Anyone know what is up w/ Winchester Ammo's discontinued offerings?

[Xpraetor]

I'd already DM'd you.

I never never said AH wasn't legit. It is *still* an "influencer", as negative as that word has become in the TikTok world. Media isn't always a dirty word.

One of the reasons I love it is the beauty of experience and aggregation of sample size. And probably because it's as close to a hunting camp you can enjoy in the offseason.

Apologies, my comment about AH media was in no way made because I thought you impuned this platform. I made that comment as my exclamation of thought ..... I should have worded that comment better.

As you rightly stated there are "influences" , and we are simpatico on the view that AH is a net positive influence.

 

[Firebird]

The only good thing that came
From this entire post is that I used the “ignore” button for xpraetor . . .

 

[Xpraetor]

The only good thing that came
From this entire post is that I used the “ignore” button for xpraetor . . .

Oh no, how will I sleep at night .... Hahaha!!!

 

[Velo Dog]

They pushed there products with the idea of being able to buy ammo.
Why remake a cal 6.5 cm when the old 6.5x55 will do the same market the older cartridge the way they push the new one.

If the standard gun buying would never buy a rifle if they thought the ammo would be dropped
I have heard from more than one buyer that they would never buy a new Winchester cartridge again when they got to where they could not find 243 and 25 wssm ammo.
One guy that I knew bout there 25 but saw it going down the tubes and started buying ammo for it by the case.

Exactly.

 

[Flbt]

Sure they pushed it, but they didn’t tell you if they’d indefinitely support it, do it for a year, 75 years, or what. That decision is up to them. If all manufacturers chose to stop loading 30-06 tomorrow that’s their decision, lot of customers would be upset, same with many rifle manufacturers, and customers of theirs but they’re not beholden to you, I, or another manufacturer and don’t need to explain themselves. Their only responsibility is to their shareholders or ownership if privately held.

Additionally, we’re not talking at a 6.5 Creedmoor that was designed by Creedmoor Rifles in cooperation with Hornady. We’re talking about a Win Mag Cartridge designed and launched in the 50’s by a company that isn’t the same as the one today making ammo today, and exists in name only.

There are good products that never take off for one reason or another, and bad products that become best sellers despite themselves or being nearly identical to something else. That’s not unique to the firearms industry or many others. Timing and Marketing have a huge impact on both. A company that launches a product (regardless of the industry) has zero duty or obligation to support it if they’ve made a decision to shelve or discontinue the product and in reality, they don’t need to make that decision just because it’s not profitable. In theory, they could make that decision to force you to upgrade as well. Maybe slow your processing speeds down, reduce battery life, or fuel mileage, design parts with reduced life cycles, should I keep going?

Furthermore how and what they do with their already manufactured widgets and components (regardless of industry) is the company’s decision to make. If they choose to dump them with a parts liquidator, sell them quietly (pre discontinuing), maintain them for warranty support, future projects, or to drive up value on them; it’s entirely up to the company.

You don’t need to agree, you don’t need to like it, but that’s called free market trade and capitalism. It’s also what allows you to go out and create your own company to service the niche you feel is under serviced and profit as long as you abide by any patent and IP.

They might not have said out right they would keep making ammo.
But going by what the companies did until the modern concept showed they would.
They may have only did limited runs.
But in the 80-90 you could easily find 30-40k and 25-20 32-20 25-35 38&44 wcf
And when did they stop chambering them in new guns? For some at least until cowboy action shooting?

How many decades did they make ammo after they made the last firearm in it?

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

They might not have said out right they would keep making ammo.
But going by what the companies did until the modern concept showed they would.
They may have only did limited runs.
But in the 80-90 you could easily find 30-40k and 25-20 32-20 25-35 38&44 wcf
And when did they stop chambering them in new guns? For some at least until cowboy action shooting?

How many decades did they make ammo after they made the last firearm in it?

Not sure how long Winchester loaded it and chambered guns in it. I know those calibers are still offered by other manufacturers.

Companies were privately owned and run differently. 35-45 years later and now their goal is to hit a month, quarter, year end number. Just because they did it in the past doesn’t mean they need to continue. Just like consumers dont need to panic buy because they once did. Companies make and push product that allow them to be profitable and maximize revenue. They do so with zero promises or obligation to maintain that should consumer demand shift, or really for any reason. Slow velocity calibers don’t help with ROI and profitability.

Not saying it’s right, just answering the OP’s question as to what could be and likely is going on.

That said I’m sure the smaller boutique manufacturers and loaders like Hendershots and Superior are thriving because of it. Maybe there’s room for someone else on AH to start manufacturing and loading this stuff. At least you’d be able to write-off your Africa trips … but no one seems to want to do it or take that risk because we all expect someone else to take the hit to their wallet.

 

[Flbt]

Not sure how long Winchester loaded it and chambered guns in it. I know those calibers are still offered by other manufacturers.

Companies were privately owned and run differently. 35-45 years later and now their goal is to hit a month, quarter, year end number. Just because they did it in the past doesn’t mean they need to continue. Just like consumers dont need to panic buy because they once did. Companies make and push product that allow them to be profitable and maximize revenue. They do so with zero promises or obligation to maintain that should consumer demand shift, or really for any reason. Slow velocity calibers don’t help with ROI and profitability.

Not saying it’s right, just answering the OP’s question as to what could be and likely is going on.

That said I’m sure the smaller boutique manufacturers and loaders like Hendershots and Superior are thriving because of it. Maybe there’s room for someone else on AH to start manufacturing and loading this stuff. At least you’d be able to write-off your Africa trips … but no one seems to want to do it or take that risk because we all expect someone else to take the hit to their wallet.

Well one thing is simple
There customers want loyalty like the give the company.
If they keep adding new cartridge and dropping the quick and dropping old proven cartridge. At least for the older buyers
They will quit buying.
And there own marketing will put them out of business where the anti gun people did not.

Just like the high cost of 22 lr now
The gun industry is shooting itself in the foot

 

[Tgood1]

I feel this, some, my ruger 77 plain jane wood stock .338 wm will stack a 1/2 -3/4" group, at 200 yards with 225gr accubond big game, bought 4 boxes after I found this out. Leveled w elk with them. Really great factory ammo.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Well one thing is simple
There customers want loyalty like the give the company.
If they keep adding new cartridge and dropping the quick and dropping old proven cartridge. At least for the older buyers
They will quit buying.
And there own marketing will put them out of business where the anti gun people did not.

Just like the high cost of 22 lr now
The gun industry is shooting itself in the foot

It’s actually much more complex than you realize and isn’t unique to the ammo industry. Look at it across a broad space of a bunch of industries and you’ll see trends. Without getting too into the weeds

Current consumer purchasing trends have shown brand loyalty isn’t as valuable as it once was among the Boomer and Gen X generations, and is almost meaningless to a majority of millennial and Gen Z buyers. The first two generations are shrinking daily while the second two generations (Y & Z) raise/teach the next two generations (Alpha & Beta). Marketing Departments in all industries understand this and are hedging against one consumer segment in favor of trying to capture and create the next generation of consumer. Many of the Gen Z/Y’s have thrown fiscal solvency to the wayside and are impulsive in their purchases and spending. They often don’t take pride in or care of their tools and property the same way past generations do. Take a car, a house or firearm for example; if looking at buying used would you typically favor the Boomer/Gex X owned one or the Millenial or Gen Z owned one? Maybe I’m alone but I feel Boomers/Gen X typically takes better care of things than my fellow millennials.

There’s a ton of talk about AI and Data Centers. Even a post here on AH wondering how many are using it in their hunting. Has anyone else noticed a potential correlation in ammo prices rising and the increases in technology, AI and Data Centers? I wonder if there are common raw materials used between the two? Is there increased competition between the two industries as well as others (who’ve also seen huge increases in costs)? I wonder if there was an easy way to see what those common raw materials cost and if they’ve increased? That must just be the Hedge Fund/PE side of me …

As an aside, I’d personally love to see the P&L’s for Winchester today vs 1950, 1970, and 1990. I’m speculating but I’d venture to guess profit margins were better back in the day. We know they were for Remington or they wouldn’t have gone bankrupt.

Just gonna sit over here and keep watching the fluctuations in stock market, commodity prices, and paying attention to the global news that doesn’t get reported and wonder what/how things are connected.

 

[Flbt]

It’s actually much more complex than you realize and isn’t unique to the ammo industry. Look at it across a broad space of a bunch of industries and you’ll see trends. Without getting too into the weeds

Current consumer purchasing trends have shown brand loyalty isn’t as valuable as it once was among the Boomer and Gen X generations, and is almost meaningless to a majority of millennial and Gen Z buyers. The first two generations are shrinking daily while the second two generations (Y & Z) raise/teach the next two generations (Alpha & Beta). Marketing Departments in all industries understand this and are hedging against one consumer segment in favor of trying to capture and create the next generation of consumer. Many of the Gen Z/Y’s have thrown fiscal solvency to the wayside and are impulsive in their purchases and spending. They often don’t take pride in or care of their tools and property the same way past generations do. Take a car, a house or firearm for example; if looking at buying used would you typically favor the Boomer/Gex X owned one or the Millenial or Gen Z owned one? Maybe I’m alone but I feel Boomers/Gen X typically takes better care of things than my fellow millennials.

There’s a ton of talk about AI and Data Centers. Even a post here on AH wondering how many are using it in their hunting. Has anyone else noticed a potential correlation in ammo prices rising and the increases in technology, AI and Data Centers? I wonder if there are common raw materials used between the two? Is there increased competition between the two industries as well as others (who’ve also seen huge increases in costs)? I wonder if there was an easy way to see what those common raw materials cost and if they’ve increased? That must just be the Hedge Fund/PE side of me …

As an aside, I’d personally love to see the P&L’s for Winchester today vs 1950, 1970, and 1990. I’m speculating but I’d venture to guess profit margins were better back in the day. We know they were for Remington or they wouldn’t have gone bankrupt.

Just gonna sit over here and keep watching the fluctuations in stock market, commodity prices, and paying attention to the global news that doesn’t get reported and wonder what/how things are connected.

Do you think that the lack of brand loyalty is because of the way the company now acts?

 

[akrifleman]

Do you think that the lack of brand loyalty is because of the way the company now acts?

You mean the way everyone abandoned US brands and flocked to Walmart for Chinese brands? Or no wait, the way everyone finds the lowest price on the internet?

US customers have nearly zero brand loyalty. Everyone wanted cheap over well made and well supported. We proved it over and over.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Do you think that the lack of brand loyalty is because of the way the company now acts?

From the studies I’ve read and trends I’ve seen; No there are other factors causing it. It’s also not all price driven, though that is one of the factors.

Now I do believe certain industries and demographics/regions are less impacted by those factors. IMO I think the gun/hunting industry’s consumers are one that still clings to some of the old ways and are resistant to other purchasing trends. If those studies polled members of AH as their sample subset we’d almost unanimously swing the opposite way. Unfortunately AH is a bit of an echo chamber not just in the outside world but even within the gun and hunting communities.

Sometimes we need to step back, forget our own view/desires and look at things from different lateral points of view. If you really want to try to understand it, look at it from the 5k, 10k, and 50k foot views.

 

[oscar1975]

I'm waiting for Winchester to load the .243 Winchester Super Short Magnum and for some of that ammunition to arrive in Spain.

Óscar

 

[Flbt]

From the studies I’ve read and trends I’ve seen; No there are other factors causing it. It’s also not all price driven, though that is one of the factors.

Now I do believe certain industries and demographics/regions are less impacted by those factors. IMO I think the gun/hunting industry’s consumers are one that still clings to some of the old ways and are resistant to other purchasing trends. If those studies polled members of AH as their sample subset we’d almost unanimously swing the opposite way. Unfortunately AH is a bit of an echo chamber not just in the outside world but even within the gun and hunting communities.

Sometimes we need to step back, forget our own view/desires and look at things from different lateral points of view. If you really want to try to understand it, look at it from the 5k, 10k, and 50k foot views.

I have just all ways understud that the arms industry was different. At least to the last 20 or so years.
They especially Winchester would make 1 time a year runs for a lot of ammo
To keep the guns they sold shooting.
And I have the habit of buying no so popular cartridge to a point. Nothing completely exotic. The 33 Winchester was probably the most far out one I had.

 

[Flbt]

I have just all ways understud that the arms industry was different. At least to the last 20 or so years.
They especially Winchester would make 1 time a year runs for a lot of ammo
To keep the guns they sold shooting.
And I have the habit of buying no so popular cartridge to a point. Nothing completely exotic. The 33 Winchester was probably the most far out one I had.

But I have all ways been able to find my ammo mostly through big brands
But I will buy from small manufacturers.
Especially since I don’t reload.
But I have according to casual hunters that don’t know much past 270-30-06 a strang habit I buy ammo by the case.
My wife and I like the 6mm rem lacking a house fire there enough ammo for more than a life time of our hunting here.

 

[Flbt]

You mean the way everyone abandoned US brands and flocked to Walmart for Chinese brands? Or no wait, the way everyone finds the lowest price on the internet?

US customers have nearly zero brand loyalty. Everyone wanted cheap over well made and well supported. We proved it over and over.

Idk if that fits in the shooting
I know there a lot of brand loyalty there
Colt
Winchester
Browning
Fn
Ext I know people that look to there brand over any other if they have something that matches there needs
But it’s a 2 way street I saw colt with there modle 2000 9mm and double eagle
Turn colt men to s&w men quickly.
I had a uncle that would buy nothing but Winchester rifle ammo
And Perters shot shells until they were droped
That what I was talking about not mass market

 

[Flbt]

You mean the way everyone abandoned US brands and flocked to Walmart for Chinese brands? Or no wait, the way everyone finds the lowest price on the internet?

US customers have nearly zero brand loyalty. Everyone wanted cheap over well made and well supported. We proved it over and over.

Well the price does matter to a degree
Locally the Walmart price on a 94 was 156$
One of the gun shops had the same gun priced at 4 and some $ ( don’t remember because I could not afford to buy from him)

Needless to say he did not sell many 94 30-30
But the locals that went to him mostly bought browning weatherbey and high grade shotgun
And I agree and understand small shops must charge more.
But they sould not try and rape you

 

[akrifleman]

Well the price does matter to a degree
Locally the Walmart price on a 94 was 156$
One of the gun shops had the same gun priced at 4 and some $ ( don’t remember because I could not afford to buy from him)

Needless to say he did not sell many 94 30-30
But the locals that went to him mostly bought browning weatherbey and high grade shotgun
And I agree and understand small shops must charge more.
But they sould not try and rape you

Doesn't matter what their intentions are. Quantity is a major quality all it's own. When you can purchase and ship in such a mass, you can use your own fleet. The small store can't even stock it at a price the big box is profitable.

 

[Badboymelvin]

I get supply and demand, but I feel Winchester made a mistake by dropping the .458WM and .375H&H from their line. These 2 cartridges are still popular as far as bigger cartridges go...

Sure, it was nothing special, but it was the cheapest available (in my neck of the woods, anyway), and it was great for getting a rifle set up and getting familiar with it.

Also good for deer hunting, plus a good source of brass.

I feel Winchester could've at least kept these 2, and I bet PPU is making a killing selling their .375H&H ammo, as nearly everyone I know who has a .375H&H uses PPU ammo – if only for the brass.

Russ

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I have just all ways understud that the arms industry was different. At least to the last 20 or so years.
They especially Winchester would make 1 time a year runs for a lot of ammo
To keep the guns they sold shooting.
And I have the habit of buying no so popular cartridge to a point. Nothing completely exotic. The 33 Winchester was probably the most far out one I had.

If a business changes how they manufacture there’s got to be a first time for the change.

Maybe Winchester deactivates stuff off their website in the years or months they’re not making them? To me that would be counterproductive because it’d raise questions like this, and cause their customers who are loyal to look for a substitute option. Not sure about you but once I have a load that shoots and is zeroed I’m not changing. It’s why I purchase in case quantities and the same lot number. If I’m gonna rezero, I’m doing the same thing with that load. I can’t be 100% sure of what they’re doing since I don’t work for them but would wager on them being low velocity SKU’s and trimmed from the line to simplify production.