brush Gun!!!' There is not such thing. Any bullet, even a 50 bmg, can be deflected by tiny twigs. And I posted evidence supporting that.

So I lay out all their points into a a summary, which looks really dumb when you see it spelled out, and usually get something like this:

I think you need to go hunting in Africa some more. You’ve invented a lot of ideas.

Then a novice comes along and reads 375fox's post, and others, and thinks I need a big magnum. I can shoot animals at any angle even in thick brush. Espousing the same ideas I somehow invented by collating into a single paragraph.

But if I was hunting there. I think I would want something on the larger size. A good 35 or 338 seams like a good starting point.

Every American going to Africa to hunt plains game will be better served taking their deer rifle, whether that is a 243 or 300 win mag. Something they have experience shooting and are familiar with. Bullet construction and impact velocity is what kills animals, not headstamps. A guy with 5 rounds through a 375 H&H shooting at a $5000 animal is a recipe for disaster.

But many of you get it, even if you are unwilling to let go of the mythos of hunting Africa created by gun writers.

The time spent wringing hands over thousandths of bore diameter, vs practicing, studying shot placement, or even learning about the game indigenous to the area you’re hunting.

The whole point of the Spomer article was to show 7mm rifles are very capable of killing the biggest plains game animals. And shooting lighter recoiling rifles resulted in better shot placement, quick kills, and no lost game. Making for a better experience for those going to Africa. But if you want to use a 416 rigby because that is what Harry Selby used, go ahead. Just be prepaired to pay trophy fees for wounded animals.

 

[uplander01]

Spomer is a great salesman, especially when he is selling something that will pay for his next hunt.

I think the entire discussion on caliber and bullet weight is overrated, we all know that modern bullets and stated velocities in any 7, 30, 33 will kill plains game. It's the big stuff that require specialty equipment, or if you're walking around where there are buffalo, elephant, lions, etc, why the hell would you want a 7-08 in your hands? Hence the debate on 'Wild Country", vs a ranch hunt where there is essentially no potential danger at all.

 

[Betterinthebush]

But many of you get it, even if you are unwilling to let go of the mythos of hunting Africa created by gun writers.

No offense, but isn’t that what Ron is? A gun writer?

 

[AckleyHunter]

No offense, but isn’t that what Ron is? A gun writer?

Exactly. And you you go through his volume of work you will see him espouse all the same old tropes.

I just posted his recent experience because it was well supported by evidence and not lore. But he goes into lore with his, 'the 7x57 worked better then a 375 on wildebeest' bit. N of 1.

Big guns, little guns, arrows, spears, pointy rocks tied to sticks all work.

But when it comes to guns 'better' is subjective and people lead with opinions and feels and not facts. If the animal is dead, and I mean dead and dead quickly, there is no 'better' option. There is no more deader.

Then they make up stuff like a 375 will go through brush. Or if you only get one shot on a trophy hunt. Then never explain why a 375 would work on that one shot and not a 7x57. You ask, will you take a non-ideal shot with the 375 or do you think there is a proper shot that only the 375 will kill the animal and not the 7x57.

They deflect, the don't want to admit to taking unethical shots, which probably won't be fatal, then bloviate that animals are somehow too big to be shot with a smaller bullet if they are trophy animal rather then cull animals. Provide no facts, no evidence, just unsubstantiated opinions.

 

[Betterinthebush]

They deflect, the don't want to admit to taking unethical shots, which probably won't be fatal, then bloviate that animals are somehow too big to be shot with a smaller bullet if they are trophy animal rather then cull animals. Provide no facts, no evidence, just unsubstantiated opinions.

Aren’t documented and proven results facts?

This leopard was taken with a .375 H&H. He was treed in heavy cover. The shot taken may (by some standards) be considered unethical. But it’s the only shot that could be taken.

I’m glad I had the .375 and TBBC’s to go through the junk and still hit accurately where I wanted the projectile to land and perform as expected. I don’t believe a .7mm or less could have plowed through that crap and done what the .375 can do time after time without worry.

 

[318AE]

It seems AH used to be different. I come here to learn, be entertained as times, and hopefully contribute.

It seems this post is just argumentative; it’s a “debate” where the only facts you present are not your own experience, but a re-post from a gun writer, which obviously has his own incentives. That article is turn based on a single hunt to a game farm for cull animals, and includes a hartebeest shot in the leg and tracked for half a mile. The “facts” are from a sample size that is inconsequential.

There was another thread here that was a “bullet performance data base”, showing pictures of recovered bullets, retained weight, distance, shot placement, animal, and ultimate effect. It’s a far, far larger sample (albeit likely biased) and you can draw your own conclusions. Have you posted your first hand results there to contribute to the “facts”? That would be constructive.

I know your positioning this thread as an aid to the would be first time Africa hunter. The hunters with tremendous first hand experience to share have left.

 

[375Fox]

No, I am trying to dispell the bad advice given by people on this forum for first time hunters to Africa. Advice that is little more than fantasy from gun writers or grandpa's old family lore from 100 years ago.

I put out evidence and pictures that debunk the ideas like bullets won't go through bone, 1000lb animals are somehow 3 feet wide. That bigger diameter bullets make bigger diameter wounds. Then ask people to defend their opinion in the face of evidence.

They can't and make up some new metric to keep believing they are right. Or most of the time reply with a meaningless adage like 'use enough gun'. This time, it is 'You Need A Brush Gun!!!' There is not such thing. Any bullet, even a 50 bmg, can be deflected by tiny twigs. And I posted evidence supporting that.

So I lay out all their points into a a summary, which looks really dumb when you see it spelled out, and usually get something like this:

Then a novice comes along and reads 375fox's post, and others, and thinks I need a big magnum. I can shoot animals at any angle even in thick brush. Espousing the same ideas I somehow invented by collating into a single paragraph.

Every American going to Africa to hunt plains game will be better served taking their deer rifle, whether that is a 243 or 300 win mag. Something they have experience shooting and are familiar with. Bullet construction and impact velocity is what kills animals, not headstamps. A guy with 5 rounds through a 375 H&H shooting at a $5000 animal is a recipe for disaster.

But many of you get it, even if you are unwilling to let go of the mythos of hunting Africa created by gun writers.

The whole point of the Spomer article was to show 7mm rifles are very capable of killing the biggest plains game animals. And shooting lighter recoiling rifles resulted in better shot placement, quick kills, and no lost game. Making for a better experience for those going to Africa. But if you want to use a 416 rigby because that is what Harry Selby used, go ahead. Just be prepaired to pay trophy fees for wounded animals.

Exactly. And you you go through his volume of work you will see him espouse all the same old tropes.

I just posted his recent experience because it was well supported by evidence and not lore. But he goes into lore with his, 'the 7x57 worked better then a 375 on wildebeest' bit. N of 1.

Big guns, little guns, arrows, spears, pointy rocks tied to sticks all work.

But when it comes to guns 'better' is subjective and people lead with opinions and feels and not facts. If the animal is dead, and I mean dead and dead quickly, there is no 'better' option. There is no more deader.

Then they make up stuff like a 375 will go through brush. Or if you only get one shot on a trophy hunt. Then never explain why a 375 would work on that one shot and not a 7x57. You ask, will you take a non-ideal shot with the 375 or do you think there is a proper shot that only the 375 will kill the animal and not the 7x57.

They deflect, the don't want to admit to taking unethical shots, which probably won't be fatal, then bloviate that animals are somehow too big to be shot with a smaller bullet if they are trophy animal rather then cull animals. Provide no facts, no evidence, just unsubstantiated opinions.

I’m really having a difficult time believing you are trying to do anything here but be argumentative. You are creating ideas as you go. You might notice no one is agreeing with you. So far you are the only one to suggest 120 gr 7mm can’t kill an eland or you need a 375 to kill a springbok. What advice did I give that would make a novice think they need a large magnum to hunt Africa? I’d recommend anything from 270-300 for a standard plains game hunt, but would lean towards 300-375 for eland. I’d recommend a 375 for a one gun safari in a dangerous game area. I’ve taken around 100 game animals in Africa in 7 countries. I’ve wounded and lost 1 animal, a Cape buffalo because the shot was too high. I’m not sure what you don’t understand about different hunting situations, terrains, and pairing the right cartridge and bullet to the situation, but I also don’t think you want to. I think you’ve read too much without enough hunting to understand what you are trying to repeat.

 

[AckleyHunter]

Aren’t documented and proven results facts?

View attachment 785449
View attachment 785450View attachment 785451

This leopard was taken with a .375 H&H. He was treed in heavy cover. The shot taken may (by some standards) be considered unethical. But it’s the only shot that could be taken.

I’m glad I had the .375 and TBBC’s to go through the junk and still hit accurately where I wanted the projectile to land and perform as expected. I don’t believe a .7mm or less could have plowed through that crap and done what the .375 can do time after time without worry.

People shoot 1000'sof mountian lions out of pine trees with 223s and hanguns. You don't need a 375

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Interesting topic. As a normal rule, looking at small & fast vs big and slow, I firmly prefer the big & fast option for all forms of hunting in relative terms. As for African PG being tougher than North American game, that is in my opinion not true. The African game is harder to kill only because their vitals are positioned further forward and lower between the front legs which can make a broadside shot harder to make, especially with a traditional cup & core bullet. That has led to failures when using marginal cartridges on plains game in some cases and all that has led to the lore that African PG is tougher.

In my experience, if you shoot them in the vitals with a heavy for caliber bonded core or copper mono bullet that is more likely to penetrate from any angle and thru any bones, they will die just as quickly as any other game in the world.

The advent of those modern bonded and copper mono bullets has led to much better overall performance by smaller, lighter calibers like the 7mm's and smaller options. This has made it possible to harvest big game with rifles that in the past might not have been adequate. But, apply those same bullets in larger, heavier calibers running at similar velocities and I have found that the big n fast option is just as effective if not more so on large, tough animals. One of my favorites is the 338 cartridges running 225g bullets at speeds from 2750 up to about 2950 depending on the cartridge and bbl length chosen. These just seem to hammer in more cases than not. With the right bullets the 375 can also be very effective but it's factory ammo is all focused on dangerous game and as such the bullets tend to be tougher and expand more slowly so, you can take down that Cape Buffalo without failure. As a result, using a 300g TSX or TBBC, or A-Frame to kill a deer or African antelope it will not always expand enough to "Knock em flat". It kills em well enough but not any better than a 30-06.

That has led to the impression that the 375HH does not kill as effectively on PG as other smaller, faster cartridges such as the 30-06, 7x57, or 300wm, etc. Load that 375HH with a 235 or 250g bullet using a more reactive design such as cup n core or Nosler Partition and you can get better results on non-DG animals. Trouble is most of the factory loads do not offer such options for fear that some dumbass with try to use them on Elephants or Woozles. This handicaps the 375 for PG use. Might as well be using solids. I do have a DT factory load using a 235g TSX bullet for my 375HH that chrono's an actual 3055fps in my rifle. That will knock em flat.

Keep in mind that the bigger the bore the larger the aerodynamic drag that is placed on the bullet. This slows them down faster than most long range rockets like the 300wm for example. A 375HH no matter what bullet you use has slowed enough to be well out of its optimum range at 400y. Now, if you hit a Moose with it at 400y it will die, but the effect is not the same as it will be if you limit your shots to 300y and less and honestly it is in it sweet spot inside of 200y. Attempting shots that are too far with the wrong bullets is part of why some hunters have experiences that lead to opinions that the 375HH is less effective than the 7x57. I make a point of limiting all of my hunting shots to the range where the bullet speed drops to below 2000fps no matter which caliber or bullet combo I may be using at the time. Do that and most any bullet and caliber is going to get the job done in a more or less effective manner.

600lb Nilgai taken with one shot with 225g AccuBond in 338wm at 237y - DRT​