How much freedom does the client have?

[slad68]

Bossie, are you still wearing those pants? Well done

Peter I had them washed and washed and washed, got all the shit out but not the smell so I donated them Ha Ha Ha Ha.

 

[jeff]

Thanks for sharing!

 

[fairgame]

Ruark,

You can do pretty much as you please during your safari. Your PH will offer you the best possible advice depending on circumstance. An extra set of eyes and another big stick is always handy in tight situations.

Just be careful what you wish for.

 

[jand]

This thread reminds me of a Belgian client who hunted Lioness with me in the early 90's. If the following did not actually happen to me personally I would not believe it. This is not trash talking a hunter , as no one here would know who it is and he is long since died.

A bit of an odd ball , he set all kinds of pre requisites for the hunt. Firstly he would only shoot a lion on foot , secondly , it had to be closer than 40 yards and lastly I am not allowed to shoot under ANY circumstances. I was a young , bright eyed and bushy tailed , full of piss and vinegar PH , and took the challenge. Besides , I really needed the business.

He arrived with a small 18 x 12 x 6 inch brown cardboard suitcase ( like we used at school in the old days ) , with a very thick chain around it with a big padlock on it.... And off course his rifle , a 45-70.... He looked like Mr.Bean to boot.

This is a long story but , to cut to the chase , when we eventually got the Lions on foot at very short range he shot a lioness in the mouth from the front , she summersaulted and luckily ran away from us. The other Lions scattered. He shot her again crab running away from us at an angle , but not before he grabbed my rifle barrel ( which was pointing at the cat ) and screaming not to shoot.... Two shots later the cat is in its death throws biting everything around it , as cats do. Mr. Bean throws down his rifle and out comes the bowie knife ! He wants to stab the thing to death !!! A struggle between myself and the knife wielding Mr. Bean evolved which , thinking about it later , had to scare the living daylights out of my poor tracker -- I have my rifle in my right hand , I have a struggling and cussing Mr. Bean by his shirt at the shoulder with my left hand, I'm watching the cat intently go through its ( hopefully ) finals and Mr. Bean is yelling at me and trying to get free of my vice grip on him while swinging his knife around. !

The cat died , I let him go and he ran to it. He saw that it was dead , and he was really upset with me , foaming at the mouth. My French vocabulary really increased in leaps and bounds right there..

After calming him down , taking pictures , and having a somewhat normal conversation with him , it turned out he was terminally ill and , if anything , he would rather die in Africa ... You had to feel for the man.

So to answer your question Ruark , you have a lot of freedom on a hunt. It is your hunt. If you follow your PH's advise it will be more enjoyable to you and you will be safer and more successful. He will do anything and everything to make your hunting dream come true. He will however not allow you to commit suicide on his watch by doing stupid things and costing him his License and livelihood in the process.

The hunter returned to Belgium , faxing me immediately upon his arrival , and requesting a Buffalo hunt asap. I respectfully declined.

 

[enysse]

Jan, I feel sorry for you, that must have been hard to deal with as a young PH.

 

[jand]

Jan, I feel sorry for you, that must have been hard to deal with as a young PH.

Scared the hell out of me !

 

[DCN]

Read Death in the Long Grass by Peter Capstick and you might reconsider.

 

[Amon458]

Not to sound dumb but why is provoking a charge unethical since you are giving the animal a chance to fight back? I hope I am never in a charge situation but am curious as to the morality of the do's and do nots.

 

[K-man]

I am sure others have more reasons than this, but a rushed shot at a moving unwounded animal is a recipe for disaster and can also result in you, the P.H. , or a tracker getting hurt. You also have a good chance to wound the animal, which should be avoided always. A quick clean ethical shot that dispatches the animal quickly is always a hunter's duty and goal.

 

[ActionBob]

Look at these guys... the client can't hit the side of a barn, throws cigarettes on the ground... they shot that elephant full of more holes than a slice of bread. I don't necessarily hold it against the PH; I realize they can't cherry-pick their clients. But I gotta admit, I winced when I watched this.

This is the PH and tracker I hunted with. My first shot on my elephant was closer, 19 or 20 yards... but i was not offered the sticks. And I admit it was 2" back, side brain, dropped front first.... But I was reloaded and ready to shoot again by the time Quinn said reload... I just wanted to get another shot in as insurance whether it was going to move or not! The second went through the back of the neck and made a real mess inside the chest cavity.... We also had another bull on the other side of the bushes to worry about. So could not immiediately close in and it was laying in tall grass so no clear view of the head. This all moves quickly but slows down in the moment, if you know what I mean... if you don't, you have not expierianced the clarity such moments can bring you into and you are missing something. So it was really just moments, the other bull moved off, we closed about half the distance and I put one more in the top of thead... Exaxtly like Quinn was trying to get the guy in the video to do. I put in 3 shots but the bull never moved after the first... But dammit insurance is, well insurance.

That is Quinn's Merkel 500NE and it sure looked to me like he had also shot at that retreating elephant but it looks edited out. Maybe I'm wrong? In my experience Quinn is not going to shoot your animal unless he really feels he needs to and if questionable might even ask. He is young yet but I think he knows elephants well.

I would say it is very difficult for a client to gain experience shooting elephants! Not something many of us can get much real life experience at! I think what I did right was to hunt with my 375 for PG first... And then when I decided to get a bigger gun for elephant, I bought the exact same model in a 416. And practiced rapid shooting both off sticks and off hand at 100, 50, qnd 25 yards.... in fact had to explain myself at the range why I had targets up everywhere. A guy seemed to think I was hogging the range. One thing that I would have liked, in hind sight, is to have been offered the oppertunity and advice on practice aiming at live elephants when we had the oppertunities.

I consider it a real privalage to have the opportunity to hunt DG. And recognize there is a real possibilty that I might screw up, but pray to God, I don't (and practice to help those prayers be answered, after all God helps those who help themselves!) And I am grateful for the opportunity of any "easy" shot presented. Then also keep in mind that my number one goal on Safari is to not cause any person getting killed!

 

[ActionBob]

Peter I had them washed and washed and washed, got all the shit out but not the smell so I donated them Ha Ha Ha Ha.

That must be why most PH's wear brown shorts... Lesson learned?

 

[ActionBob]

It makes great video to show that perfect brain shot, but I bet more times than not that shot goes wrong. The heart/lung shot is always a sure bet.

I talked to Quinn about this and he said he only allowed a heart lung shot once and because the client requested it. He said the elephant ran 150 yards, got amoungst the rest of the herd, laid down and died slowly, and it took something like 4 hours to drive the herd off and required he shoot into tbe ground several times.

Remember you are using a solid with a frontal area smaller that an expaned softpoint you hunt deer with. And shooting an animal many times larger in relation to the energy of the bullet. Even a 223 has many times the foot pounds of energy than what a deer weighs. A 375 has over twice the foot pound energy of what a large cape buffalo weighs. There is no way you can shoulder fire a gun that could produce even half the energy to equal either of these ratios.

Quinn wanted the elephant to drop instantly as in that case the rest will ussually just leave. And elephant hunting and the shooting of an elephant is just plain different. I feel strongly about the importance of hunting elephant, but equally about the seriousness of killing such a majestic animal. They have a larger brain and are much older than any other large brained animal... The hunter needs to have more respect and be more conscientious than with other animals... It is an honor, a privalage, and carries extra responsibility to hunt elephant. Dare i say it even requires carrying a bit of a burden. Yet it is a great experience I would like to repeat some day.

 

[TDBall]

I don't want my PH taking a backup shot if he doesn't have to. Of course, I've hunted with him multiple times, he's visited me in the states, and is essentially like an uncle to my son. So he knows what I can and cannot do with a rifle. Still, if he insisted on a backup shot, I would respect his opinion, we'd talk it over and come to a mutually agreeable plan. Bottom line is that if I put my first shot where it needs to be, his shot will be unnecessary and it is by all rights my kill. If I put it in the wrong place, I'll likely thank him for the second.

If one decides to go on a dangerous game hunt as a first hunt in Africa, I think he is missing out on a lot of the fun. Why start with a leopard or buffalo? That gemsbok may be anticlimactic after that. But start with the gemsbok and it doesn't take anything away from the leopard. Better to start with the plains game and save the bigger stuff for later unless you have cancer or something and legitimately only have one chance at a dream.

Also, I personally would want to have a good working relationship with my PH before going after dangerous game with him. I imagine he feels the same way.

I agree for the most part, excepting the first hunt being for PG. I've only hunted Africa once, this past July, and I went for buffalo with PG secondary. I suppose it's more a personal thing, but I do get your reasoning.

I went to Dallas to find someone to hunt with, and found him the first year. The second year I went to Dallas, we already had a growing relationship which was made stronger. We understood beforehand that I wanted to do the shooting, and my PH would only shoot as necessary.

I was able to take a blue wildebeest and a warthog before we got to buffalo. I think being able to take a couple of animals prior to hunting buffalo made a good bit of difference building a working relationship, as did shooting "sight in" targets on arrival.

When it came time for buffalo, I put one in him and he dropped in his tracks but wasn't still, so I put another in him straight away, reloaded, went closer and put two more in him as he was still moving.

It turned out the first shot was good going through the heart, but I didn't know that at the time.

The point is we spent time together building a relationship before the hunt and a good shot was made so there wasn't a need for follow up on the part of the PH. Things could have just as easily gone the other way.

As a matter of fact, from all I've heard and read, I was quite surprised to see the buff drop as it did and would have expected my PH to shoot if it hadn't.

I don't think hunting DG on my first go took anything at all away from my experience. I went to Africa for the experience, more than the hunt, if that makes any sense. I wasn't concerned about taking any animals since I was fairly certain that would happen and I didn't have a bucket list I felt obligated to fill. I went with no preconceived notions of how things should be, but ready to accept things as they were. I think that left me free to see, smell, hear and touch all that was new while not feeling any pressure to make a kill. Having almost three weeks to hunt also helped a great deal.

Shortly before leaving Africa, I was planning on going back in the not too distant future. Circumstances are now such that I may not be able to return any time soon, if ever.

I'm grateful I went for buffalo when I did.

David

 

[BRICKBURN]

...................... ......... He will however not allow you to commit suicide on his watch by doing stupid things and costing him his License and livelihood in the process.
..................

I guess you can get to see them all.

 

[Hank2211]

Don't want to hijack the thread but I think buffalo is a great animal for a first safari. Doesn't usually interfere with plains game, and if done properly, shows African trackers at their best. Plus, it can usually be depended upon to be exciting.

Leopard on the other hand I would wait for a second or later safari. You do get to shoot some plains game, but bait animals generally, you will usually spend hours every day in a truck visiting baits and sitting in blinds, and the hours are generally a bit odd.