Anyone know what is up w/ Winchester Ammo's discontinued offerings?

[Flbt]

So what makes you claim that .338WM , .458WM are obsolete or becoming obsolete?

There may be a "new breed" , but the calibers being lauded by influencers are just "pigs in a poke" , there is a reason .358Win & .375Win have seen a resurgence , effectiveness in tough terrain with heavy vegetation. In the past 5yrs I've seen more of those travel through hunt camp than any of the other "new hotness". I mean hell, they rolled out "350 Legend" , spent untold $$$$$ on advertising & digital influence & it still can't measure up to 30-30 in terminal ballistics , on paper its close, but actual lead to meat, 30-30 still wins. Then they dreamnt up 6.8 western, which is just a shorter .270WSM , which admittedly, .270WSM is another redundancy .... but they developed 6.8 Western to reduce recoil?! What in the crap?! Bunch of dam sissys if they can't manage recoil from a .30 calber or under.
Here we are in a forum that promotes hunting quarry which requires effective BC / legit TB , but at the same time are dismissive of the blatant campaign of planned obsolescence.
I made this post hoping there would be credible insight, instead what I found was validation of what I have long feared.

The 350l is one of the few new cartridge that I have seen a use for.
Ar15 upper make for a cheap near 30-30 cartridge
Low recoil it has started a lot of new deer/ and hog hunters hear.
And it’s way better than a 223 for that job.
And then for what it was made for the stright wall cartridge states.
The 30-30 being better doesn’t matter if you can’t use it.

 

[Flbt]

"Standard" bolt face and short action length. The swede is a little off on both, slightly smaller at the base and slightly longer overall. It isnt just a barrel swap from a "standard" short action rifle like the cripplemoor.

It’s action length was

 

[Choupique]

It will work in a short action with most american factory loads but spec OAL is longer than a standard short action so it technically wont work. Sako uses their medium action for it, and it uses long follower mags in tikkas. Along with the bolt face being not .473, it makes the swede not a complete easy drop in for most american rifles.

I always felt like the swede should have been immensely more popular in America than it is, but we had the ought six and everything was a derivative of that in the pre-magnum days.

 

[Velo Dog]

The only people gaslighting consumers of guns and ammunition are consumers of guns and ammunition. Gotta have that new rifle, cartridge, hunting clothes, wristwatch, truck, etc.... Literally makes everyone "guilty" of being part of the demand for the supply.

That creates an "industry". If there is no demand, there is no industry. If the only cartridge on the entire planet was cartridge X, and you only had one or two of the same cartridge, there would only be remaining one company cranking out two choices part time. Why, no demand means no particular reason to even do business with you. You are forced to them, and they know it. How many millions and billions of dollars are spent on the best buggy whip? No one, because NOBODY still uses a horse and buggy. Those newfangled motor carriages took over.

The creation of a huge amount of choice in arms, cartridges, bullets, powders, etc... IS the industry, and would NOT exist according to your we only need one cartridge wishes. At no time in history has more boutique ammo ever been made, just perhaps not your favorite at a given moment.

Your new ammo wasn't built in 1893 or 1905. It was built "today". The machine dispassionately cares less how much emotional attachment you have to a piece of brass, and is easily capable of switching to some other emotional attachments in minutes, should the demand occur.

Your actual anger is that very few have voted with you, with their wallets and purchases. Quite a few more fine folks from this forum than the general public, but this small village stands alone. The masses are buying something else (and yet, the industry *still* manages to crank out the most obscure desires, just not on a full time basis).

No choices, no industry. No industry, no choices. The "machine" is why you have so many choices, and the forum upon which to be unhappy about those choices you disagree with.

Man, I hate it too sometimes when my favorite products are no longer available. But blaming the proliferation of cartridges is factually not true. The diversity and amount of ammo made per person is higher than any previous point in history.

Greetings akrifleman my fellow Alaskan,

Although I don’t completely agree with you on all points, indeed I do respect and welcome your opinion.

On that note, “Gaslighting” requires intent to mislead a person or persons.

Dictionary Version—> “The act or practice of misleading another person or persons, especially for one’s own advantage”.

It seems pretty much impossible that anyone would form intent to mislead themself.
But perhaps the emotional disorder known as “denial” is pretty close to someone intending to mislead or trick themself ?

Be that as it may, I maintain my position that, the gun manufacturers and ammunition companies are gaslighting a large number of consumers, particularly younger consumers.
This leaves many as victims of their own overly eager gullibility and faith in, “New is always better”.
(Bell bottom pants come to mind).

You wrote:
“Your actual anger is that very few have voted with you,” etc., etc.

My Response:
I’m not experiencing any “actual” anger, or even just plain old white bread anger.
***(More on experiencing anger vs disappointment, here shortly).
Meanwhile, in regards to voting, I didn’t realize we are holding an election but then, I’m not the brightest lightbulb on the Christmas Tree.
So, there IS that.

***When walking through any ammunition retail store to buy a box of live factory cartridges, “disappointment” definitely fits what I experience.
Finding only row after row of the newest “sales hype type” cartridges in abundance and Zero ammunition available for the familiar and perfectly adequate ones they have replaced, does not anger me.

Because I have been hand loading since the late 1960’s and have a healthy supply of brass and projectiles for my favorite cartridges, the sudden absence of so many formerly well established cartridges is in my case, disappointing, nothing beyond that.
It is very comparable to what I feel when a trout repeatedly rises to my presentation but refuses to take.
That is disappointment, definitely not anger, not even close.

With all that, I do agree with you on consumers foolishly buying unnecessary products.
IE: If the unwashed masses would stop falling for gun and ammunition maker’s carnival hawker style narratives, and just refuse to buy anything that duplicates what we already have, the industry would be forced to flood retail shelves with tried and true products.

I’ll shut my fly trap now.

If you’re ever down here in Los Anchorage and have a little time to kill, let me know, I will buy the first round.

Best Regards,
Velo Dog (Paul)

 

[Russ16]

Reload & you do not have to be reliant on factory ammo, purchase components in lots that work for your rifles in bulk, & assemble it when you need it . As i shoot 318 WR & 350 REM MAG i need to do this.

I agree. If you shoot older countries it behooves you to start reloading. But even then you’re at the mercy of bullet availability. But it is easier to stock up and store bullets longer than loaded ammunition.

 

[akrifleman]

Greetings akrifleman my fellow Alaskan,

Although I don’t completely agree with you on all points, indeed I do respect and welcome your opinion.

On that note, “Gaslighting” requires intent to mislead a person or persons.

Dictionary Version—> “The act or practice of misleading another person or persons, especially for one’s own advantage”.

It seems pretty much impossible that anyone would form intent to mislead themself.
But perhaps the emotional disorder known as “denial” is pretty close to someone intending to mislead or trick themself ?

Be that as it may, I maintain my position that, the gun manufacturers and ammunition companies are gaslighting a large number of consumers, particularly younger consumers.
This leaves many as victims of their own overly eager gullibility and faith in, “New is always better”.
(Bell bottom pants come to mind).

You wrote:
“Your actual anger is that very few have voted with you,” etc., etc.

My Response:
I’m not experiencing any “actual” anger, or even just plain old white bread anger.
***(More on experiencing anger vs disappointment, here shortly).
Meanwhile, in regards to voting, I didn’t realize we are holding an election but then, I’m not the brightest lightbulb on the Christmas Tree.
So, there IS that.

***When walking through any ammunition retail store to buy a box of live factory cartridges, “disappointment” definitely fits what I experience.
Finding only row after row of the newest “sales hype type” cartridges in abundance and Zero ammunition available for the familiar and perfectly adequate ones they have replaced, does not anger me.

Because I have been hand loading since the late 1960’s and have a healthy supply of brass and projectiles for my favorite cartridges, the sudden absence of so many formerly well established cartridges is in my case, disappointing, nothing beyond that.
It is very comparable to what I feel when a trout repeatedly rises to my presentation but refuses to take.
That is disappointment, definitely not anger, not even close.

With all that, I do agree with you on consumers foolishly buying unnecessary products.
IE: If the unwashed masses would stop falling for gun and ammunition maker’s carnival hawker style narratives, and just refuse to buy anything that duplicates what we already have, the industry would be forced to flood retail shelves with tried and true products.

I’ll shut my fly trap now.

If you’re ever down here in Los Anchorage and have a little time to kill, let me know, I will buy the first round.

Best Regards,
Velo Dog (Paul)

IMHO even in our old age, we still chase the shiny balls. True, Youngsters, the new hotness. Those of us not quite as young, those bits of nostalgia that we think of as from a time when things were done and built right (rightly or wrongly). I'm convinced we have located the enemy, and it is us. The industry only provides what we most crave (in volume).

My mistake, disappointment would have been a better description.

The "vote" I was making reference to, is the one with our wallets. Trust me, that election is happening ;-)

I'll be honored to buy the second round. I keep thinking when things slow down after moose season, but before the banquet season, a valley meet at an appropriate water hole would be most welcome.

 

[Velo Dog]

Long range loads for the 6.5x55 loaded like the 6.5 cm
Can't.
Historic specifications. You now have a "new" cartridge. Somebody takes a "modern" loading and blows up an old gun. Lawsuits abound. Doesn't even need to be true.

I agree with you on that.
Politicians and Lawyers are the wrecking crew of this country.

Even so there is a flicker of hope in that, it appears as if Hornady’s “Superformance” line of ammunition is showing promise toward more up to date velocity in the 6.5x55 cartridge, with 140 grain spitzers (2735 fps from a 24” barrel).

IMHO even in our old age, we still chase the shiny balls. True, Youngsters, the new hotness. Those of us not quite as young, those bits of nostalgia that we think of as from a time when things were done and built right (rightly or wrongly). I'm convinced we have located the enemy, and it is us. The industry only provides what we most crave (in volume).

My mistake, disappointment would have been a better description.

The "vote" I was making reference to, is the one with our wallets. Trust me, that election is happening ;-)

I'll be honored to buy the second round. I keep thinking when things slow down after moose season, but before the banquet season, a valley meet at an appropriate water hole would be most welcome.

I am hip to that jive Daddyo, count me in.
Being as I’m retired, during most days I am available.
And, I shall look forward to your triumphant arrival down here in this wacky city.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Greetings akrifleman my fellow Alaskan,

Although I don’t completely agree with you on all points, indeed I do respect and welcome your opinion.

On that note, “Gaslighting” requires intent to mislead a person or persons.

Dictionary Version—> “The act or practice of misleading another person or persons, especially for one’s own advantage”.

It seems pretty much impossible that anyone would form intent to mislead themself.
But perhaps the emotional disorder known as “denial” is pretty close to someone intending to mislead or trick themself ?

Be that as it may, I maintain my position that, the gun manufacturers and ammunition companies are gaslighting a large number of consumers, particularly younger consumers.
This leaves many as victims of their own overly eager gullibility and faith in, “New is always better”.
(Bell bottom pants come to mind).

You wrote:
“Your actual anger is that very few have voted with you,” etc., etc.

My Response:
I’m not experiencing any “actual” anger, or even just plain old white bread anger.
***(More on experiencing anger vs disappointment, here shortly).
Meanwhile, in regards to voting, I didn’t realize we are holding an election but then, I’m not the brightest lightbulb on the Christmas Tree.
So, there IS that.

***When walking through any ammunition retail store to buy a box of live factory cartridges, “disappointment” definitely fits what I experience.
Finding only row after row of the newest “sales hype type” cartridges in abundance and Zero ammunition available for the familiar and perfectly adequate ones they have replaced, does not anger me.

Because I have been hand loading since the late 1960’s and have a healthy supply of brass and projectiles for my favorite cartridges, the sudden absence of so many formerly well established cartridges is in my case, disappointing, nothing beyond that.
It is very comparable to what I feel when a trout repeatedly rises to my presentation but refuses to take.
That is disappointment, definitely not anger, not even close.

With all that, I do agree with you on consumers foolishly buying unnecessary products.
IE: If the unwashed masses would stop falling for gun and ammunition maker’s carnival hawker style narratives, and just refuse to buy anything that duplicates what we already have, the industry would be forced to flood retail shelves with tried and true products.

I’ll shut my fly trap now.

If you’re ever down here in Los Anchorage and have a little time to kill, let me know, I will buy the first round.

Best Regards,
Velo Dog (Paul)

Paul, some also has to do with the extremely thin margins on guns and ammo. When the average customer is over the age of 40, and has a surplus of guns, optics, and accessories and the only real thing they need to buy is the consumable like ammo, stores need to target and get those customers to buy something new, or convince newer customers the shinny new thing is “New and Improved” like your Tide, to get a bigger dollar spend compared to just a $40-100/box on ammo. Wouldn’t have nearly the number of dealers if they just survived on ammo because everyone could use their granddad’s old 30-06.

30-06 ammo still sells but the number of 30-06 guns being bought today is extremely small compared to other calibers.

 

[akrifleman]

I agree with you on that.
Politicians and Lawyers are the wrecking crew of this country.

Amen.

Even so there is a flicker of hope in that, it appears as if Hornady’s “Superformance” line of ammunition is showing promise toward more up to date velocity in the 6.5x55 cartridge, with 140 grain spitzers (2735 fps from a 24” barrel).

Buffalo Bore's 38-55/375 Win stuff is wicked, and still holding to historic pressure. Several older cartridges have benefited from these new powders.

Right or wrong (and I do have a soft spot for the Swede), I think that with the Peak Alloy now pushing the 6.5 Creed into 3000fps and above territory, it won't ever get past novelty in this country.

 

[Xpraetor]

The 350l is one of the few new cartridge that I have seen a use for.
Ar15 upper make for a cheap near 30-30 cartridge
Low recoil it has started a lot of new deer/ and hog hunters hear.
And it’s way better than a 223 for that job.
And then for what it was made for the stright wall cartridge states.
The 30-30 being better doesn’t matter if you can’t use it.

There in lies the rub, they "can't use it" because The People in that state allowed some ridiculous infringement. The apathy is pathetic, development of new loads due to a legitimate *need is understandable - example .300BlkOut - but to appease some arbitrary "case wall design" is freakin' nonsense.

 

[akrifleman]

There in lies the rub, they "can't use it" because The People in that state allowed some ridiculous infringement. The apathy is pathetic, development of new loads due to a legitimate *need is understandable - example .300BlkOut - but to appease some arbitrary "case wall design" is freakin' nonsense.

That is the history of most turn of the century cartridges. See Colonization.
Most historic cartridges were a result of cartridges created to get around legal ramifications or military needs and restrictions. Particularly where the military was afraid locals owning military cartridges would revolt.

 

[Xpraetor]

That is the history of most turn of the century cartridges. See Colonization.
Most historic cartridges were a result of cartridges created to get around legal ramifications or military needs and restrictions. Particularly where the military was afraid locals owning military cartridges would revolt.

"Colonization" & the european mindset is supposed to be irrelevant in the USofA, being that it was founded by rebellious ruffians ..... I again assert my critique of ridiculous infringement due to apathy

 

[Flbt]

There in lies the rub, they "can't use it" because The People in that state allowed some ridiculous infringement. The apathy is pathetic, development of new loads due to a legitimate *need is understandable - example .300BlkOut - but to appease some arbitrary "case wall design" is freakin' nonsense.

Not getting into the making of the laws.
But it’s a legit new cartridge for the laws.


It seems like everywhere has stupid laws
We have some wma that limite you to shotgun/ handgun or ml you can’t use a rifle
But I can a contender in 30-30 or a bfr in 350l

Other wma have a any center fire rule yep you can hunt deer with a 25acp

 

[akrifleman]

Not getting into the making of the laws.
But it’s a legit new cartridge for the laws.


It seems like everywhere has stupid laws
We have some wma that limite you to shotgun/ handgun or ml you can’t use a rifle
But I can a contender in 30-30 or a bfr in 350l

Other wma have a any center fire rule yep you can hunt deer with a 25acp

Exactly. Can't use anything bigger than a 10 gauge anymore as "punt" guns are illegal. Most hunters do not want "commercial over-harvest" and agree they shouldn't be used.

Many places have minimum caliber restrictions, for big game. Some places have maximum caliber or cartridge. Everywhere, worldwide there are firearms laws. Everywhere, every industry works around laws. Just like all of human history.

 

[Xpraetor]

Exactly. Can't use anything bigger than a 10 gauge anymore as "punt" guns are illegal. Most hunters do not want "commercial over-harvest" and agree they shouldn't be used.
View attachment 777182
Many places have minimum caliber restrictions, for big game. Some places have maximum caliber or cartridge. Everywhere, worldwide there are firearms laws. Everywhere, every industry works around laws. Just like all of human history.

My comment did/does not call into question "caliber" restrictions, see my previous comments, nor does it call into question statuets/laws that are sensible. What I critiqued is an arbitrary law that restricts a cartridge/caliber on the envelope/brass/case/design based on a shoulder or necked down size being somehow sinister. Once again, the "straight case" law(s) is absolutly ridiculous.

 

[Flbt]

My comment did/does not call into question "caliber" restrictions, see my previous comments, nor does it call into question statuets/laws that are sensible. What I critiqued is an arbitrary law that restricts a cartridge/caliber on the envelope/brass/case/design based on a shoulder or necked down size being somehow sinister. Once again, the "straight case" law(s) is absolutly ridiculous.

I don’t think they consider a necked cartridge sinister.
I believe the point was most stright wall cartridge dropped quicker ie less point blank range

 

[akrifleman]

My comment did/does not call into question "caliber" restrictions, see my previous comments, nor does it call into question statuets/laws that are sensible. What I critiqued is an arbitrary law that restricts a cartridge/caliber on the envelope/brass/case/design based on a shoulder or necked down size being somehow sinister. Once again, the "straight case" law(s) is absolutly ridiculous.

The problem is that what is sensible to all voters in a state, isn't going to be matched by your ideal. So, it entirely makes sense that those living under what many of us view as draconian laws get the best they can. But, you've changed your argument entirely. You said that the new straight walls were pointless, and now your argument is that the law is ridiculous (which most here would agree it is).

However, and your exact words were "As for 350 Legend , it is evidence # 1 of "market manipulation" , as it was supposedly developed to appease some ridiculous law = manipulation." Market didn't manipulate the law, the market responded to the law.

I don't care what you assert, there are always going to be laws that get in the way of "common sense". Why are you begrudging the hunters who hate those nonsensical laws having to obtain the best alternative within the law? Do you really think those consumers voted for the law? Newsflash, we haven't been the rebellious ruffians during your entire lifetime. The city folk have out populated and out voted for over a century, despite billions of dollars spent trying to educate them on what freedom means. The greatest generation was the last generation to practice it. That isn't apathy, that is open conflict between the two sides. If there is any apathy to be had, it is what the cost of freedom is by all the folks who have never gotten food from any way but a grocery store.

 

[Xpraetor]

The problem is that what is sensible to all voters in a state, isn't going to be matched by your ideal. So, it entirely makes sense that those living under what many of us view as draconian laws get the best they can. But, you've changed your argument entirely. You said that the new straight walls were pointless, and now your argument is that the law is ridiculous (which most here would agree it is).

However, and your exact words were "As for 350 Legend , it is evidence # 1 of "market manipulation" , as it was supposedly developed to appease some ridiculous law = manipulation." Market didn't manipulate the law, the market responded to the law.

I don't care what you assert, there are always going to be laws that get in the way of "common sense". Why are you begrudging the hunters who hate those nonsensical laws having to obtain the best alternative within the law? Do you really think those consumers voted for the law? Newsflash, we haven't been the rebellious ruffians during your entire lifetime. The city folk have out populated and out voted for over a century, despite billions of dollars spent trying to educate them on what freedom means. The greatest generation was the last generation to practice it. That isn't apathy, that is open conflict between the two sides. If there is any apathy to be had, it is what the cost of freedom is by all the folks who have never gotten food from any way but a grocery store.

I did not "change my argument" , you failed to understand that my argument & aggrevation is the law is stupid & so is the claimed "solution" , when the solution should be to repeal the law.... as for the disconnect that exists with suburbanites/urbanites you are spot on.
However, the cause & effect goes back to what I typed several comments up , the problem is there are less hunters & fisherman, the "political battle" against the charlatan environmental alarmists is being lost.

 

[akrifleman]

I did not "change my argument" , you failed to understand that my argument & aggrevation is the law is stupid & so is the claimed "solution" , when the solution should be to repeal the law.... as for the disconnect that exists with suburbanites/urbanites you are spot on.
However, the cause & effect goes back to what I typed several comments up , the problem is there are less hunters & fisherman, the "political battle" against the charlatan environmental alarmists is being lost.

Then it is an conjunction fallacy (assumption that an outcome simultaneously satisfying multiple conditions is more probable than an outcome satisfying a single one of them) and a reductive argument (oversimplified into fallacy). The law will not change, it is unrealistic.

The only probable outcome then, of a condition where the changing of the law is improbable to the near point of zero, is something else has to change. This means products will happen to conform to this or any law. It isn't a "claimed" solution, it is confirm-ably conforming to law, and a product people are purchasing based on the constraints of law.

The cause and effect of less hunters and fishermen voting against the majority, is absolutely the reason for the law. This trend only reinforces the improbability of the law disappearing, and reinforcement of the demand by the consumer on industry.

 

[akrifleman]

I did not "change my argument" , you failed to understand that my argument & aggrevation is the law is stupid & so is the claimed "solution" , when the solution should be to repeal the law.... as for the disconnect that exists with suburbanites/urbanites you are spot on.
However, the cause & effect goes back to what I typed several comments up , the problem is there are less hunters & fisherman, the "political battle" against the charlatan environmental alarmists is being lost.

I'm also not sure it is being lost. It has been a very very long hard slog... but things like the NFA tax was repealed, and more and more states are asserting carry laws.

Respectfully, that is the opposite of apathetic. We are outnumbered and still slowly winning hearts and minds through sound education and showing actual numbers. But, as a minority... these things take a very long time and a ton of work on the ground. I've been a part of hundreds of the millions volunteer hours people from various nonprofits in the industry have put into this.