How much freedom does the client have?

Ruark · Nov 14, 2014

I've really enjoyed reading this forum, and appreciate the warm welcomes to my introduction.

I'd like to ask a question about the client's "freedom," and by that I mean what the client is allowed to do, or rather, how much authority the PH has over what the client does. If I ever go on that African dream hunt, that would be important to me. Suppose, for example, on the DG (buff, lion, elephant) I wanted to:

1. Make the final approach up front, alone, maybe with a gunbearer, and everybody else 15-20 yds. back
2. Take them ONLY in a charge.
3. Use a red dot sight, no scope (wouldn't want a scope on a charge, anyway)
4. In the event it's wounded, track and finish it myself. Same as #1.

No rhino, they're too rare, and I'll leave charging leopards to younger blokes....

Is a hunt like this possible? Would a PH allow it?

Cheers,
Ruark

BRICKBURN · Nov 14, 2014

1. Pay the PH three or four million so he can immediately retire and you should be fine.
2. Call Mark Sullivan.
3. Use what rifle site you like.
4. Again, pay three or four million so he can immediately retire and you should be fine.

In all seriousness.
It is the PH's job to direct your hunt and he is responsible for your safety. (It's the law in most countries)
I have not even seen very experienced hunters i.e. hundreds of Buffalo going into a DG or otherwise hunt alone without a PH.
Do you sky dive without a parachute?

You will be able to be taking the first shot and also to finish your animal.
If safety becomes a factor all bets are off.

Ruark · Nov 14, 2014

BRICKBURN said:
I have not even seen very experienced hunters i.e. hundreds of Buffalo going into a DG or otherwise hunt alone without a PH.
Do you sky dive without a parachute?

I didn't mean completely alone, I meant with the PH a few yards behind. Seems like in most of the African hunting videos I've seen, it's 4 or 5 guys standing up there rubbing elbows. That's the last thing in the world I'd want.

-Ruark

PHOENIX PHIL · Nov 14, 2014

1. Not likely. One of the reasons a PH is there with you is to ensure as much as possible you're taking the right animal. Right being defined as sex, size or whatever. But a PH or someone with DG experience (not me) should answer this further.

2. If that's what you want, then I'd look up Mark Sullivan. Outside of Mark, I don't know of a PH who would intentionally take his client into a charge situation. There are a number of reasons for this, not the least of which I would think is you're asking the PH to trust that you will be able to handle this situation and put the animal down. If you can't it will be the PH who now has to handle it, preventing injury or death to you as well as himself. Keep in mind that this PH will have known you for perhaps as long as a few days.

3. Can't see where that would be a problem at all.

4. I can't see the PH allowing this either. As I understand it, it is his/her professional responsibility to ensure as much as possible that their client doesn't go home wrapped in bandages or in a box.

BRICKBURN · Nov 14, 2014

Ruark said:
I didn't mean completely alone, I meant with the PH a few yards behind. Seems like in most of the African hunting videos I've seen, it's 4 or 5 guys standing up there rubbing elbows. That's the last thing in the world I'd want.

-Ruark

You want your PH rubbing your elbow and damn you want the best tracker on the planet in front of you no matter what. So there are always three of you at minimum.

Easiest way is do a good shot in the first place and you don't need a follow up in Africa file.

It will all come down to safety.

Scott Slough · Nov 14, 2014

I am trying to not say this flippantly, but if you find a PH that will do 2 please let the rest of us know so we can steer clear ... intentionally provoking a charge is not ethical. If you are unaware of the controversy surrounding Mark Sullivan, please do yourself a favor and read the following thread on AH

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/mark-sullivan-kicked-out-of-sci.1848/

Ruark · Nov 14, 2014

I appreciate the honest feedback. Thanks.

peras · Nov 14, 2014

You received honest advice, do not worry your PH will not shoot if it is not absolutely necessesary, the hunt is yours.

Hank2211 · Nov 14, 2014

Ruark, I echo the sentiments of others. Though might qualify first and third question answers a bit. If you are talking about non-dangerous game, your PH might be willing to let you go the last bit on your own, provided that he is confident you know which animal to shoot and that you can't really make a mistake. My guess is that if he hasn't seen you shoot, even there he won't. It's at least a possibility.

But here's an example of what can go wrong. Let's say he were to point out a nice gemsbok in a small herd, and let you go up alone, and then because the animals moved around, you shoot the wrong one - let's say a female, and a pregnant one at that, who wears that (I've been in the same situation and they can be darn hard to tell apart)? Even if you say you are prepared to, that won't help him with the landowner/parks department. He's ultimately responsible.

Next example. You know which animal, and you have it in your sights. But because you're looking through the sights - even a red dot - you don't see that another animal has come in behind. You shoot and get two for the price of one. Again, even if you're prepared to pay, the PH would be the one to ultimately wear it.

I think if a PH were to allow you to do this on your own, particularly with dangerous game, he's putting his license at risk (assuming he has one!). And if he's prepared to do that, he's not a PH you want.

As for a charge, there are very few sure ways of inducing a charge reliably other than intentionally wounding a dangerous animal. I try not to impose my view of hunting ethics on others, but I'd make an exception for this situation.

Tracking a wounded animal ditto. Ethics dictate you find it a put it down as soon as possible. PH will want to ensure that happens.

Red dot sight - for dangerous game - I'd say if you show the PH you can hit something with it at 100 yards, he'd be fine with it. I've seen some on PH rifles recently.

Hope this helps.

James.Grage · Nov 14, 2014

Ruark said:
1. Make the final approach up front, alone, maybe with a gunbearer, and everybody else 15-20 yds. back
PH is responsible for your well being and he has to be positive you are shooting the right animal, therefore it is not going to happen. If you shoot 2 animals and you only have one license, what do you think will happen. or you take a cow instead of a bull what do you think will happen. your PH is responsibe could lose his license. .
2. Take them ONLY in a charge.
No PH will knowingly put you in a charge situation. in tight cover you may be number 4 if they let you in the group. being a client does not allow you to direct what is going on, you could be sent back to the truck.
3. Use a red dot sight, no scope (wouldn't want a scope on a charge, anyway)
When you arrive in camp you will usually go to a make shift range and your rifle accuracy will be checked by you. what optics you use if any is your business, however your ability at the range, will let the PH know how close he will need to get you for a shot. having QD rings on your scope is again your call, however the changing the gun on the fly is difficult. If you are looking for a charge then search the internet and look for PH's who have had charges and book with them to increase your chances. there have been a few unprovoked charges and then there are wounded followup charges. after you tell your potential PH what you want to do see if they will take you.
4. In the event it's wounded, track and finish it myself. Same as #1.
Follow up will put you further back inthe line up on followup, if they allow you to be there. you being the client and are to be protected at all cost. A PH would be finished in the business if he let you do your own follow up. heck he may be in jail when it is all over.

No rhino, they're too rare, and I'll leave charging leopards to younger blokes....

Is a hunt like this possible? NO, it may become that way due to poor shooting on your part, and if you have demonstrated poor shooting you may be sent to the truck, and the PH and trackers will clean up your mess.

Would a PH allow it? NO not knowingly going into it. However, a hunter with poor shooting skills may have starting something even the PH has difficulty finishing.

Cheers,
Ruark

K-man · Nov 14, 2014

The reason you are shoulder to shoulder is because you don't want his .470 nitro double going off 2 yards behind you.

Code4 · Nov 14, 2014

Not much.

BnC 04 · Nov 14, 2014

You might be screaming for them guys standing 20 yards behind you if and when things go South...Not a chance in h*ll there is an outfitter that would support all you are asking for or atleast shouldn't be IMO. Safety first is the standard.

Bsums · Nov 14, 2014

Ruark said:
I've really enjoyed reading this forum, and appreciate the warm welcomes to my introduction.

I'd like to ask a question about the client's "freedom," and by that I mean what the client is allowed to do, or rather, how much authority the PH has over what the client does. If I ever go on that African dream hunt, that would be important to me. Suppose, for example, on the DG (buff, lion, elephant) I wanted to:

1. Make the final approach up front, alone, maybe with a gunbearer, and everybody else 15-20 yds. back
2. Take them ONLY in a charge.
3. Use a red dot sight, no scope (wouldn't want a scope on a charge, anyway)
4. In the event it's wounded, track and finish it myself. Same as #1.

No rhino, they're too rare, and I'll leave charging leopards to younger blokes....

Is a hunt like this possible? Would a PH allow it?

Cheers,
Ruark

1. The PH is going to stay with you, its pretty much standard and required cause its for your own good and the animals. Maybe on plains game were the animal is by itself, but if its in a herd and you accidentally shoot the wrong one you can cause your PH to loose his license. On DG they will stay right their with you, for your safety mainly. If you miss and a lion, buffalo, elephant, jaguar etc gets you, you will probably be dead before he can get close to enough to take a shot with a lower chance of hitting you. You also wouldn't want him shooting over/around you if you miss and the animal charges.

2. No, you do not only take an animal in a charge. That is just foolish and you are just asking to die. No PH will agree to this. A lion can run 50mph and generally charge under 20yds. If you can be reliable consistently at that distance and speed then you are probably the greatest hunter.

3. Red dot sights are perfectly fine and many people prefer them.

4. Again No, they won't let you wonder off into the African wilderness. They would loose their license if they did this. If you come up on the wounded animal its not an issue if you stand a couple feet in front of them but your not going to be alone. Plus if you miss your shots the PH needs to finish the animal as they aren't going to let it go on suffering. The non essential personal will hang back, observers, etc when coming upon the animal. But the tracker and PH will be next or right behind.

The shooting of an animal etc is all up to you, but they aren't going to let you be by yourself. They will loose their livelihood if they let you go off by yourself.

Sorry if I came off a bit harsh.

CAustin · Nov 14, 2014

Your best interest is the job of the PH. You can ask for these things but a good one is going to say no. If you have never done this before you have no real idea of how you will react. Freeze up n front of a pissed off Cape buffalo and someone is going to get hurt.....maybe even several people. Now my PH never rubbed elbows with me until we hunted the lioness, his rifle was at the ready but as I made very accurate shots he had no need to shoot at all. But frankly the man hunted plains game with me the year before , he was confident that I could hit the target, but he had no idea how I would react to an animal that could kill us all. Take your dream hunt and discuss what you would like with the PH but always remember you must follow his instructions.

jeff · Nov 14, 2014

This maybe slightly off thread as it doesn't pertain to DG hunting, if so I apologize. Ph's differ a lot I've had a couple that were very controlling and wanted to be right beside me all the time, others that put me in a tree stand and sat a hundred yards away in a rifle hide to observe, and also let me do my own stalks after we spotted game, or dropped me off and let me still hunt down to the next road where they picked me up. Its quite common on several of the archery only outfits to drop you at the hide with a radio and instructions as to what's allowed. These were all archery plains game hunts and not DG. Some of the hunts with more freedom were great. It all depends on the clients ability and what is comfortable. Some PH's think the law demands them to be at your elbow and others think that if they're close by and overseeing it that's fine. I've also noticed that after you hunt a few days and they get to know you, that things relax a bit. Also they might put a tracker in the blind if they're short on PHs so that's probably not really legal to the letter of the law either. Just some observations from my hunts in Namibia and SA.

ChrisT · Nov 15, 2014

Ruark said:
I've really enjoyed reading this forum, and appreciate the warm welcomes to my introduction.

I'd like to ask a question about the client's "freedom," and by that I mean what the client is allowed to do, or rather, how much authority the PH has over what the client does. If I ever go on that African dream hunt, that would be important to me. Suppose, for example, on the DG (buff, lion, elephant) I wanted to:

1. Make the final approach up front, alone, maybe with a gunbearer, and everybody else 15-20 yds. back
2. Take them ONLY in a charge.
3. Use a red dot sight, no scope (wouldn't want a scope on a charge, anyway)
4. In the event it's wounded, track and finish it myself. Same as #1.

No rhino, they're too rare, and I'll leave charging leopards to younger blokes....

Is a hunt like this possible? Would a PH allow it?

Cheers,
Ruark

Please do not see this as a personal attack on you or your preferred hunting methods. These are just a few observations from someone who has been at the receiving end of a charge or two...

There are a few important things to consider in the scenario you've sketched...

I believe it is any ethical hunter's responsibility to kill his quarry as quickly and humanely as possible. Shooting at a moving animal as opposed to one that is standing still, is calm and unaware of your presence increases your chances of wounding the animal exponentially.
Provoking a charge by a dangerous animal means you're intentionally creating a situation where you need to shoot at a moving target and you're intentionally increasing the risk of wounding that animal. Nothing personal but this is in my view irresponsible. It is not only dangerous to yourself but also those who are with you - whether they're standing next to you or 15 yards behind you...
Ask yourself the question: "How would you feel if that elephant that you wounded in a provoked charge decided to bypass you and stomp the Tracker, PH or your wife to death?" I'm not trying to give you the 101 on hunting ethics here - just trying to put things into perspective.
Why would an ethical hunter intentionally increase the likelihood of wounding an animal?

As PH's we have a legal and professional responsibility to safeguard our clients at all times and not create unnecessarily dangerous situations that could put our clients at risk. Provoking charges puts our own, our clients and others around us' lives at risk.

Allowing clients to walk up to a dangerous animal alone alone (even with us only 15 yards behind) to provoke a charge and shoot at the charging animal puts our own lives, the client's life and others partaking in the hunt at risk. It also puts people in nearby communities' lives at risk because that wounded animal may well decide to run and end up in or near some local village where it starts killing innocent people because of the tremendous pain inflicted by that 500gr bullet lodged in its cheek and associated increased aggressive behaviour.

Or that wounded elephant may run into one of the surrounding National Parks that you're not allowed to enter to go finish the job (with or without a PH) and you might end up leaving an injured animal to die a slow and painful death....

I don't think you need to worry too much about point 4 if you found a PH who were willing to let you hunt the way you described... It's highly unlikely you'll get the opportunity to go "finish the job"...

KMG Hunting Safaris · Nov 15, 2014

Ruark,
Sir, with all due respect, I believe that you yearn for this rush, because you have never been in the situation of facing any of the big 5 on foot. It is a great feeling when everything goes right, the high fives after dropping the animal mere yards away, it all looks great.
If us outfitters could bottle that rush of a charge and sell it as a package, still guaranteeing the hunter's safety, we'd be wealthy men. (Others have tried and come close to achieving this, but their day will come)
I do not wish a charge on anyone. It's NOT a nice situation to be in.

I wish you the best of luck. Stay safe.

slad68 · Nov 15, 2014

Ruark said:
2. Take them ONLY in a charge.

Ruark with all due respect, a charge is the last place you want to be, especially alone, I don't believe you have ever been there.
Those hunting videos you watch, most are provoked charges and there is more than two guns involved, a lot of editing goes into that clip before it goes on to the disc.

Ruark · Nov 15, 2014

I appreciate all your input, and I apologize for taking your time. This is a question that's been on my mind for, actually, many years, but until I found this forum, I never had the opportunity to directly ask African PHs. The marvels of the internet, eh?!

I guess what I'm trying to do is re-create some of the scenarios I was fascinated with as a younger bloke, reading about J.A. Hunter or Karamojo Bell dropping charging beasts left and right until their gun barrels were red hot. I remember back in the late 50s, a wealthy local oilman went on some big safari, came back to town and showed movies of his trip in a local hotel. We went to see it. Remember, this was in the 50s; the films were grainy and of course in B&W, but they were very real. He took down those same three: elephant, lion and buff, all in charges, all close enough to fog your glasses. I was 8 or 9 years old at the time, and when it was over, it took me a while to put my eyes back in their sockets and start breathing again.

But those are all good points, e.g. about a wounded animal whipping around and running to a populated area and becoming a danger to the local citizenry. Of course, my knee-jerk reaction is something like, "awwww, yeah, but I wouldn't miss..." but I won't be that naive. Anybody can miss. You have graciously clarified the issues with a "charges only" approach. I hear you!

But at the same time, doesn't standing off with a scope and sticks go too far the other way, reducing the danger to virtually zero? I'm afraid I might feel a twinge of regret afterwards, and I say that being a former 300WM benchrest shooter and bowhunter. Perhaps there's some middle ground in there somewhere.

Thanks again. I greatly appreciate and respect your comments and knowledge and read it very closely.

- Ruark

How much freedom does the client have?

Ruark

BRICKBURN

Ruark

PHOENIX PHIL

BRICKBURN

Scott Slough

Ruark

peras

Hank2211

James.Grage

K-man

Code4

BnC 04

Bsums

CAustin

jeff

ChrisT

KMG Hunting Safaris

slad68

Ruark

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