Anyone know what is up w/ Winchester Ammo's discontinued offerings?

To your point, I hope you are correct.....

Flbt said:

The 6.5 loads were a bit tongue and cheek
Looking in gun digest they have a cm 140 gr 2710 fps and a 55 load 140gr 2735 fps
So what exactly does the cm offer?

Click to expand...

Exactly.

Mtn_Infantry said:

Paul, some also has to do with the extremely thin margins on guns and ammo. When the average customer is over the age of 40, and has a surplus of guns, optics, and accessories and the only real thing they need to buy is the consumable like ammo, stores need to target and get those customers to buy something new, or convince newer customers the shinny new thing is “New and Improved” like your Tide, to get a bigger dollar spend compared to just a $40-100/box on ammo. Wouldn’t have nearly the number of dealers if they just survived on ammo because everyone could use their granddad’s old 30-06.

30-06 ammo still sells but the number of 30-06 guns being bought today is extremely small compared to other calibers.

Click to expand...

Hello Mtn_Infantry,

After retiring from my career, I worked for a time, as a clerk in a gun shop.
And so having seen first hand the profit margins on ammunition and on brand new guns as you described, is indeed sometimes very thin.
And so, I do agree with you.

However that seems like a manufacturer’s problem and a retail store problem, not a me problem.
I am not easily swayed by the puffed up claims and glittering generalities of sales pitches.
Perhaps analytical consumers are the marketing industry’s nightmare.
But, marketing executives should be thankful that there are so many impulsive consumers, instead of large numbers of analytical consumers.

And my point remains that, it is remarkable (not in a good way), to see the overly eager masses rushing to buy seemingly anything and everything that is new, even when whatever they are rushing to buy, does not actually do anything new.
(7MM-08 vs 7x57 for just one example among the many).
This, to the detriment of other consumers such as myself who, now have difficulty finding what used to be plentiful on retail shelves.

I totally get it that manufacturers make a higher profit if they can lead us gullible consumers toward buying things we don’t need, such as new rifles and the newest designed cartridges to fit them.
Being as I am a confirmed Elmer Fudd it should be no surprise that I will virtually never buy anything which merely duplicates something that I already have.
Your mention of a grand parent handing down a .30-06 rifle is a good illustration of that concept.

In furtherance of this topic, there are so many already established cartridges by now that they more than likely cover all conceivable scenarios …. well, at least all conceivable hunting scenarios.
And so, if people would stop buying new cartridges that don’t actually do anything new, the firearms and ammunition companies would have to be satisfied making and selling such things as .30-06 rifles and ammunition, 7x57 rifles and ammunition, etc., etc.

At the end of the day, I do not believe my
view of the firearms and ammunition industry will ever be very popular.
Evidently quite a large number of consumers go for whatever is in style.
I wish things were different but they are not and I understand that.

Fortunately, I have a serious supply of hand loading components for my boring old out of style rifles in useless cartridges such as the .22 Hornet, 6.5x55, .30-30, .30-06 and .375 H&H.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

Velo Dog said:

However that seems like a manufacturer’s problem and a retail store problem, not a me problem.

Click to expand...

It’s a “you” problem because that’s how business owners have elected to fix their problem. You’ve got a supply of reloading components for the calibers you shoot and load for. You’ve selected your solution, just like the manufacturers and retailers have as well. I’m well on my way of following suit with you (until I add something new). If manufacturers didn’t change in some way we’d all be faced with a smaller industry and likely more expensive products. Simple economy of scale.

Ultimately businesses adapt to changes in the consumer market, as they require for profitability. Consumers learn to adapt to those manufacturing changes, which leads to a constantly evolving market place aka a vicious cycle.

Mtn_Infantry said:

It’s a “you” problem because that’s how business owners have elected to fix their problem. You’ve got a supply of reloading components for the calibers you shoot and load for. You’ve selected your solution, just like the manufacturers and retailers have as well. I’m well on my way of following suit with you (until I add something new). If manufacturers didn’t change in some way we’d all be faced with a smaller industry and likely more expensive products. Simple economy of scale.

Ultimately businesses adapt to changes in the consumer market, as they require for profitability. Consumers learn to adapt to those manufacturing changes, which leads to a constantly evolving market place aka a vicious cycle.

Click to expand...

The only thing is the company’s should have a duty to manufacture
They sold and marked the original cartridge.
With the expectation that cartridge would be available.
If the company tells you ahead of time they will quickly drop said product I bet the initial sells of that rifle would not go over.

I understand very low sells but of other company loads ammo the parent company should.

Not everyone can reload

Flbt said:

The only thing is the company’s should have a duty to manufacture
They sold and marked the original cartridge.
With the expectation that cartridge would be available.
If the company tells you ahead of time they will quickly drop said product I bet the initial sells of that rifle would not go over.

I understand very low sells but of other company loads ammo the parent company should.

Not everyone can reload

Click to expand...

They also sold the orginal Model T, International Farmall, and John Deere 95, single bottom plows, and horse pulled checked corn planters, and refrigerators with metal compressors. No industry can guarantee their product is relevant, or make parts forever.

If you compare it to any other industry on the planet, none provide so much, going back so far, as this one. I hate not finding my favorites as the next guy, but man... we have an embarrassment of riches compared to any other industry I can think of.

Mtn_Infantry said:

It’s a “you” problem because that’s how business owners have elected to fix their problem. You’ve got a supply of reloading components for the calibers you shoot and load for. You’ve selected your solution, just like the manufacturers and retailers have as well. I’m well on my way of following suit with you (until I add something new). If manufacturers didn’t change in some way we’d all be faced with a smaller industry and likely more expensive products. Simple economy of scale.

Ultimately businesses adapt to changes in the consumer market, as they require for profitability. Consumers learn to adapt to those manufacturing changes, which leads to a constantly evolving market place aka a vicious cycle.

Click to expand...

Hi again Mt_Infantry,

Yup, that’s all true, sad but true.
I always enjoy reading your posts.
You are an excellent writer.

On this topic, a fellow that I went to high school with and sometimes hunt deer with in Montana, fell for the short magnum fad a few years ago.
He popped into a gun store and leaped on a new rifle in .300 Short Magnum.
Now he has difficulty finding live factory ammunition for it, a rude awakening to the industry’s successful advertising efforts.
He’s now shopping for reloading equipment and components, which is a long over due good thing for him.

So far he has taken two mule deer with his fad dujoir short action magnum, one at a little over 100 paces and another at about 75 paces.
Good thing he was firing a new trendy “magnum” cartridge for such barrel busting long shots.
Fortunately he wisely also kept his old Model 70 Winchester in caliber .30-06 to fall back on, if all else fails.
If a little extra velocity is important to him and he is careful, he perhaps can hand load the .30-06 with lighter bullets for deer at close to his short magnum cartridge ballistics.
Close enough for normal hunting distances anyway.

The magazine on his trendy hipster rifle is so short that he cannot however use 220 grain bullets, (except possibly as a single shot), if he ever wants to hunt boar, bear, elk or moose.
Any typical old .30-06 repeater of course handles 220 grainers no problem.

Also, when I worked in a gun store, the only otherwise usually excellent Model 70’s that I noticed were returned now and then to the store with feeding problems were ones chambered in short magnums (too short fat and square shouldered).
Trendy short action cartridges for big game, no thanks.

With that I will shut my not-a-team-player mouth.

Cheers,
Velo Fudd.

Velo Dog said:

Hi again Mt_Infantry,

Yup, that’s all true, sad but true.
I always enjoy reading your posts.
You are an excellent writer.

On this topic, a fellow that I went to high school with and sometimes hunt deer with in Montana, fell for the short magnum fad a few years ago.
He popped into a gun store and leaped on a new rifle in .300 Short Magnum.
Now he has difficulty finding live factory ammunition for it, a rude awakening to the industry’s successful advertising efforts.
He’s now shopping for reloading equipment and components, which is a long over due good thing for him.

So far he has taken two mule deer with his fad dujoir short action magnum, one at a little over 100 paces and another at about 75 paces.
Good thing he was firing a new trendy “magnum” cartridge for such barrel busting long shots.
Fortunately he wisely also kept his old Model 70 Winchester in caliber .30-06 to fall back on, if all else fails.
If a little extra velocity is important to him and he is careful, he perhaps can hand load the .30-06 with lighter bullets for deer at close to his short magnum cartridge ballistics.
Close enough for normal hunting distances anyway.

The magazine on his trendy hipster rifle is so short that he cannot however use 220 grain bullets, (except possibly as a single shot), if he ever wants to hunt boar, bear, elk or moose.
Any typical old .30-06 repeater of course handles 220 grainers no problem.

Also, when I worked in a gun store, the only otherwise usually excellent Model 70’s that I noticed were returned now and then to the store with feeding problems were ones chambered in short magnums (too short fat and square shouldered).
Trendy short action cartridges for big game, no thanks.

With that I will shut my not-a-team-player mouth.

Cheers,
Velo Fudd.

Click to expand...

I mean... Ya ain't wrong. Not all ideas are good ones. Most industry has more misses than hits.

Flbt said:

The only thing is the company’s should have a duty to manufacture
They sold and marked the original cartridge.
With the expectation that cartridge would be available.
If the company tells you ahead of time they will quickly drop said product I bet the initial sells of that rifle would not go over.

I understand very low sells but of other company loads ammo the parent company should.

Not everyone can reload

Click to expand...

I 100% disagree but you need to expand your logic from ammo to other products. Let’s spin it another way. You bought how many boxes of ammo a year since you started hunting? You increased to how many boxes post Sandy Hook, during the Obama years, and Covid; do you still have a duty to keep buying that same number of boxes per year? If you did I bet the manufacturer would keep making the calibers and offerings people are bitching about being discontinued. How about cars? Bows? Phones? Clothes? The list goes on.

Now if we look at the 33WM caliber, it was released in the 50’s they have zero duty to continue manufacturing. Additionally, they haven’t stopped making it, they’ve just trimmed their offering down to a grain weight the OP didn’t like.

As for other calibers; if something is a flop, a manufacturer has zero duty to continue to manufacture and those with rifles are SOL. Same if a rifle manufacturer stops making rifles, ammo manufacturers have zero duty to continue to manufacture because they once did or launched the caliber.

Expand this to another product and the principle is the same. Does Apple have a Duty to keep manufacturing the original iPhone or iPod? Do they have a duty to keep writing the software updates for it? How about an iPhone 10? What about a Ford Pinto and parts, or Chevy in the 2000’s when they dropped the Camaro? Or Pontiac. Just because they make something doesn’t require them to maintain making it, just like because you bought something once doesn’t require you to keep buying it annually. I know a lot of us would love to, but it’s about our personal finances and not going bankrupt. A company is no different regardless if they make ammo, bread, cars or condoms.

Velo Dog said:

Hi again Mt_Infantry,

Yup, that’s all true, sad but true.
I always enjoy reading your posts.
You are an excellent writer.

On this topic, a fellow that I went to high school with and sometimes hunt deer with in Montana, fell for the short magnum fad a few years ago.
He popped into a gun store and leaped on a new rifle in .300 Short Magnum.
Now he has difficulty finding live factory ammunition for it, a rude awakening to the industry’s successful advertising efforts.
He’s now shopping for reloading equipment and components, which is a long over due good thing for him.

So far he has taken two mule deer with his fad dujoir short action magnum, one at a little over 100 paces and another at about 75 paces.
Good thing he was firing a new trendy “magnum” cartridge for such barrel busting long shots.
Fortunately he wisely also kept his old Model 70 Winchester in caliber .30-06 to fall back on, if all else fails.
If a little extra velocity is important to him and he is careful, he perhaps can hand load the .30-06 with lighter bullets for deer at close to his short magnum cartridge ballistics.
Close enough for normal hunting distances anyway.

The magazine on his trendy hipster rifle is so short that he cannot however use 220 grain bullets, (except possibly as a single shot), if he ever wants to hunt boar, bear, elk or moose.
Any typical old .30-06 repeater of course handles 220 grainers no problem.

Also, when I worked in a gun store, the only otherwise usually excellent Model 70’s that I noticed were returned now and then to the store with feeding problems were ones chambered in short magnums (too short fat and square shouldered).
Trendy short action cartridges for big game, no thanks.

With that I will shut my not-a-team-player mouth.

Cheers,
Velo Fudd.

Click to expand...

You’re not wrong at all. It’s not just a risk with firearms it’s a risk with every consumer good. I believe someone posted a while ago about favorite brands. The list was long with a lot of old favorites. Take the chainsaw thread for instance, or the car thread. Marketing gets a lot of people not just in guns/ammo.

Thank you for the compliment by the way.

Mtn_Infantry said:

I 100% disagree but you need to expand your logic from ammo to other products. Let’s spin it another way. You bought how many boxes of ammo a year since you started hunting? You increased to how many boxes post Sandy Hook, during the Obama years, and Covid; do you still have a duty to keep buying that same number of boxes per year? If you did I bet the manufacturer would keep making the calibers and offerings people are bitching about being discontinued. How about cars? Bows? Phones? Clothes? The list goes on.

Now if we look at the 33WM caliber, it was released in the 50’s they have zero duty to continue manufacturing. Additionally, they haven’t stopped making it, they’ve just trimmed their offering down to a grain weight the OP didn’t like.

As for other calibers; if something is a flop, a manufacturer has zero duty to continue to manufacture and those with rifles are SOL. Same if a rifle manufacturer stops making rifles, ammo manufacturers have zero duty to continue to manufacture because they once did or launched the caliber.

Expand this to another product and the principle is the same. Does Apple have a Duty to keep manufacturing the original iPhone or iPod? Do they have a duty to keep writing the software updates for it? How about an iPhone 10? What about a Ford Pinto and parts, or Chevy in the 2000’s when they dropped the Camaro? Or Pontiac. Just because they make something doesn’t require them to maintain making it, just like because you bought something once doesn’t require you to keep buying it annually. I know a lot of us would love to, but it’s about our personal finances and not going bankrupt. A company is no different regardless if they make ammo, bread, cars or condoms.

Click to expand...

They pushed there products with the idea of being able to buy ammo.
Why remake a cal 6.5 cm when the old 6.5x55 will do the same market the older cartridge the way they push the new one.

If the standard gun buying would never buy a rifle if they thought the ammo would be dropped
I have heard from more than one buyer that they would never buy a new Winchester cartridge again when they got to where they could not find 243 and 25 wssm ammo.
One guy that I knew bout there 25 but saw it going down the tubes and started buying ammo for it by the case.

akrifleman said:

They also sold the orginal Model T, International Farmall, and John Deere 95, single bottom plows, and horse pulled checked corn planters, and refrigerators with metal compressors. No industry can guarantee their product is relevant, or make parts forever.

If you compare it to any other industry on the planet, none provide so much, going back so far, as this one. I hate not finding my favorites as the next guy, but man... we have an embarrassment of riches compared to any other industry I can think of.

Click to expand...

The cartridge that still sells is not the same as a horse drown corn planter. The cartridge is still in standers use the corn planter is not.
But hell you can still get the parts for that old stuff
And company still make them
Not long before my dad died he had the stuff brought in to rebuild a cane juicier and it was my grate g grandpa

Flbt said:

The cartridge that still sells is not the same as a horse drown corn planter. The cartridge is still in standers use the corn planter is not.
But hell you can still get the parts for that old stuff
And company still make them
Not long before my dad died he had the stuff brought in to rebuild a cane juicier and it was my grate g grandpa

Click to expand...

Any rifle can be rebuilt like any cane juicer or vintage truck. It doesn't happen by magic. Search high and low for New Old Stock, or fabricate.

Flbt said:

They pushed there products with the idea of being able to buy ammo.
Why remake a cal 6.5 cm when the old 6.5x55 will do the same market the older cartridge the way they push the new one.

If the standard gun buying would never buy a rifle if they thought the ammo would be dropped
I have heard from more than one buyer that they would never buy a new Winchester cartridge again when they got to where they could not find 243 and 25 wssm ammo.
One guy that I knew bout there 25 but saw it going down the tubes and started buying ammo for it by the case.

Click to expand...

We covered the SAMMI spec part of 6.5x55 and 6.5 Creed earlier. They may hunt the same, but the Creed was built for, and entirely for, competition. Period. People tried the Swede and the 6.5x284, and many others. The Creed won hands down. Then manufacturers realized it fits a short action, and the Swede had no demand. It isn't complicated.

The 243 and all 308 children exists because the military wanted less ammo weight, and standardized the 308. The 223 beat the 222 and 222Mag because the military adopted it. 350 Legend exists due to absurd laws. The 470NE was born because the Brits banned the 450NE.

The world marches on.

Flbt said:

They pushed there products with the idea of being able to buy ammo.
Why remake a cal 6.5 cm when the old 6.5x55 will do the same market the older cartridge the way they push the new one.

If the standard gun buying would never buy a rifle if they thought the ammo would be dropped
I have heard from more than one buyer that they would never buy a new Winchester cartridge again when they got to where they could not find 243 and 25 wssm ammo.
One guy that I knew bout there 25 but saw it going down the tubes and started buying ammo for it by the case.

Click to expand...

Sure they pushed it, but they didn’t tell you if they’d indefinitely support it, do it for a year, 75 years, or what. That decision is up to them. If all manufacturers chose to stop loading 30-06 tomorrow that’s their decision, lot of customers would be upset, same with many rifle manufacturers, and customers of theirs but they’re not beholden to you, I, or another manufacturer and don’t need to explain themselves. Their only responsibility is to their shareholders or ownership if privately held.

Additionally, we’re not talking at a 6.5 Creedmoor that was designed by Creedmoor Rifles in cooperation with Hornady. We’re talking about a Win Mag Cartridge designed and launched in the 50’s by a company that isn’t the same as the one today making ammo today, and exists in name only.

There are good products that never take off for one reason or another, and bad products that become best sellers despite themselves or being nearly identical to something else. That’s not unique to the firearms industry or many others. Timing and Marketing have a huge impact on both. A company that launches a product (regardless of the industry) has zero duty or obligation to support it if they’ve made a decision to shelve or discontinue the product and in reality, they don’t need to make that decision just because it’s not profitable. In theory, they could make that decision to force you to upgrade as well. Maybe slow your processing speeds down, reduce battery life, or fuel mileage, design parts with reduced life cycles, should I keep going?

Furthermore how and what they do with their already manufactured widgets and components (regardless of industry) is the company’s decision to make. If they choose to dump them with a parts liquidator, sell them quietly (pre discontinuing), maintain them for warranty support, future projects, or to drive up value on them; it’s entirely up to the company.

You don’t need to agree, you don’t need to like it, but that’s called free market trade and capitalism. It’s also what allows you to go out and create your own company to service the niche you feel is under serviced and profit as long as you abide by any patent and IP.

Mtn_Infantry said:

It’s a “you” problem because that’s how business owners have elected to fix their problem. You’ve got a supply of reloading components for the calibers you shoot and load for. You’ve selected your solution, just like the manufacturers and retailers have as well. I’m well on my way of following suit with you (until I add something new). If manufacturers didn’t change in some way we’d all be faced with a smaller industry and likely more expensive products. Simple economy of scale.

Ultimately businesses adapt to changes in the consumer market, as they require for profitability. Consumers learn to adapt to those manufacturing changes, which leads to a constantly evolving market place aka a vicious cycle.

Click to expand...

Mtn_Infantry said:

I 100% disagree but you need to expand your logic from ammo to other products. Let’s spin it another way. You bought how many boxes of ammo a year since you started hunting? You increased to how many boxes post Sandy Hook, during the Obama years, and Covid; do you still have a duty to keep buying that same number of boxes per year? If you did I bet the manufacturer would keep making the calibers and offerings people are bitching about being discontinued. How about cars? Bows? Phones? Clothes? The list goes on.

Now if we look at the 33WM caliber, it was released in the 50’s they have zero duty to continue manufacturing. Additionally, they haven’t stopped making it, they’ve just trimmed their offering down to a grain weight the OP didn’t like.

As for other calibers; if something is a flop, a manufacturer has zero duty to continue to manufacture and those with rifles are SOL. Same if a rifle manufacturer stops making rifles, ammo manufacturers have zero duty to continue to manufacture because they once did or launched the caliber.

Expand this to another product and the principle is the same. Does Apple have a Duty to keep manufacturing the original iPhone or iPod? Do they have a duty to keep writing the software updates for it? How about an iPhone 10? What about a Ford Pinto and parts, or Chevy in the 2000’s when they dropped the Camaro? Or Pontiac. Just because they make something doesn’t require them to maintain making it, just like because you bought something once doesn’t require you to keep buying it annually. I know a lot of us would love to, but it’s about our personal finances and not going bankrupt. A company is no different regardless if they make ammo, bread, cars or condoms.

Click to expand...

So your hypothesis is valid, but how do you square the fact "Olin/Winchester" is still MFG'ing Mod 70 in .338WM & .458WM yet has determined to stop making .338WM & .458WM brass and zero "off the shelf" Ammo? & that ain't market manipulation?! Your view is peak hedge fund/private equity *cannibalistic capitalism ..... For fu<k sake! Mods delete this post already!

Xpraetor said:

Does anyone have insight as to why Winchester Ammo has reduced .338WM offering(s) to only 200GR , .358W offering(s) to only 200GR and .375W offering(s) to only 200GR .... in addition to other calibers that have reduced offerings, many of which bear the Winchester name. What is worse , there is zero offering for .458WM?!

However, I reload a portion of my ammo, bit that is due to the limited availability of the ammo I need.

From my perspective the current product line for Winchester Ammo is just pathetic!

Click to expand...

I agree 100%.

In my opinion, Winchester ammunition had it’s greatest heyday in the early 2000s until 2010. They were loading ammunition for the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, .416 Remington Magnum, .416 Rigby and .458 Winchester Magnum. All with Nosler Partitions and Nosler monolithic solids.

Now, they’ve streamlined most of their production.

Xpraetor said:

So your hypothesis is valid, but how do you square the fact "Olin/Winchester" is still MFG'ing Mod 70 in .338WM & .458WM yet has determined to stop making .338WM & .458WM brass and zero "off the shelf" Ammo? & that ain't market manipulation?! Your view is peak hedge fund/private equity *cannibalistic capitalism ..... For fu<k sake! Mods delete this post already!

Click to expand...

I believe the “Winchester” producing firearms and the “Winchester” producing ammunition, are entirely different companies now.

The Winchester Ammunition Company is owned and loaded by Olin Corporation in the USA.

The Winchester Firearms Company is owned by Fabrique Nationale in Belgium. Their bolt action rifles are built in Portugal, while their lever action rifles are built in Japan. Their shotguns are made in Japan and Turkey.

Flbt said:

The cartridge that still sells is not the same as a horse drown corn planter. The cartridge is still in standers use the corn planter is not.
But hell you can still get the parts for that old stuff
And company still make them
Not long before my dad died he had the stuff brought in to rebuild a cane juicier and it was my grate g grandpa

Click to expand...

Exactly! We have a tractor that was the "Deluxe" in 1930s , the freakin' "Great Depression" & **NEW** parts are available!

I don't know I'm just being dramatic

Hunter-Habib said:

I believe the “Winchester” producing firearms and the “Winchester” producing ammunition, are entirely different companies now.

The Winchester Ammunition Company is owned and loaded by Olin Corporation in the USA.

The Winchester Firearms Company is owned by Fabrique Nationale in Belgium. Their bolt action rifles are built in Portugal, while their lever action rifles are built in Japan. Their shotguns are made in Japan and Turkey.

Click to expand...

Well, that explains a lot .... guess my aggravation is miss directed.

Appreciate you setting things straight.

Plus it shows my intellect is lacking to understand the * Bigger picture.